Single-speed track stealth ultralight

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zro-1   1 kW

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 23 2018 8:29pm

I'm going to be opening my motor over the weekend to inspect the halls and wiring to them inside the shell. If you've been following the discussion in papa's Q100H autopsy and modify thread, you'll see that it appears that I received the wrong motor.

Between getting a shell with defective spoke holes, the difference in the motor codes on the original and replacement shells, the wrong gearing, and the halls not working with the Phaserunner despite the additional work I did with the wiring, I suspect I got a motor off of the reject pile.

Do you guys know of another motor that is as small as the Q100s are? I've found a motor on Bafang's website that's really close (the G380), but I haven't found it for sale anywhere, even on aliexpress.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 23 2018 10:04pm

I never showed what I did for the throttle.

I ended up using Grin's new slim half twist throttle. Its really nice as far as half twist throttles go. I'm not sure I'm super happy with it. It seems like I have to shift my grip too much and put extra strain on my wrist with a half twist throttle. I'm thinking a thumb or button throttle may be more ergonomic in the long run. Still, it's very clean...

throttle-1.jpg
closeup of the throttle
throttle-1.jpg (64.11 KiB) Viewed 1838 times

You can also see how it compares to a 3-speed shifter which is on my other bike.
throttle-2.jpg
how it compares to the non-throttle side
throttle-2.jpg (62.42 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
throttle-3.jpg
closeup of how I routed the wire
throttle-3.jpg (38.86 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 24 2018 2:54am

Thumb strain the gamers enemy also effects ebikers especially those who bike alot :D

I have been using a left thumb throttle situated so when the hand is closed the thumb can hold the throttle wide open naturally reducing thumb strain. Works great that and cruise
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Feb 24 2018 3:35am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 23 2018 10:04pm
I'm thinking a thumb or button throttle may be more ergonomic in the long run.
YOu can get thumb tabs for halftwist throttles. Some are simple plastic stuff that snaps on. Some from the mtoorcycle world are rubber clamp-on stuff (actually meant for "cruise control" but they'll work as thumbtabs too. ;)

I can ask Cvin where she got hers if you're interested.

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 24 2018 12:12pm

Yeah, I have a thumb throttle on my other bike and it's been nice as far as ergonomics. I felt it was a bit too bulky for what I'm trying to do with this build though.

Amberwolf: That's a great idea! I remember those from my motorcyling days. It could be a good option as I could take it off when I'm going on shorter rides, and put it on when the ride will be longer or more technical. (yes urban roads can be technical :D ) I'll have to check those out. Thanks for the idea!

For fun, I'd like to make a button throttle set up where it has two buttons, one is 33% throttle, the other is 66% throttle, and holding both is 99% throttle. I should really say torque instead of throttle though since I'm using a Phaserunner and the throttle just controls how many amps are delivered. So 1/3 torque, 2/3 torque and full torque.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Feb 24 2018 2:05pm

This should work, but it's only a 30-second thought, so I might've missed something:

Setup a voltage source that equals your full throttle voltage as a resistor divider across the throttle output. Four resistors in series between throttle ground and throttle power.

The top and bottom calculated for your minimum throttle voltage and maximum, and the two middle ones in a 1:2 ratio to each other (so the bottom one gets 1/3 of the voltage across it, and the top one gets 2/3).

Wire your buttons across those two resistors, one button on each resistor.

Throttle signal out to PR connects to top of the bottom resistor (last one before ground).

No buttons pressed = no throttle.

Bottom button pressed = 1/3 throttle.

Top button pressed = 2/3 throttle.

Both buttons pressed = full throttle.

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 25 2018 1:06am

I found this super tiny Xiongda YTW-06 rear motor on Aliexpress. I've reached out to them to see if it's available to fit 120mm forks.
HTB1s9OkoxrI8KJjy0Fpq6z5hVXaT.jpg
It looks like it's got 17.5:1 ratio gearing, and it has a side-exit cable.

https://xiongdamotor.en.alibaba.com/pro ... 56e4LJO9jS
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 25 2018 1:23am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 23 2018 8:29pm
I'm going to be opening my motor over the weekend to inspect the halls and wiring to them inside the shell.
Before you remove the hall PCB, be sure and mark its position. The PCB retaining screw holes are slotted. (See image #7 in my thread)
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 25 2018 3:49pm

Thanks Papa.

So I got a good look at the halls today. Everything looks sound visually. I didn't see any loose, frayed, pinched or otherwise damaged wiring. I also didn't see anything weird with the hall sensors or their soldering to the sensor carrier board. Unfortunately, the Paserunner still can't read the halls. So at this point I'm just going to forget it and use the motor sensorless.

I'm now looking to see if I can find a Xiongda YTW-06 or Bafang G380 to eventually replace this motor down the road. The Q100 seems like a decent enough motor, but the issues I've had with this have left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't want to risk ordering another Q100H and get another defective wrong part again.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by wturber » Feb 26 2018 1:32pm

Interesting motor. I found this thread on it.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads ... tor.27981/
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 26 2018 2:12pm

Thanks for sharing that post over on pedelecs.co.uk, that was really helpful!

The motor looks amazing for my type of build. I'm chatting with "Bonnie" on alibaba about getting one with 120mm fork spacing. I will start a new thread for the motor if I can get one ordered.

EDIT: One big downside reading the other forum, it looks like this motor is only sensorless, which doesn't really work for me. I've asked Bonnie if halls can be added. If not, I may just suck it up and hope my luck changes and order a 201RPM Q100H. We'll see, and I'll keep you all posted.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by wturber » Feb 26 2018 7:40pm

If you read to the end, or read the branched thread, I'm pretty sure one of the posters said that a sensor equipped version was being delivered after Dec. 2017. Double check that I didn't misread though.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Feb 27 2018 2:23am

Regarding the halls in the present motor, did you ever test the actual voltages on them? (I skimmed back thru the thread but didn't see a test if there was one).

If it's JST at the Phaserunner end, you can insert a voltmeter's black lead into the ground of the connector, and then put the red one into the 5v of the connector. I'd put htem in on the motor side of the connector, with the motor plugge dinto the controller, and power on. This test doesnt' work unless it's all connected.

You should get get around 5v.

Then move the red lead to the first hall signal wire, and spin the motor wheel bakcwards by hand. You should see an alternating ~5v / no volts as you spin it. (you won't see this spinning it forwards becuase it'sa geared hub with a freewheeling clutch).

Do the same for the other two hall wires.

If one or more fo them doesn't change, then it could be either a bad connection at the controller-to-motor wiring, if it stays at no volts, or a bad sensor, if it stays at 5v. (or it could be a bad connection to the hall inside the motor if it stays at 5v).

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 28 2018 12:24am

If you try switching wires and the the halls still do not work I would Send the motor back :D
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 28 2018 5:45pm

wturber wrote:
Feb 26 2018 7:40pm
If you read to the end, or read the branched thread, I'm pretty sure one of the posters said that a sensor equipped version was being delivered after Dec. 2017. Double check that I didn't misread though.
You are correct. The YTW-06 does come with halls now.
amberwolf wrote:
Feb 27 2018 2:23am
Regarding the halls in the present motor, did you ever test the actual voltages on them? (I skimmed back thru the thread but didn't see a test if there was one).
No, I haven't tested them at the connector. I thought testing them was more involved than the method you described, but that way is so easy I can do it tonight. I'll post the outcome of the test. Thank you for the info.
eCue wrote:
Feb 28 2018 12:24am
If you try switching wires and the the halls still do not work I would Send the motor back :D
If shipping wasn't as much as the motor cost, I probably would have done that when I figured out that the spoke holes were drilled wrong. :(

---

Still, that YTW-06 motor looks really promising. The cost is so low, I wouldn't mind having it as an option even if I get the Q100H sorted out. I've been chatting with Bonnie, and we almost have a configuration put together. Here's what I'm working on:
  • Fork width: 120mm (single-speed freewheel)
  • Color: black (polished silver is also available)
  • Voltage: 36v (or maybe 48v once I find out what the differences are. Its rated 24/36/48V 250W so maybe the amp-handling would be different?)
  • Hall Sensors: installed
  • Gearing: 17.5:1
  • Weight: 1.4kg (3.09 Lbs)
  • Motor cable length: 43cm (to run cleanly right to the Phaserunner at the BB)
  • Spoke holes: 36 (32 wasn't an option)
  • Cost: $75 USD
  • Shipping: $60 USD (door to door via express)
Despite what the motor is rated for, I still plan on running it on 48V & 17-20A, or 960W max in the Phaserunner since it only needs you to tell it maximum watts and not maximum amps.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 01 2018 9:32pm

I tested the halls using the technique amberwolf told me, and they are definitely bad. When I test the hall connector on the Phaserunner I get a nice steady 5.3 volts between the positive and negative pins. When I hook it up to the motor, and I read the voltage from the back of the pins on the motor cable side, I get a fluctuating voltage between 50 and 72 mV. I also get that across the yellow and blue wires also. I get nothing off the green wire. I tired spinning the wheel in reverse with the voltmeter leads in various positions, and the reading never changed. It was always 50-72 mV across red, blue, and yellow, and 0 V off of green.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Mar 01 2018 11:30pm

zro-1 wrote:
Mar 01 2018 9:32pm
When I test the hall connector on the Phaserunner I get a nice steady 5.3 volts between the positive and negative pins.
Do you mean across the red and black? If so, tha'ts just the hall supply voltage, and should read about that.

Or do you mean from each of the hall wires B Y G to ground (black)? If so, this is the pullup voltage from the controller, so it should read about what you get.

You should test both, if you haven't already done that.

When I hook it up to the motor, and I read the voltage from the back of the pins on the motor cable side, I get a fluctuating voltage between 50 and 72 mV.

Which pins? The red and black? Or each of the B Y G to black?

If the latter, does it fluctuate back and forth between those two values as you spin the wheel *backwards*, or does it just do that just sitting there?

If it's during rotation, it might mean the hall sensors are sort of working, but may not be reaching the pullup voltage on the controller side of the connector (bad crimp or connection, spread contacts, etc).

If just sitting there, it may mean there's no connection to the halls in the motor. (you can do a continuity test from the connector pins to the halls, but that requires opening up the motor again).

I also get that across the yellow and blue wires also. I get nothing off the green wire.
By "across" do you mean from each of the B Y G wires in turn with the red voltmeter lead, and the black lead to ground (black hall wire)? (this is the test you want to do)


Or do you mean with the red vm lead on one color of the BYG, and the black on another BYG? (this test doesn't really give useful info)

I tired spinning the wheel in reverse with the voltmeter leads in various positions, and the reading never changed. It was always 50-72 mV across red, blue, and yellow, and 0 V off of green.
Then it sounds like there is no connection betweeen the motor side of the connector and the controller side of the connector. Either the pins are bent or they are being pushed back as you plug them into each other, so that they don't make contact with the controller side pins, or spread out, etc.


You can also test from the back of the controller side of the connnector, with the motor plugged in, and see if there is voltage on each pin with the red vm lead, while the black vm lead is on ground of the same side (black wire).

If there is no voltage this way, but there is voltage when you unplug the motor from it, then something in the motor or wiring is shorting out the controller hall wires and/or power.

If there is normal voltage this way, then there is a connnection problem between the two.

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 02 2018 8:45pm

Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear in my testing report.

When I tested the open hall connection at the Phaserunner, I only tested across red and black pins. That was where I got the steady 5.3V. I didn't think testing each of the sensor pins was needed on the Phaserunner since they would only read what the halls were returning. Being that the supply voltage from the Phaserunner was fine, I didn't test the controller connection beyond that point.

When I tested with the hall connector closed—from the motor side of the connection—I kept the voltmeter's negative lead on the black wire pin-crimp. I then moved the positive lead to the various power and signal wires.

The voltage fluctuation I was getting was with the wheel static. In fact, spinning the wheel backwards (to rotate the core) had no effect at all in the voltage readings. The fluctuating low voltage was present regardless of static wheel position or active rotation, and did not vary in any relational way that I could tell to the motor's pole position. In other words the rate of fluctuation did not change and I spun the wheel faster or slower.
Then it sounds like there is no connection between the motor side of the connector and the controller side of the connector. Either the pins are bent or they are being pushed back as you plug them into each other, so that they don't make contact with the controller side pins, or spread out, etc.
It'll be very easy to check the pins in the connector to be sure they're making good contact. They seemed ok when I was testing the voltages, but it's simple enough to pop them out and inspect them.

Thanks again for all the tips and testing advice amberwolf. I appreciate it.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 02 2018 8:54pm

I feel I should add here that my experience communicating with Bonnie at Xiongda through Alibaba has been a very pleasant experience. She's provided full information to all of my questions and asked for my answers to things I hadn't thought of. She even went so far as to confirm the cable length and connector types I wanted in the order. That attention to detail was very refreshing.

As long as the motor isn't total garbage—which everything I've read tells me its not—then I may have a new personal favorite brand motor.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 18 2018 3:42pm

I'm planning on changing out my standard bars for some bull horn bars. In anticipation of that change, I figured out how to make a 3-button throttle today. The idea is that the three buttons would be next to each other on the bars. You press button-1 to get 30% throttle, you press button-1 + button-2 together to get 60% throttle, and you press button-1, button-2, and button-3 together to get 100% throttle.

Here's what that circuit diagram looks like to do that:
3-button_throttle_schematic.jpg
3-button_throttle_schematic.jpg (42.42 KiB) Viewed 1480 times
And here's what the actual wiring would be like:
3-button_throttle_wiring.jpg
3-button_throttle_wiring.jpg (130.54 KiB) Viewed 1479 times
EDIT: This diagram is still accurate, but I've added a revised diagram that shows the actual tabs on the buttons and how they'll get connected. I made a few mistakes on the tabs when I started soldering stuff together, so I figured a more accurate drawing would help others. You can find the new drawing on page 7 of this thread.

I'll be using the same micro momentary buttons that Kepler is using with his friction-drive bike.
95C12A3GWRT_DSL.jpg
95C12A3GWRT_DSL.jpg (5.65 KiB) Viewed 1480 times
Since I'm using a Phaserunner controller, the "throttle" settings won't determine my top speed, instead they'll determine how many amps are going into the motor. If you ignore a few things, and all else being equal, you can almost think of this as 30% assist, 60% assist, and 100% assist, as opposed to slow, medium, and full speeds. Of course, if you used a more traditional controller then the buttons would be setting the speed limit rather than the torque limit.
Last edited by zro-1 on Apr 01 2018 12:31am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Mar 18 2018 7:48pm

If they are momentary how will they work as a throttle would you need fingers on the buttons while riding ?
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 18 2018 8:22pm

Yeah, fingers on them while riding. Sort of like playing a trumpet :lol:
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 18 2018 9:14pm

I felt I should elaborate on how this throttle design would work while riding. The buttons are wired in series, so that it's impossible to hit button-2 or button-3 by themselves (or in combination) and send an unexpected signal to the controller. You have to be holding button-1 in order for button-2 to work, and you need to be holding button-1 and button-2 in order for button-3 to work. So if you're rolling along using just button-1 and you accidentally hit button-3, nothing will happen, because button-2 is still open. What's also nice is if you're at an uphill stop, and you need 100% throttle right away, you can hold button-2 and button-3, then when you're ready, you just hit button-1 with them, and instant 100% throttle. Alternately, if you're at the same stop, but it's wet out and you don't want to completely gun it, you can hold down just button-2 then hit button-1 when you're ready and you get instant 60% throttle. So you can still get up the hill from a stop, but with a little less torque to avoid breaking the tire loose on the wet pavement. Then once you're rolling, you can add button-3 for 100% throttle.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Mar 18 2018 10:38pm

Once installed in the grip it will be like playing music emusic notes :D
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Mar 19 2018 7:35pm

I got the bullhorn bars and brake levers installed today. I'm still waiting on tape, cables, and the electric bits to make the throttle. I kept the bars very slightly tilted up because I've never ridden with this style bar before and I wanted slightly less wrist angle until I knew how everything felt.
bars-1.jpg
bars-1.jpg (80.01 KiB) Viewed 1416 times
bars-2.jpg
bars-2.jpg (102.24 KiB) Viewed 1416 times
Oh. hehe, I also decided to invest in really good brakes for this bike. I ended up getting a set of SRAM Red Aerolink calipers. Man, they are sweet. I set them up and tried them out before I swapped out the bars. The modulation on these is soooo much better than the cheapo no-name caliper that came on the bike.
reds-1.jpg
original vs new calipers
reds-1.jpg (145.83 KiB) Viewed 1416 times
reds-2.jpg
reds-2.jpg (81.52 KiB) Viewed 1416 times
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