DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

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mlt34   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by mlt34 » Jan 14 2018 4:55am

The caps are designed to be quite tight, as its better to err on the side of they staying put even in conditions of extreme vibrations. The downside of the tight fit is that it is more difficult to remove them, but using the metal ruler method described a few pages back is a good method. This is also another reason that it is recommended to start with a smaller pack of approximately 5-7 cells wide for the first pack, until you get the hang of it. The Vruzend caps are quite easy to use, but because they are so unique, it can take a pack or two to get used to using them and for it to become second nature. I'm now regularly building packs with them, popping these suckers on and off at a whim, but In the beginning, it's a whole new world compared to spot welding or soldering so it is quite foreign at the beginning. Hopefully Vruzend support was able to help you, and I'm happy to help if I can.
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by Tats » Feb 24 2018 10:16pm

V2? Think there’s a few people waiting on this. :-)

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by VRUZEND » Feb 26 2018 9:49am

Hey Guys,

Sorry to keep all of you waiting this long. We are very close, and expect to be ready to debut the V2 in a matter of weeks.

We have been working tirelessly on the V2. There have been a lot of changes that we have brought about.

The caps have been re-designed, and the physical shape is similar to the new SS V1.5 that was just announced.

We have changed the polymer making it more durable and smoother. They slide in a lot smoother and establishing contact is way easier.

We have changed the design of the internal contact too for the V2. It doubles up as a stopper now. So your cell doesn't get pushed in all the way. It will go in till a limit. There's a few more small changes and upgrades that are in the works as well.

Initial tests have shown the V2 prototypes to be capable of at least a 20A discharge. We are working on one final tweak .The IR too is similar to that of a spot welded pack. We have been testing it extensively. In fact the V1 served as a perfect study guide helping us and directing us over these 9 months.

If you think about it, the V1 itself has seen 3 changes till now.

First came the white transparent caps, with the dog tail bolts. Then came the coloured caps with the full thread bolts. And now the new V1.5 caps with a better design and different polymer with longer bolts. You can place about 5 if not 6 bus bars on each bolt!

Along the way we did face a lot of challenges.

We have been working hard as a company to be not just professionally progressive, but socially progressive as well. Did you know your Vruzend kits get made by women and the entire plant is run and operated by women?. Its a social initiative. Our way of giving back to the society. These woman are sole bread winners for their family. And uptil about 9 months back they could neither read nor write English. Today they know English numbers, basic sentences and most of all they know some stuff about lithium ion cells too!!. We also sponsor the education of their kids in the area.

Not just the Indian manufacturing unit but even our USA ware house is run by women. We have also tied up with high schools and universities in the USA and do whatever we can to provide them with some technical help and material for educational use for students.

So yes back to the topic,we did have some trouble with our quality check, that was mostly because difference in perception. Took a while to teach them. We have been quietly selectively selling the V1.5 caps since November. And the feed back has been nothing but great. Thats why we announced them this week instead of a couple of months back. We needed them to be tested at the user end.

Not just that, we had some trouble at the manufacturing end. The guy who makes the bolts for us messed up the dimensions and on a few kits you couldn't place more than 2 bus bars. Some bolts had their dog points (The non threaded part of the bolt so threading the nut is easier) perfect, some were below par. A big big thanks to CRAIGGOR. You have no idea how much that mail helped!. Will be contacting you soon.

A while back our molding machine died and we had to out source the molding of caps. Initial lots were up to specs. One lot wasn't. Due to improper flow temp and cooling time combo the caps had a tendency to crack some times. Whoever, ever emailed us with a complain, we have sent full replacement/ full refund. We always have and always will stand by our product.

There have been times we have given away kits for FREE to vets, school professors, ex-cops and fire fighters.

We appreciate all feedback, praises and constructive criticism. Every feedback helped us to improve and better the product. So a big big big thank you to all you guys out there. We took every word of your feedback very very seriously. We have really really tried to incorporate as much of your feedback into the V1.5s and the V2s as possible.

@ Parabellum and Matador, your mails with design suggestions have been invaluable. Will be contacting a lot of you guys really soon.

Matador, we actually tried out the spring loaded contacts you mentioned https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... ?id=212933 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... ?id=213050 . Unfortunately the copper spring would loose its tension pretty soon, even the 1 mm and 1.5mm thick ones. Also, on a few occasions the the copper wire running between the springs, the strands would break over a period of time. Will email you the pic. We haven't given up on this. We are still working on it to better it.

This made us make changes to our present internal contact. Some subtle modifications actually ramped up the current from a modest 10A in the initial test to 20A at the moment.

@Tom, thanks for your continuous support and guidance. Thanks for being there.

@Spnningmagnets thank you so much for the review and the pleasant words. That was very kind of you and we highly appreciate it.

A BIG thank you to Mr John Clulow, who has extended a lot of professional help and guidance to us. His knowledge about materials and design is in valuable. His constant guidance and suggestions has helped us immensely. Him and Micah have been testing the V2 prototypes for a while now.

Lastly @MLT34 (Micah), Couldn't begin to thank you enough. On multiple occasions you have gone above and beyond of what was required. I think they will take the post down if I begin to write the kind of things we had to go through..hahaha
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mlt34   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by mlt34 » Feb 26 2018 11:15am

I also showed a preview of the V2 prototypes in a recent video below. At that point, we had tested the prototypes to as high as 13A, but since then, we've tested them up to 20A with results that show a statistically insignificant difference between the V2 and spotwelded nickel connections during capacity tests, and an IR difference in the low single digits, though we are working on bringing this different down to zero as well with some recent changes that we haven't been able to fully test yet.

Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by 999zip999 » Feb 26 2018 1:18pm

20amp per cell so 4p Samsung 25r can be used at 50- 60amp peak ? Thinking that it is a 20amp cell. Could that be doable.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by vagosofron » Feb 26 2018 6:14pm

So if the bars can hold 20A, I can build my 3p battery and get the 60A I need?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by mlt34 » Feb 27 2018 9:31am

999zip999 wrote:
Feb 26 2018 1:18pm
20amp per cell so 4p Samsung 25r can be used at 50- 60amp peak ? Thinking that it is a 20amp cell. Could that be doable.
vagosofron wrote:
Feb 26 2018 6:14pm
So if the bars can hold 20A, I can build my 3p battery and get the 60A I need?
Yes to both, but remember to keep cell ratings in mind, and to take them with a grain of salt. Yes, technically the Samsung 25R is rated for 20A continuous by Samsung, but it really shouldn't ever be actually run at 20A, at least not if you care about cycle life. That's because the cell will get insanely hot. By Samsung's own data in the cell's spec sheet, they indicate that a 25R cell will climb to around 95ºC when run at 20A continuous. That's almost hot enough to boil water! :shock:

We've been doing our high current testing with Sony VTC4s, which are rated at 30A. So far we've gotten up to 20A discharge in our tests, but as we keep pushing the testing current higher, we might find that the current limit of the kit will be above the amount of current that today's 18650 cells can reasonably output. At that point, the only limit will be the cells, not the current :D
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by 999zip999 » Feb 27 2018 10:16am

203 degrees Fahrenheit boiling water for 4.5 years I've been using A123 pouch cells very heavy. But I use them 90 amps they're cool to the touch I don't even know if they get warm I charge mat 16 amps everything's cool. I understand 18650 cells are the new thing but they have amp and heat limitations I'm glad to hear that your bus bars can over handle the load of what the cells can deliver. Can deliver what the cells can put out. Great news
Thanks a lot guys as I mean there is much involvement and openness.
Last edited by 999zip999 on Feb 27 2018 10:52am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by vagosofron » Feb 27 2018 10:23am

Is it possible to fit extra copper wire/plates on top of the bars to allow more current flow?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by mlt34 » Feb 27 2018 1:51pm

vagosofron wrote:
Feb 27 2018 10:23am
Is it possible to fit extra copper wire/plates on top of the bars to allow more current flow?
Yes, the testing has been done with a single bus bar, but there is room for 5 or 6 bus bars per cap. However, as I mentioned above, we are reaching the point where the limiting factory will be how much current the cells can produce, not how much current the caps can handle. As it is, the V2 prototypes are already able to handle more current than some higher power cells like Samsung 25R cells can safely produce.
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by parabellum » Feb 28 2018 9:59am

Nice work! What polymer are you using now? What is the Vicat softening point of new caps material?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by VRUZEND » Feb 28 2018 1:44pm

Hey Parabellum,

We are actually using a mix of few polymers. The Vicat is at about 125C.

Reason for using a mix is to achieve the desired smoothness softness and yet maintain high tensile strength. Also it prevents the caps from going hard over prolonged usage.

One more thing, polymers have a glass transition point. The previous polymer we used to use, the glass transition temp was at about 15C.
The current mix of polymer has a transition temp of -5C. So you can assemble your pack even at sub zero temps. Though you can use the caps at far lower temps, its the assembly that would be a bit hard below the glass transition temp.

By transition temp I mean the temp below which the caps are most susceptible to splitting reason being they are made a tad bit tighter to accommodate the various sizes of 18650 cells.

Also not to forget due to the metal contacts inside the caps, the contraction and expansion rates of the metal and the polymer actually vary. This becomes prominent at lower temps. Not so much at higher temps.

In the previous polymer that is the virgin pp we had, properties were very susceptible to the temperature at which it was molded. That's exactly why we had an issue with one of the lots like I mentioned above.

Not only have we changed the polymer, we have also changed the compound from which the colours were made. Master batches are made from various polymers, so we changed the one we used to use. So all of this has made a whole lot of difference.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by vagosofron » Feb 28 2018 3:07pm

When will you have your new kit available in EU warehouses?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by parabellum » Feb 28 2018 3:27pm

I see, a big list of good news. Can't wait to get my hands on V2 batch. Keep up the good work!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by rupy » Mar 05 2018 4:56pm

Hi, I tried to order on the /international-orders page but it never completes.

Also it would be great if you made extended kits that includes a 36v BMS, a 36v charger and all the cables and adapters for Anderson Connector fitted controller, so that the purchase only requires the cells to build a complete working product.

Lastly, I have a 20A controller, does that work with these V1.5 kits?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by kaiserzoze » Mar 07 2018 6:54am

International order form is neither working for me already
rupy wrote:
Mar 05 2018 4:56pm
Hi, I tried to order on the /international-orders page but it never completes.

Also it would be great if you made extended kits that includes a 36v BMS, a 36v charger and all the cables and adapters for Anderson Connector fitted controller, so that the purchase only requires the cells to build a complete working product.

Lastly, I have a 20A controller, does that work with these V1.5 kits?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by rupy » Mar 07 2018 11:29am

I tried commenting on their own forum too, still awaiting moderation...

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by VRUZEND » Mar 07 2018 11:42am

Hey guys,

Real sorry for the trouble. We had a temporary technical glitch which has been sorted now. Our international order page is live now. On top of that a bot has been making things worse for us by flooding our mails with plenty of mails.

Our mails are vruzend(at)gmail(dot)com and contact(at)vruzend(dot)com.

Real sorry for the trouble.
Thank you.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by rupy » Mar 08 2018 10:33am

Ok, great that you are back.

I have a question: if my controller draws 20A max, is it safe to buy 5-10A rated 18650 cells for a 10x5 cell 36v pack?

I'm thinking 20A total draw / 5 cells in parallel = 4A per cell? Or doesn't it work like that?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by 999zip999 » Mar 08 2018 11:33am

Sounds good. The best cells less stress. 10a cells will not work as hard and should last longer. Minus Human error. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... ttery+book
Check this out.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by Rube » Mar 08 2018 6:10pm

Great news on the product evolution and congratulations for being a socially progressive and responsible company.

Will users need to avoid UV exposure to the new polymer caps?

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by 999zip999 » Mar 09 2018 8:14am

Yo boys this is a for sale thread and could you update the price and quantity in the header of this thread thank you . As aka E.S. rules Lol. Maybe timeline for new product. More Lol.
I'm excited thanks

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by Matador » Mar 10 2018 4:54pm

Congrats for the progress on the V2-Vruzend !! :D

Always thought copper + Nickel plating was the solution for higher currents ...
As i sketched my idea of an upgrade here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... ?id=212933

Hope the nickel platted copper is not too soft and looses tensile strenght over time... but it sound like you guy thought about everything with using a copper alloy (might be more springy than regular copper).

I was thinking about wedging springsteel springs between the two copper disks (sandwich solution). Benefit of good recoil of springsteel + benefit of nickel-plated copper for conductivity, without the inconvinience of low recoil of copper...

You can actually see the springs I drawed here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... ?id=212933


Anyways, love the progress ! Sounds totally awesome !

Matador

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by VRUZEND » Mar 11 2018 7:27am

Hey Guys,

Sorry for taking a while to reply.

If by UV you mean regular sunlight then yeah, the new caps are far more stronger and robust. What we do is leave them out in the sun on the roof of our shop. Our workshop is in India so we receive plenty of sun all year long.

As for pricing and officially announcing them, about 14 days more. We have made the changes, just testing them out for the final Amp and IR figures.

But yeah they would come in boxes of 60. That is 30 cells. Thats mainly to avoid wastage of caps and making some one buying too many when all he may need it for is like 20 cells for his skate board.

@Matador, long time!!. Sorry was terribly caught up.

Am really sorry for I cant attach pics of what we have done at the moment. World is nasty. Learnt it a very hard way.

So yeah, we did exactly what you did for your Matador packs. So SS spring between the copper alloy contact. A copper wire running in between. The copper strands would wear off. On a couple of occasions, the wire got caught in the spring when compressed, and also sometimes the flat top mounted on the spring would go in slanted when pressed in by the cell.

Then we thought of just inserting the spring in between the existing contacts. But it had its own production issues. For one, it was very difficult to fold the contact, even after we managed that, the top of the contact wouldn't remain straight, that is it would slant down like in the existing contact cause there was nothing to hold it there.

So made a few structural changes, Instead of a spring we inserted a stopper in between. Now you cannot push the contact down below a certain point and that point is the point where the cell terminal sits perfectly flat onto the internal contact. So the internal contact is now touching the entire terminal of the cell, and due to the stopper the internal contact cannot be pushed down any further. So now if you make a contact, its always a GOOD STRONG contact and not just touching it at a point.

At the moment, the internal contact gets made in 3 parts welded at 2 places. A fun fact, It takes 16KA to weld copper to copper hahaha. Our welders run on steroids and can weld silver too. We are working on one other mod, which should make production easier for us. But this wont stop the production for the V2.

Wait is not that long now. We just sent out a lot of 50 to some one we had an obligation to. They will get tested thoroughly and God willing our efforts will payoff. Once we get the go ahead from there, that there are no teething issues, then yeah we will announce it right away.

Just a few days more, promise.

Thank you all

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Post by Matador » Mar 11 2018 10:14am

That sound amazing,
I`m always surprized by your work.... Always one step ahead of everybody else...
So you had tried the spring!

16 kA !!!! WOOW! That a lot of juice to make a weld !

Matador

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