The SB Cruiser : Amberwolf's 2WD Heavy Cargo Trike & Dog Carrier

Yeah - I didn't read the label for the name. I recognized/noticed the design and already know this is a "Stadium Chair" brand chair. This is the chair I always recommend to club players because it is super sturdy, durable, and plenty comfortable. The main negative is that they are heavy. They also have an extra wide version for folks with larger backsides.

This one seems to be wide enough for me, thankfully (a couple I had before were not quite).

But it isn't "deep" enough; the rear crossbar is definitely going to have to be modified one way or another--it isn't a battering ram on my tailbone, but it does press on it unless I scoot forward just a tad, which is a bit awkward, and not being able to lean against the back of the seat very well.

On intersections with the "waves" in them, the series of large bumps that makes does still hit my tailbone with the crossbar a bit. (or rather, vice-versa)

The most likely "easy" fix for this is to simply unlace the seat canvas off of it, then cut the rear crossbar off, and move it back an inch or so, to just behind the hinge point for the seat back, welding the crossbar to that point instead. Then relace the seat canvas on it; there should be enough lacing length (and canvas) to move it back that far. Shouldn't take too long to do, either, might do it tomorrow.

12 mile ride yesterday for shopping trip rounds preparing for the week's activities, and testing the new seat, which other than the tailbone / support rod interference issue, is GREAT.

Didn't get that fixed yet, but will be doing some stuff on the trike requiring some disassembly anyway, today or tomorrow most likely, and will probably do it then.


Power usage on the trip was about 53wh/mile, roughly 1Ah/mile (bit more), at a cruising speed of a hair under 20MPH for everything but the parking lots and the triple dozen stops/starts along the way (most of them in the couple miles thru Metrocenter itself, on the way from and to my house.

Most likely I'll need to go up the same way again a few days from now, so if I remember, I'll take the canopy off and see what it's like without the drag from that thing, under what's predicted to be basically the same weather conditions.


Stuff to do to teh trike if there's time this week (cuz i also have a lot of yardwork and housework put off due to holidaze exhaustion, and it *has* to get done now). I also have to finish up my brother's trike enough to be rideable, and that's at least a few days of work.

The stuff on my trike is in the approximate order I'm most likely to get them done in:

-- fix the rear seat support rod/tailbone interference issue

-- rebuild the leftside inboard dropout/clamp to a better design, like RTIII discussed some posts above this one

-- modify the seatbox so the front edge is no longer slanted back, but is a vertical edge, for more storage (and more efficient space usage), since the front edge of the seat is out that far overhanging the box anyway.

--finish the seatbox wood panelling (there's still two boards I never got cut and installed), and sand and seal/coat it with the stuff I got last year for the purpose, when I built it.

-- add rim brake mounts to the rear wheel frames, then run cables, splitter, and a lever for that. (probably use the same lever as the ebrake switch does, since its' also for both rear wheels).

--possibly modify the frame around the rear wheels to accomodate disc brakes. I have motorcycle rotors and hydraulic calipers and levers (one foot, one hand), though I'd have to come up with hoses and fluid and a bleed system. Probably not a project to finish this week, but it could get started.

-- modify the chainline and IGH mounts, maybe add a tensioner, maybe move the transfer axle (that goes from the center chainline to the lefthand drive wheel) downward a bit so the cargo deck doesn't have it's "hump" in there (only about an inch but it gets in teh way sometimes) and so the chainline might not have to go thru the seatbox, and go under it instead. (would require moving the IGH mount down under the main tube; that might not fit with curb/driveway/speedbump clearance)

-- see about getting those ex-traffic-light 1-foot-wide red lights rebuilt into taillights/etc. (is a lot of work, cutting traces inside and modifying for 12vdc instead of 120vac operation, or figuring out the converter inside to run off my traction pack's 14s NMC voltage range, plus relays to let the 12v switch system control that).

-- make a removable mount for the old motorcycle windshield, to see what that does for my wh/mile. Also so it can be used on cold/rainy days for a bit more comfort, and removed on normal days (unless it's needed for significant efficiency increases, assuming it does anything in that department).

-- Make a (weather sealed) battery tray to move the EIG cells in a "thin" layer under the trike's seatbox and cargo deck, and/or in side-mounted boxes at the top of the "front triangle" just below the "toptube" under the tiller. More weight up front, less to the rear, see how it changes the handling. Gives more cargo space (takes up almost half of my seatbox because of the seatbox shape and the chainline right now, the space around the pack front and left of it can't be used).

Other stuff I can't recall at the moment.

The above was way too ambitious. I didn't get any of it done, though I did get a lot of stuff sorted and cleaned out of the sheds to make room for workshops/etc.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49550&p=1357323#p1357323

If I'm lucky I'll at least get the seat issue fixed tomorrow, but still have to cleanup the mess made during the above, so probably not.

I was reading over your braking issue from the page over and thought it worth mentioning to clean the rim with brake cleaner on a rag reapplied a few times to get it really clean. If thats not it try some quality cables/sheaths.

Braking surfaces have been cleaned various ways (including sanding the rims and the pads to remove any possible contamination), none of them really effective in changing the problem.

As noted in the last post about the brakes,
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/posting.php?mode=reply&f=2&t=67833#pr1351296
the cables and housing *were* changed (albeit to whatever I had laying around that was kink-free), as well as the routing and the brake levers (from two to one, for simultaneous pull of both front brakes) which has significantly improved braking, to the point I can now skid the wheel if I want to.

So the brake problem is resolved, at least in front.

If I can ever afford some, I'd like to try out the Jagwire housing, just to see what difference it might make. Not gonna happen soon, though, because they just cut back hours at work for mysterious reasons, and I am losing about 1/4 of my income, for an indefinite period. So I don't have anything I can afford to spend on non-food non-rent non-utilities now. (and am regretting having spent anything on stuff outside those in teh last few months, even though it wasnt' much, I'll need that money now).


I do still have to add rear mechanical brakes (the electric ones are pretty effective, but when this thing is seriously loaded down, with a trailer full of dog (or a few hundred pounds of dog food) it's not enough if I really had to stop *right now*--could take 20-30 feet or more). If I can make space for them without interfering with the cargo area, I have some MC hydraulic disc brakes (rotors and calipers and hand/foot control) I'd like to put on the rear wheels--*those* should stop me pretty quick even with a load.

Also still ahve to add brakes to the trailer itself (actually to both Mk III and Mk IV, since I still use both of those), activated like surge-brakes are on bigger vehicles so I don't have to deal with cabling up to the handlebars from the trailer, connecting things whenenver I hitch up, etc.


Realistically, there's a never-ending list of "stuff I want to add or change" to any bike, trike, or trailer.

Pretty much anything I have or make can always be adapted better to it's purpose, and sometimes my purposes change. When they change enough, I build a new one, but until that point I just keep modifying the old one.

I have Jag cable around it uses the separate aluminum ferrules in a fragile (imo) clear sheath used with cable and liner.

Top brands like xtr use linear strand with a liner
The trp disk caliper I recently installed specifically suggest linear strand.

Cable Installation
· Compression-less housing, (linear strand) is recommended for SPYRE Mechanical Disc Brakes to yield the best
performance. Sealed ferrules or other sealing systems are not recommended as they may create excess friction
and affect the brake lever return performance. Route housing to minimize tight bends and acute angles.
· Install a small section of spiral wound housing that inserts into the brake lever body and runs inside or outside
the first bend in the bar as shown. (Not all brake lever bodies need a ferrule installed - check with your brake
lever manufacturer’s technical documents to determine if a ferrule is
needed) The ends should be filed flat and
the liner should be open to eliminate friction. Install a double-ended ferrule.
[Fig. C-1 & C-2]
· Spiral wound housing can be cut to accomodate bar widths and preferences, such as hiding the double
ended ferule under bar wrap. Allow spiral wound housing to extend at least 25mm, (1 inch) beyond the handle-
bar bend.
[Fig. C-3]
· Install the compression-less housing on the remainder of the frame or fork. Cut accurately to minimize tight
bends and acute angles to optimize the brake lever feel.

eCue said:

I have Jag cable around it uses the separate aluminum ferrules in a fragile (imo) clear sheath.

Click to expand...

The Jagwire I was looking at (pointed out by Chalo in another thread) uses a kevlar-lined housing, with straight wires (like shifter cable), and the kevlar keeps it from bursting under the tension of braking.

I don't have any direct experience with anything but whatever stuff comes already on bikes I get used, and the Bell brand stuff Dogman bought me some sets of when we started building this trike about 3 years ago (which is the only new cable/housing stuff I've ever had that I can recall).

I've read of a few kinds of the compressionless (straight wire) housing, but the one I see most references to is Jagwire, and the only one I ever remember the name of.

Sounds like its linear strand cable , I was disappointed with the version of Jag brake cable I bought 5 years ago. The case was uber weak period not even compared to anything

This looks like nice cable.



How about a motorcycle Rim with disk brake complete with lever / reservoir

eCue said:

This looks like nice cable.

Click to expand...

Might be; would have to find reviews of it in my application (like on pedicabs or other heavy-cargo haulers).

I wonder why they went with partial-spiral instead of simple straight wires? Makes it not quite as "compressionless" as straight would be.

How about a motorcycle Rim with disk brake complete with lever / reservoir

Click to expand...

I used to think I'd need MC rims, but the 20" rims I'm using now are supposedly higher-end bicycle rims that Zero used on some of the first Zero electric motorcycles. I wish I knew who actually made them. They're wide (50mm+?) and other than not being designed for rim brakes they suit my stuff fine, even with teh heavy loads I have they do ok. Had one damaged by a severe pothole (couldn't see it in the rain) that even a truck driver would've felt going thru it, but it just bent the rim's bead seat edge inward a bit. Eventually (after I'd straightened it) it cracked enough to be unsafe to use. but I'd been running it for a long time after the bend before it failed.

If I could get whole spoked MC or moped wheels with drum brakes in them, I'd love to use those on my trailers--they'd handle anything I would be hauling on there well enough, since presently even bicycle rims work (I just worry about the tires and flats with a heavy load, and the brakes would be nice).

Whenever I get the right parts to build a middrive version of the trike, I'd like to use whole MC or moped wheels with drum brakes there, too. (again, mostly for the tires I can get for them, and the brakes).


If I had anything but crappy lowest-end bicycle disc brakes I'd use them on the trike, but I've already proven them incapable of even significantly slowing the trike, vs even low-to-middle-of-the-road rim brakes made of various brand bits pieced together.

So since I have the MC disc stuff, then as long as it actually works once I put it together, I'll use that if it does the job.

Riding around half a ton of trike, trailer, cargo, and me, down teh road at 15-20MPH, it'd be nice to be able to stop on a dime if I had to, instead of taking at least the length of the whole mess to stop. It's only about half that with just me and the trike and some cargo, so not quite so hard to stop quickly, but it's still a lot of inertia to cancel out.

amberwolf said:

eCue said:

This looks like nice cable.

Click to expand...

Might be; would have to find reviews of it in my application (like on pedicabs or other heavy-cargo haulers).

I wonder why they went with partial-spiral instead of simple straight wires? Makes it not quite as "compressionless" as straight would be.

How about a motorcycle Rim with disk brake complete with lever / reservoir

Click to expand...

I used to think I'd need MC rims, but the 20" rims I'm using now are supposedly higher-end bicycle rims that Zero used on some of the first Zero electric motorcycles. I wish I knew who actually made them. They're wide (50mm+?) and other than not being designed for rim brakes they suit my stuff fine, even with teh heavy loads I have they do ok. Had one damaged by a severe pothole (couldn't see it in the rain) that even a truck driver would've felt going thru it, but it just bent the rim's bead seat edge inward a bit. Eventually (after I'd straightened it) it cracked enough to be unsafe to use. but I'd been running it for a long time after the bend before it failed.

If I could get whole spoked MC or moped wheels with drum brakes in them, I'd love to use those on my trailers--they'd handle anything I would be hauling on there well enough, since presently even bicycle rims work (I just worry about the tires and flats with a heavy load, and the brakes would be nice).

Whenever I get the right parts to build a middrive version of the trike, I'd like to use whole MC or moped wheels with drum brakes there, too. (again, mostly for the tires I can get for them, and the brakes).


If I had anything but crappy lowest-end bicycle disc brakes I'd use them on the trike, but I've already proven them incapable of even significantly slowing the trike, vs even low-to-middle-of-the-road rim brakes made of various brand bits pieced together.

So since I have the MC disc stuff, then as long as it actually works once I put it together, I'll use that if it does the job.

Riding around half a ton of trike, trailer, cargo, and me, down teh road at 15-20MPH, it'd be nice to be able to stop on a dime if I had to, instead of taking at least the length of the whole mess to stop. It's only about half that with just me and the trike and some cargo, so not quite so hard to stop quickly, but it's still a lot of inertia to cancel out.

Click to expand...

The linear strands do have a bend in them but it seem like nice flow not too much of a spun effect. I had to look and see whats up with other brands. I have no idea what my cable does inside as its encased.

These diagrams have same spun looking wires although lightly spun..



The below ones you want to stay far away from.



Im not sure they will solve your issues as its likely the weight your stopping.
I thought of the force you have to stop with hand brakes and wow its a lot of weight buddy. Your hands must be uber strong from braking on the fly that would take force and make heat the two make slip when together.


Im curious if you could add the scooter rotors to your wheels ? and use their levers

eCue said:

The linear strands do have a bend in them but it seem like nice flow not too much of a spun effect.

Click to expand...

I don't know what "spun effect" means, but if it is spiral at all it still isn't compressionless (just less lever travel/force needed to fully compress the housing before braking begins). So they aren't "linear" if they're spiralled, no matter what they call them.

The idea behind the straight wires is *no* lever travel or force is wasted on compressing the housing.

The below ones you want to stay far away from.

Click to expand...

No, they work fine, just like any other housing--they just don't have quite as good a performance as the completely straight compressionless housing would. I happen to have one of the rare circumstances where I could probably get a significant improvement from a change to that type (though I won't know till I can afford to try someday).

I thought of the force you have to stop with hand brakes and wow its a lot of weight buddy. Your hands must be uber strong from braking on the fly

Click to expand...

My hands (and arms) are strong more from holding me up walking with a cane, and working with hand tools in ways they probably weren't meant to be, and dealing with giant dogs, and playing keyboard/guitar and typing a lot.

If they were strong from braking I probably wouldn't have had to go with the single dual-pull lever to get enough force without hurting my hands, vs two leversl.

Im curious if you could add the scooter rotors to your wheels ? and use their levers

Click to expand...

Perhaps you didn't read the whole reply a few posts earlier, but that's exactly what I was talking about (though MC parts, not scooter ones; I dont have any scooter parts like that).

Today was drizzly the entire day (it still is right now, after midnight, probably will be thru tomorrow at least). Since the gloves I have a pair of that let me move my hands in them and don't make them numb from tightness aren't water resistant, (just knit), I didn't want to end up with cold-soaked hands by the time i got to work (or home from work).

I"ve been planning on making "brushguard" style hand covers out of coroplast (or something) for a long time, just like I did on CrazyBIke2 way back when, cuz they worked really well. But I just haven't...whenever I needed them I didn't have time to make them, ad when I had the time I didn't have the need so forgot.

So today, no time as usual, so I just moved the ones off CB2 to SBC (they just ziptie on), and they worked just as well on SBC as they did on CB2--kept my hands dry and (because they also block the wind) much warmer than usual in this kind of weather.


I also still need to add the tops to the rear fender wells, so I don't get the wheelspray from wet road surfaces and puddles coming up over me from behind. :/ I forget about that every time, until I'm on the road and it's too late.

The main reason I haven't done it yet is taht I keep finding myself using parts of the fender frame rails as cargo strap hook points, and I hadn't had a good solution for that yet. I do have some old drawer handles that I used on CrazyBIke2, a whole bag of them, but hadn't run across them until recently--so what will happen (when I have time) is bolt handles thru the frame to the outboard side of the fenders, between the fenders and the "chalkboards" that are magnetically-held to the sides, then cut and bolt the boards to the top of the fender frames.

When i think about it more it makes better sense and possible cheaper to use junkyard / / someones backyard somewhere with dozens of scrap bike motorcycles to pick over for cheap wheels.
Two rear wheels with disc brake and a front disc for the front , ideally matching Honda / Yamaha or what ever rims.

Dirt bike rims come to mind using all the cables too

edit to add , your idea to use rear drum for the ease of installation and actuation makes more sense then disc's

I've read with curiosity the discussion about the brake cables and their sleeves.

I'm pretty skeptical about the purported issue, or maybe I don't understand it. Is the issue that you don't want to lose any lever travel in starting the braking effect? You're saying the cables stretch AND the housings compress, significantly enough it's an issue? ... Curious...

"Linear" construction of tubes for a brake cable make _no_sense_at_all_ because the tube won't be able to support much compression without failing. This is why they're typically made of square cross-section wire in a very tightly wound pitch. If you have wire stretch issues you have too small diameter wire for the application! There's just no two ways about it.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about it:

"There is some controversy surrounding the existence of the phenomenon known as "cable stretch". Newly installed cables can seem to elongate, requiring readjustment. While it is generally agreed that inner wires actually stretch very little - if at all - housings and linings may compress slightly, and all parts may generally "settle in". Lightweight assemblies such as those used on bicycles are more susceptible to this phenomenon."

Click to expand...

This and much more on this topic available here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable

I have the compressionless housing on my Yuba cargo bike, it's a fairly long run of cable and I noticed a profound difference once I installed it, want to replace all my standard housing on other bikes with it. It's about $40.00 for a 10 yard roll of the stuff. How long is the run on the rear brake of SBC?

RTIII said:

. Is the issue that you don't want to lose any lever travel in starting the braking effect?

Click to expand...

Yes. But there's no way (short of adding higher tension retraction springs on the arms) to pretension teh cable/housing enough to prevent that, without changing the housing out.

I've actually been keeping the spring thing in mind for a while now as I sort stuff in the junk I"m tossing out/recycling from the sheds, because I'm willing to try that, too (and it's a "free" test in that it'd be parts I already have, costing nothing but time).

"Linear" construction of tubes for a brake cable make _no_sense_at_all_ because the tube won't be able to support much compression without failing.

Click to expand...

That's what the kevlar housing is for. (otherwise, it *would* burst)

As I said, though, I haven't actually used any yet, so couldn't say how well it would work, but it's reported to make a noticeable difference. I'd certainly try it out if I had money to spend.

I'm tempted to use some derailer housing just to test the theory, but at present the front brake will skid the wheel under most conditions (at least with the unloaded trike--still not tested with Kirin in the cargo area and Yogi on the trailer) if I set the lever for that and squeeze hard enough; can't get better braking on that wheel than that.

Once I move more weight forward (at least lighting pack in the front triangle or somewhere up there, possibly part of the traction pack, or add the middrive motor idea just behind the cranks) then that'll change braking characteristics and maybe it won't be able to skid it anymore, and I'll worry about it then.

I expect that with Kirin and Yogi it'd actually skid easier, because weight will be removed from the front wheel during a stop by the trailer pushing down on the hitch, and Kirin will typically have about half of her weight on either side of the rear axle, making that about neutral. So better rear brakes and/or trailer brakes would be needed to fix that issue.

If you have wire stretch issues you have too small diameter wire for the application! There's just no two ways about it.

Click to expand...

I don't know if I have "wire stretch" issues, because the brakes work much better now with the single run (per brake) of undistorted housing in wide curves (previously at least one of my housings was two pieces butted up against each other at the ferrules, as I didn't have a single run long enough for it that I wasn't using elsewhere, and both housings had too-sharp bends in their routings).

And the single (dual-pull) lever to pull both at the same time (since my hand can't easily wrap around and apply the right pressure to two separate ones on the same side, especially on bad days when things are hurting).

I forget if I changed the cables, too, but I probably did because the other ones would've been too short for the new routing.

But I can still feel (and see) the housing move/compress, just a bit, over the approximately five feet from brake lever to brake arms. On a shorter brake cable run, with less total pressure needed to cause full braking (less inertia to overcome), it would probably be less of a problem.

If I had thicker cable and housing to go with it, I'd use it, but I don't.


Side note: Back on CrazyBike2, there was a time one strand in the cable snapped, and it reduced my braking so much it was scary. So I know the thickness of the cable does matter.

(though it made much less difference when the same thing has happened on regular bikes back when I weighed 50-60lbs less, for something like half the weight to be stopped, which tells me that it does take significantly more braking cable force to be able to stop a heavier bike)



Regarding the settling-in process, I generally do that before even testing it out--I just set the tension as high as I can, with pads already on the rims with no lever squeeze, then squeeze as hard as I can, then readjust, until I can't squeeze the lever significantly with the pads already on the rims. Then I reset it to normal operation, and generally don't have to worry about anything changing as I ride from that point on, other than pad wear.

(plus if anything is going to break, I"ll probably have ti happen right then instead of on the road).


However, I do think that over time something happens with the braking mechanism that makes it less effective, and most likely it's the cable itself actually stretching (meaning, too thin a wire), as braking on this trike is a problem I've fixed repeatedly in different ways over the past 3 years, with no permanent solution yet. Part of it is adding weight to the trike, as I improve it's usability it gets more stuff permanently made part of it, but the rest of it has to be something else.


Thus, I'd like to add mechanical rear brakes, and I'm still working on a pair of Lebowski controllers that can both do "EABS" actively-braking the rear wheels (only one of the generics I have now does that), and add trailer brakes, etc. More braking can't hurt.

Raisedeyebrows said:

I have the compressionless housing on my Yuba cargo bike, it's a fairly long run of cable and I noticed a profound difference once I installed it, want to replace all my standard housing on other bikes with it. It's about $40.00 for a 10 yard roll of the stuff. How long is the run on the rear brake of SBC?

Click to expand...

I don't have mechanical rear brakes on SBC yet, but it'd probably be something like 15-20 feet with the routing over the bars, down the tiller, back along the frame, etc., if I do put cable-operated brakes there.

The front brakes (a pair of sets) are about 5 feet for each one (meaning about 10 feet of housing total, maybe a bit more).

When I was looking around (just before my hours got cut by 1/4) at the stuff, thinking I might try it out, I was seeing about the same price as you, and figured one roll would probably do all the cables on the trike plus surge brakes for the trailer(s), and leave me enough to do at least a Y-cable type for the rear brakes (one cable for the longest part of the run, then split to a Y between the two rear wheels.



Side note:

Originally when I built SBC, I added cable stops so I wouldn't have to use housing for most of the brake cable run lengths, to reduce housing friction and compression problems, and I can put cable stops in to help with that on the rear brakes since much of the path is completely straight sections, with a few curves needed in between. But I can only take out a couple of feet at most of the front brake run that way, because of the angles of things on the handlebars, tiller, and headtube/etc area.

At some areas that require housing and curves, I might be able to get away with using pulleys as guides, instead, if I can make some metal ones (plastic will just rot in the sun here), either on the lathe or drill press or by hand. If I can do this then I can shorten the cable runs, too, by potentially a couple of feet.

I found the foot control and one of the calipers for the MC hydraulics. The rotors and the other caliper and the hand control I know I just saw moving stuff last week but it must be in the stacks of stuff I had to just put back in the sheds unsorted.

The rotor in the pics here is off a different MC, and may be too thick (around 1/4") to use in these calipers (but it has a nice tophat adapter that would let the caliper fit between it and a hubmotor, as it's around the same diameter as my MXUS's (maybe a tad bigger). I dont have a caliper specific to it, so if ti is too thick for the calipers I have, it's not of much use at present, except as a weigth to hold stuff down.

Damaged the rightside rim today on the way to work, from a pothole.

On my trip to the store tomorrow I"ll try to get pics of the hole. PIcs of the damage are at the end of this post.

The hole itself is more than a spread-handspan deep; it's where the bus stops and starts on teh side of the road, and where water runoff from sprinklers sinks into the dirt under the pavement (which happens a lot faster and worse now than the past couple years, simply because more pavement is missing down to the dirt). It's close to two feet across now, from the concrete curb out into the street.

I've been riding around it, farther and farther into the lane, for a long time; it's on my way to work every day, watching it grow. Earlier this week a spraypainted circle was put around it adn a few other spots on teh road, showing they're going to work on it sometime "soon" (weeks, months, who knows), but there's a plan to get around to it at least.

But it wasn't soon enough for me.


I rode around it as usual, but not far enough--the edge, probably a handspan or more, broke away and collapsed downward under the right rear tire, just far and fast enough to cause the trike to slide a bit rightward, into the hole, causing the right wheel to hit REALLY hard on the sharp far edge of the not-yet-broken asphalt. The impact took about 6MPH off the top of my speed, taking me down to almost 10MPH instantly, and yanking me rightward almost to the curb. (from waht had been at least two feet away).

I could feel the difference in the ride but with traffic couldn't stop, and cars waiting to pull out of every driveway blocked me from being able to get off the road to check anything, so I just finished the last 1/4 mile or so up to work, went in and parked, then took a look at it.

I could see the rim is bent inward at the bead seat quite a lot at the impact point, and spokes are loose so the rim is flatted a bit there too. But no broken spokes, and no other obvious damage. I had no time to deal with any of it before or after work, and didnt' get to have a lunch at all, so had to just ride home like that. Went fine, but it felt like the rear end had come apart because of the wobbliness due to the loose spokes and bent rim.

When I got home, I tipped the trike up and leaned it on my cane, and got the pics below, which show where a couple of the spoke head washers went missing on spokes close tot he impact, and the actual bead seat flange where the bend is. It's bent so far in that it's cracked along the sharper area of the bend, but the tire's stayed seated ok.

ONly the outboard side is damaged like that, AFAICT, so that's a plus.

I'm not going to do like i did with the last bent rim and try to rebend it straight, because that precipitated complete failure of that area of that other rim, as the bead seat fractured away and pulled off the rest of the rim starting at that point. This one *might* continue to be useable as-is, once I retension the spokes and see about re-rounding the wheel that way.

If not, I have just *one* more rim that's presently on the X5304 motor that used to be the right wheel here (until the axle broke from the last unavoidable bad pothole). After that, I'm back to bicycle rims that don't really take this kind of loading real well. :/ (hours were cut back by 1/4 at work, so buying new ones is out of the budget until that changes, or I get a second job, or win the lottery). Probably I won't need any new ones for a long while anyway, and I might get the redesign of the rear end to use cambered 26" wheels (like the Raine Trike) done by then anyway, negating the need for this size wheel on the trike.

Those are some bad-ass spokes you got there. A lesser-spoked wheel wouldn't have made it at all! What are they, 4MM in diameter?! Or do they only look larger than "normal" in the photos? Looks like the right sized washer could help save the pulled-out holes.

IF you had an oxygen acetylene torch, you could heat it up, then bend it back - sans tire / tube, of course. Trying to do it cold will likely crack it out. ...A map gas torch MIGHT be good enough, but you'll have to focus the heat right on the exact spot and give it time to heat the entire area. Otherwise, an oxy / acetyl torch can get it too hot so be careful. ...I'd do it while laced because it'll give you a good way to hold on to the rim, and I'd use a "Crescent wrench" to get as perfect a grip on the damaged part as possible, possibly using two or even three to get as much width on the damaged area as possible to pull it all out at once. "Flange vice grips" could also do the job.

RTIII said:

Those are some bad-ass spokes you got there. A lesser-spoked wheel wouldn't have made it at all! What are they, 4MM in diameter?! Or do they only look larger than "normal" in the photos?

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Those are actually just 13g Sapim spokes from Grin. But they are pretty good, since none of them failed even with a hit like that.

I suspect having the thinner spokes is more what helped the wheel survive, being well-tensioned, but they were all loose (rattly-loose!) after the hit.

Looks like the right sized washer could help save the pulled-out holes.

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Yeah, I found some washers in my "pop rivet junk" box that worked on the four spokes that pulled thru. They're not quite the same as the ones I started out with, but good enough.

I also had to swap out four of the nipples that had stripped threads. One of these was on a spoke that pulled thru its' washer, but the other three were still fine, which might be why they stripped threads.

All of the problems are within four spokes of the dent in the rim, and all of them on the outboard side where the dent is.

IF you had an oxygen acetylene torch, you could heat it up, then bend it back - sans tire / tube, of course. Trying to do it cold will likely crack it out. ...A map gas torch MIGHT be good enough, but you'll have to focus the heat right on the exact spot and give it time to heat the entire area. Otherwise, an oxy / acetyl torch can get it too hot so be careful. ...I'd do it while laced because it'll give you a good way to hold on to the rim, and I'd use a "Crescent wrench" to get as perfect a grip on the damaged part as possible, possibly using two or even three to get as much width on the damaged area as possible to pull it all out at once. "Flange vice grips" could also do the job.

Click to expand...

I'd have to come up with something "special" to get a grip on teh area, because it's bent very far down on the inside, too close to the inside rim surface to fit any gripping tools I have under it. Might have 1/4" at best. I've got a pic from the repair today to post when I remember where I set the memory card.

Best I have here for heating is a little bit of MAPP in a bottle or two a neighbor gave me. I have a big bottle of "BBQ propane", maybe half full, but since the BBQ itself was stolen after the fire I don't have the connector to mount to it (it's bigger than on the little torch bottles). I also ahve at least one little BBQ propane bottle that's full and another that's 1/4 full, and a "torch kit" from Harbor Freight that has a few tips for it including a 'pipe heater", and a fanned-out flame tip.

But...I wonder if heating the aluminum rim enough for this is going to weaken the rim enough to leave it even more vulnerable to failure?

Also, it already has some cracking visible along the bend, so that will likely propagate even if I could heat it properly and bend it.

I have a feeling I'd be better off leaving it alone until it becomes a problem.


If I had gas and aluminum wire to use in my welder, I could reweld the rim on the other one that's broken, and reuse it for whatever it's capable of handling. (and fix this one when it does finally break). I know it wouldn't be nearly as strong as it used to be, but it'd be worth a try.



Anyway, for today, it's fixed well enough to work:

As noted, I had to replace four nipples, and four lost washers.

Because the rim is flatted a bit on the dented side, I retensioned everything to try to pull it closer to round with the tire on it and inflated (rather than making just the rim round), but there's still a good 2-3mm of difference from low to high spots.

Since that didn't leave much spoke/nipple msot places, it's got a lot of side-to-side difference, and reminds me of an old vinyl record left in the sun. But it works, and it rides ok even with a heavy (80lb) grocery load, including turns with side-loading.

I also had to replace four lost cover screws on the inboard cover again. These have loosened up even with loctite the entire time I've had this motor, so I tighten them up as often as needed, keeping an eye on them every day (if I remember). These were all tight the day the damage happened, so the wobbliness from the bent rim and loose spokes probably helped the screws work themselves completely out by the time I got home that day. There isnt' any particular pattern to which ones come loose, AFAICT, except it is almost always inboard cover screws (wire-side), on this HSR3548.

Although I've read most of this fascinating thread over time can you refresh us on what type of rim you're using on the back? That way I can keep an eye peeled for any useable ones at the bike co-op when I pass through there.

amberwolf said:

But...I wonder if heating the aluminum rim enough for this is going to weaken the rim enough to leave it even more vulnerable to failure?

Also, it already has some cracking visible along the bend, so that will likely propagate even if I could heat it properly and bend it.

I have a feeling I'd be better off leaving it alone until it becomes a problem.

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_If_ it was only bent, then the heat wouldn't likely weaken it because you're not heating it beyond a critical temperature, but if it has cracks already, it's a lost cause except possibly for welding. Even then, with your equipment - a wire feed mig, I'm guessing? - I wouldn't expect it to work out. You really need to tig it, and it really matters that any filler is exactly the right alloy as aluminum alloys aren't as forgiving as ferrous based alloys. (Of course, you could always get lucky.) Given what you have said that I'm quoting here, I think you're right; leave it alone and replace it when you can. It's unlikely to work out and you can save your time and resources (torch fuel) for something more promising.

...That said, if you do want to try it, you'll need to heat the whole thing to something like 250F, then, with the bent area already straightened, you can then do a weld. The reason you heat the whole thing is because if you don't you can end up with the boundaries of where you've heated it for welding being more brittle. The welding will also proceed more easily and flow better. But you need either a big oven or a glass-mat or something that you can keep the heat in with. A buddy of mine does this with large AL objects he has to weld - heat it and cover it with fiberglass matting to retain the heat while you go around and heat the whole thing bit at a time. Sometimes he hits the top of a steel table with a torch to warm it, then puts the object on top of that with the large glass-mat blanket. ...It's also smart to let it cool down the same way - leave it alone with the blanket over it and come back a few hours later. This helps ensure it doesn't get brittle from cooling too quickly.

It also seems dubious a simple rim like that is valuable enough to go to all that trouble. But maybe you have more time and access to the tools and it's worth saving the cash.