mr.electric
10 kW
whatever happened to open source and es being the free sharing of ideas to move ebike forward. I for one celebrate Minimums sharing. Awesomeness. Its about time.
new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?
- Thread starter emaayan
- Start date
jonnydrive
100 W
Hi,
I made a custom Cyclone frame that permits to disassemble the motor without removing the bottom bracket and the crank arm.
It is useful if you need to convert your ebike in a mtb in less of one minute and with only a wrench and a screwdriver.
4 or optionally 6 M6 bolts fix the motor to the motor brackets thru the "clamps" (the C shape you see in the first pictures). The brackets are fixed on the bike also when the motor is removed. All the motor support components are made in aluminium that is enough thick to forget any kind of bend during the ride (my rides are quite extreme!)
Attached you can find the Solidworks project, is not perfect (I'm a newbe with CAD) so, please, double check before machining the pieces.
For more details please ask.
Bee free to modify and improve as you prefer this project. Only one request: please share in Endlessphere all the evolution in a open source way.
I made a custom Cyclone frame that permits to disassemble the motor without removing the bottom bracket and the crank arm.
It is useful if you need to convert your ebike in a mtb in less of one minute and with only a wrench and a screwdriver.
4 or optionally 6 M6 bolts fix the motor to the motor brackets thru the "clamps" (the C shape you see in the first pictures). The brackets are fixed on the bike also when the motor is removed. All the motor support components are made in aluminium that is enough thick to forget any kind of bend during the ride (my rides are quite extreme!)
Attached you can find the Solidworks project, is not perfect (I'm a newbe with CAD) so, please, double check before machining the pieces.
For more details please ask.
Bee free to modify and improve as you prefer this project. Only one request: please share in Endlessphere all the evolution in a open source way.
Attachments
jonnydrive
100 W
Jonnydrive
What is see with your mount design is a step forward. The ideal design to me would be to have a tab added to your motor mounts and have receiving brackets on the bike frame. This would make it so that you don’t need to mount to your bottom bracket. Would probably need to use spacers if the mount plates aren’t used, no biggie. Has anyone brought the motor in closer to crank center than the stock position? Even a little closer could make the motor position more compact for in frame installs, or tight in a non technical term. I could entertain going to a 13t motor freewheel. I just went from 26” teny magnesium (I think) so so rims to nice 50mm wide 27.5” carbon wheels from AliExpress. Going from a 2.8 inch tire on a narrow rim to the new tire at 3” is such a difference pictures to follow.
What is see with your mount design is a step forward. The ideal design to me would be to have a tab added to your motor mounts and have receiving brackets on the bike frame. This would make it so that you don’t need to mount to your bottom bracket. Would probably need to use spacers if the mount plates aren’t used, no biggie. Has anyone brought the motor in closer to crank center than the stock position? Even a little closer could make the motor position more compact for in frame installs, or tight in a non technical term. I could entertain going to a 13t motor freewheel. I just went from 26” teny magnesium (I think) so so rims to nice 50mm wide 27.5” carbon wheels from AliExpress. Going from a 2.8 inch tire on a narrow rim to the new tire at 3” is such a difference pictures to follow.
jonnydrive
100 W
Skaiwerd said:
yes, but I was unable to find a way to strongly fix the motor without welding the support directly on the bike tube, and aluminium bike frames needs Synergic AC welding machine, expensive and very difficult to manage. I have tried aluminium welding wit cheap welding machine, terrible results.
Skaiwerd said:
Nearing the motor to the crack requires to pay attention to two things:
- do not make the engine the lowest thing after the bike wheels (like the bafang) hitting a rocks with the motor may damage it
- limiting the chainring size
check this out: https://paradoxkinetics.com/, this guys removed the needs of a chain (from motor and crank) by putting cogs to the engine and to the chainring. A good idea to make the system much more robust and compact.
Now I'm figuring out to reinforce the rear hub freewheel, I have broken two fat-bike freewheel hub. Once solved the motor support, the bike transmission is the weakest point of my build to face out.....
Attachments
DingusMcGee
10 kW
An adjustable motor frame for the purpose of eliminating the chain tensioner comes with limitations. Likely any such sliding/adjustable mechanism will work on pavement and uncluttered trail.
Observation: if you can get your motor chain on with finger forces and cranking it onto the big ring, twigs and trail debris can push it off and if twigs do not throw the chain off the chain is likely too tight.
Even though it is possible to make the Cyclone 3000 OEM frames adjustable for chain tension I have gone back to a chain tensioner but not the included OEM linkage and spring. The modified method is to anchor tight a metal tang off an extended 6" thru motor/frame bolt and fasten either a DMR or Mountain Speed grooved pulley wheel. no spring is used.
The results have been quite satisfying as no twigs have yet caused a chain derailment. The setup seem quieter than OEM versions maybe the pulley-rubber dampens the contact noise?
Observation: if you can get your motor chain on with finger forces and cranking it onto the big ring, twigs and trail debris can push it off and if twigs do not throw the chain off the chain is likely too tight.
Even though it is possible to make the Cyclone 3000 OEM frames adjustable for chain tension I have gone back to a chain tensioner but not the included OEM linkage and spring. The modified method is to anchor tight a metal tang off an extended 6" thru motor/frame bolt and fasten either a DMR or Mountain Speed grooved pulley wheel. no spring is used.
The results have been quite satisfying as no twigs have yet caused a chain derailment. The setup seem quieter than OEM versions maybe the pulley-rubber dampens the contact noise?
DingusMcGee
Your rubber roller is a nice option for the tensioner. I’ve come to the conclusion that the need to slide or pivot the motor to tension the chain is just not wort it. We’re trying to eliminate the twisting forces. Integrating the chain tensioning into the mount would just create more parts to flex, slide and need to be secured with bolts in the tightened position. I’m working on an aluminum frame cyclone3000 now. You can get a $140 with shipping, 29” frame from AliExpress and put 27.5” x 3” tires will fit. I’m not into the fat bikes but the 3 inch tire bikes is my current direction. It’s also aluminum and I’d really like to put the motor in the frame with no welding. I think I’m going to get the frame soda blasted first to remove the paint and graphics. See I can share. I priced American steel frames (for welding and the ride) and it was over $1000 + shipping. Or Canadian for $800 plus shipping. Pretty much the same features with the Asian frame and it’s super light.
Your rubber roller is a nice option for the tensioner. I’ve come to the conclusion that the need to slide or pivot the motor to tension the chain is just not wort it. We’re trying to eliminate the twisting forces. Integrating the chain tensioning into the mount would just create more parts to flex, slide and need to be secured with bolts in the tightened position. I’m working on an aluminum frame cyclone3000 now. You can get a $140 with shipping, 29” frame from AliExpress and put 27.5” x 3” tires will fit. I’m not into the fat bikes but the 3 inch tire bikes is my current direction. It’s also aluminum and I’d really like to put the motor in the frame with no welding. I think I’m going to get the frame soda blasted first to remove the paint and graphics. See I can share. I priced American steel frames (for welding and the ride) and it was over $1000 + shipping. Or Canadian for $800 plus shipping. Pretty much the same features with the Asian frame and it’s super light.
Attachments
Great work with the mount!
I would append to this list: driving sprocket (cog) engagement length (well, angle actually) to the chain. Simply put - longer is better as more teeth will be engaged. Especially important if motor cog is small and/or driven sprocket large.jonnydrive said:
I have thought about second tensioner on upper side. Limited travel (up to 10-15mm) and very high tension using either disc springs or similar. When full throttle is applied, upper tensioner acts as dampener. Lower tensioner would be needed as well to counteract and to compensate for any slackness.
jonnydrive
100 W
Skaiwerd said:
check this out https://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FROOFATV2/on-one-fatty-v2-frame, it is only frame that I can found with a twin upper tube. My previous frame (Bottecchia) twists under heavy acceleration, this one is very solid and not so expensive.
It is a shame that have qr (quick release) dropout for rear wheel... it happens that during hard trails the wheel cames out. The best if it had a thru dropout as a downhill bike.
jonnydrive
100 W
minimum said:
yep, mee too, the chain without the standard front derailleur jumps sideways, but with two front chainring it is difficult to build a good chain tensioner because the chain needs to move up and down and left and ride to follow the gearings . I built a handmade prototype version, testing will came soon
Jonnydrive
I’ve been swapping out my quick release in favor of a solid axle set up. I recently used a mini lathe on the front hub adapters and a power drill in the back. A little scary on a new wheel set but it has worked great so far. Some forks you can squeeze in a 10mm for the front. I like the thought of riding on a 10mm axle vs the 5mm skewer.
I’ve been swapping out my quick release in favor of a solid axle set up. I recently used a mini lathe on the front hub adapters and a power drill in the back. A little scary on a new wheel set but it has worked great so far. Some forks you can squeeze in a 10mm for the front. I like the thought of riding on a 10mm axle vs the 5mm skewer.
I recently picked up one of these kits and have a few questions about the controller.. if anybody could help that would be awesome
1. Do you have to use a 3 speed switch (or jump the connections) to get the most out of the motor? I see when a 3 speed switch is not used, the controller defaults to the middle setting.
2. When using the manual cruise control feature, is the only way to disable it using the ebrake, or can you press the cruise control button again?
3. Can anyone explain the slow start/fast start settings? I think I get that when you use slow start, the motor takes a little time before going to full power.. but there is also fast start.. does this mean that when neither are enabled, that the motor still spins up slightly slower than if you enable fast start?
Thanks for your help!
1. Do you have to use a 3 speed switch (or jump the connections) to get the most out of the motor? I see when a 3 speed switch is not used, the controller defaults to the middle setting.
2. When using the manual cruise control feature, is the only way to disable it using the ebrake, or can you press the cruise control button again?
3. Can anyone explain the slow start/fast start settings? I think I get that when you use slow start, the motor takes a little time before going to full power.. but there is also fast start.. does this mean that when neither are enabled, that the motor still spins up slightly slower than if you enable fast start?
Thanks for your help!
DingusMcGee
10 kW
Skaiwerd,
A Mtn bike frame without rear suspension? I did some steep hill climbing with a Cyclone hard tail and a fat hard tail equipped with the small block LR motor. The gates belt on the LR setup failed on the first attempt at the hill. The freehub pawls soon failed on the Cyclone hardtail. Rear suspension considerably lessens the shock loadings given to the drive train when an airborne spinning rear wheel hits the ground.
What is your reasoning to go with a hardtail?
I have one bike with a 3" wide tire but have no desire to go any bigger again.
A Mtn bike frame without rear suspension? I did some steep hill climbing with a Cyclone hard tail and a fat hard tail equipped with the small block LR motor. The gates belt on the LR setup failed on the first attempt at the hill. The freehub pawls soon failed on the Cyclone hardtail. Rear suspension considerably lessens the shock loadings given to the drive train when an airborne spinning rear wheel hits the ground.
What is your reasoning to go with a hardtail?
I have one bike with a 3" wide tire but have no desire to go any bigger again.
DingusMcGee
I just think it’s overkill, the full suspension. More parts, shock and dogbones and stuff like that to take away from space inside the frame. Even when I was younger and in better shape I would rarely bunny hop or get airborne. I was just to tired as most of my energy was used climbing and going fast on the sweeping winding parts. Plus I never mastered the pull up the front so the rear tire hits first method when catching air. We all know of the unpredictable results that could happen when the front tire hits first, especially if your are not perfectly straight with your steering or you hit that hole that was covered with leaves. So I figured I’m not catching air with a heavy ebike, don’t want to try. Also I read conflicting reports on the linkage causing the rear to twist under load. One read 4 link was best, while I also read the simpler 2 pivot style was better. Don’t care what’s true as I’m not up for full suspension at this time anyway. We will see what happens, just assembling parts for now. For your 3” tires did you have wide rims like 40-50mm? With that and lower tire pressures the suspension part is less necessary, opinion only. Sure it’s good for thouse who need or want it to match their riding style.
I just think it’s overkill, the full suspension. More parts, shock and dogbones and stuff like that to take away from space inside the frame. Even when I was younger and in better shape I would rarely bunny hop or get airborne. I was just to tired as most of my energy was used climbing and going fast on the sweeping winding parts. Plus I never mastered the pull up the front so the rear tire hits first method when catching air. We all know of the unpredictable results that could happen when the front tire hits first, especially if your are not perfectly straight with your steering or you hit that hole that was covered with leaves. So I figured I’m not catching air with a heavy ebike, don’t want to try. Also I read conflicting reports on the linkage causing the rear to twist under load. One read 4 link was best, while I also read the simpler 2 pivot style was better. Don’t care what’s true as I’m not up for full suspension at this time anyway. We will see what happens, just assembling parts for now. For your 3” tires did you have wide rims like 40-50mm? With that and lower tire pressures the suspension part is less necessary, opinion only. Sure it’s good for thouse who need or want it to match their riding style.
jonnydrive
100 W
DingusMcGee said:
I don't know for Skaiwerd but I chose hard tail because I am afraid that the suspension point can be a weakest parts because the torque put from the engine to the frame is not the same of a jump and they can be a failing points. Also I have problems to place 1 kw of battery pack in the triangle in coexistence with the rear shock.
I choose a rear fatbike wheel to obtain the maximum available grip without sinking in the mud.
the downside: a lot of stress on the rear wheel hub and a pair of freehub pawls broken..
I have a hardtail, about 1400km since conversion (250-300km in winter). I wish I had full suspension, even when riding only streets.
During winter I broke rear axle riding local forest biking/skiing/jogging trail - which had quite smooth, worked up surface.
During winter I broke rear axle riding local forest biking/skiing/jogging trail - which had quite smooth, worked up surface.
jonnydrive
100 W
minimum said:
What do you think it is the cause of the broken? The low quality of the components, the absence of a rear suspension or something else?
DingusMcGee
10 kW
Rims 33 mm. With tires pressured for soft suspension you get less sidewall grip from the same tire. I think of my fork for softening the ride. Riding side hills necessities good sidewall grip.
I have a Cyclone hardtail and get too much front end bounce to do these rides for lack of steering control. The front wheel is in the air too much. With low tire pressure there would be less sidewall grip.
It seems using a very wide rim might cause the knubs adjacent to the tire sides to protrude less sideward than the smooth rubber of the tire sidewall that is closer too the bead. I use these tires, Maxxus Minion DHF, Kenda Inevegal at 2.8 & 2.7 wide and one 3" x24" Arrow and get good knub protrusion with this rim width. The soft rubber version by Maxxus on the rear wear out quite quickly.
Chalo
100 TW
minimum said:
Hubs spaced for 7 speed freewheels routinely bend and break axles even without the extra weight and chain tension of an e-bike. The poor dropout alignment of most cheap bikes makes it almost inevitable.
If you're going to use a mid drive, save yourself a bunch of trouble and get a sturdy handbuilt wheel with a cassette hub.
So to contribute to the thread I burned out another motor a month ago and I have major news that may affect those of you with a flexing motor.
But first the burning.
Taking about 70-80 volts, this motor really is only suitable for ~1500 watts or so continuous. I ran over 6000 watts at first on 120v and while that bike was faster the motor died after 100 miles. The second one lasted a few hundred @ 60 amps battery 150 amps phase. Here's the problem, I've been riding mostly on the track / trails and I'm getting way faster. At first I wasn't really using my power so as to concentrate on carrying speed but now that I've advanced beyond low power momentum carrying exercises the limitations of the motor have become very apparent. Now I'm running only 40 amps battery, 100 amps phase and I still don't expect this motor to last more than a few hundred miles cuz my right wrist is only becoming less lenient.
Now major news for people with flexing drives
A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.
Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!
But first the burning.
Taking about 70-80 volts, this motor really is only suitable for ~1500 watts or so continuous. I ran over 6000 watts at first on 120v and while that bike was faster the motor died after 100 miles. The second one lasted a few hundred @ 60 amps battery 150 amps phase. Here's the problem, I've been riding mostly on the track / trails and I'm getting way faster. At first I wasn't really using my power so as to concentrate on carrying speed but now that I've advanced beyond low power momentum carrying exercises the limitations of the motor have become very apparent. Now I'm running only 40 amps battery, 100 amps phase and I still don't expect this motor to last more than a few hundred miles cuz my right wrist is only becoming less lenient.
Now major news for people with flexing drives A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.
Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!
jonnydrive
100 W
Chalo said:
Chalo, are you suggesting to choose freehub and cassette instead of therad-on freewheel?
I was convinced that the freewheel was more strong than a freehub....my mistake
There is a way to reinforce the freehub form manage the Cyclone torque? I already broke two freehub it is becoming quite annoying (and expensive).
In my last build I tried to block the freehub, in this way the cassette moves with the wheel hub in both direction, the downsides is in downhill where chain jumps around changing gear, stalling, breaking, etc..
Chalo
100 TW
A freewheel can be stronger than a freehub in torque (or sometimes not), but the axle of a multi-speed freewheel hub will always be vulnerable to bending and breaking because of the degree to which it's cantilevered (overhanging).
If you can find a freewheel hub with a large diameter, preferably non-threaded axle-- Phil Wood is one very expensive example-- you can get the best of both. Sturdy ratchet, cheap consumables, and a reliable axle. I sometimes convert sealed bearing BMX hubs with 14mm axles (15mm bearings) by making a substitute axle with multi-speed spacing. This allows the axle to be 15mm in diameter at the narrowest, and up to 19mm in the overhung portion on the freewheel side.
If you can find a freewheel hub with a large diameter, preferably non-threaded axle-- Phil Wood is one very expensive example-- you can get the best of both. Sturdy ratchet, cheap consumables, and a reliable axle. I sometimes convert sealed bearing BMX hubs with 14mm axles (15mm bearings) by making a substitute axle with multi-speed spacing. This allows the axle to be 15mm in diameter at the narrowest, and up to 19mm in the overhung portion on the freewheel side.
