new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

An email sent to Luna Cycle from a return 2 months ago to Luna Cycle:

I see the returned item has been delivered to your shop but no conformation, credit or payment sent to me? Is this type of action business as usual?
 
Flat tire


:arrow: :arrow: Now major news for people with flexing drives
:arrow: :arrow:
A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.

Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!

Flat tire, the worthiness of properly placed gear clamps towards reducing frame flex has been posted on this site by me several times. In particular I have argued that to get higher rigidity, the spacers that rest on the motor fins be replaced with spacers of the correct diameter to reach the motor housing, the interfering motor fins be removed and the motor housing smoothed at that location. Otherwise when the local gear clamp is tightened the motor pulley plane will be pulled to a slight angle to the BB chainring plane. Assuming the OEM frame unloaded aligned to have both chain rings in the same plane.

I did find your posting of the new motor frame's stiffness as a "beware of " posting and enjoy such commentary.
 
Yeah I don't doubt it but you know how searching goes. I never ran into it.

Re your Luna return, many people have "slipped through the cracks" with Luna's team and have horror stories to tell. Imagine cheech and chong are responsible for getting your stuff processed. Not everyone is going to be well-served by that arrangement. Good luck.
 
DingusMcGee
One question, did you obtain an RMA number from Luna Cycle prior to sending in your parts? They may use a different acronym but rma is the most common. Return merchandise authorization is what it stands for. It should put your return request into their system so it’s ready for when your merchandise arrives for refund. You may know this. I would think this would be beneficial if you need to do a chargeback from your credit card company or PayPal etc. Use caution if you shop with a debit card, you may not be as protected as you’d be with a credit card. I’ve had several successful chargebacks for items that never showed up or when a company just closed up and disappeared, with my credit card.
 
Skaiwerd,

I have both tracking and a return authorization. I now have gotten a response from Scott that he will look into the return completion.

Yes, credit cards offer more protection.

Flat tire,

Cheech and Chong? And maybe resume experience with an epipe.
 
Skaiwerd,

Back to weak linkages. The linkages of the downhill bikes of Specialized, the Big Hit, are quite a bit larger than the Elite full suspension frame that Cyclone sells with the coaxial motor, not mention the frame stiffness. I did bend the stays of Elite on the first day of riding in situation that would not cause stay bending to the Big Hit Frames.

The Horst Hollow Link did break in half on my once new to me 2004 Stumpjumper after many years of use. I bolted it together and am still using the repaired one on that bike which has had a c-3000 for some time. I just don't have the weak linkage problem that concerns you with FSB's.

Both of my Big Hit bikes were bought off eBay. The used components they came with are still in use. I equipped the Elite with new components and the cost was considerably more that what it cost to get the Big Hits running. The red Big Hit complete to the tire rubber with shipping was $460. These used downhill bike frames of Specialized seem quite superior to any drummed up product from the orient for the purposes of tough trail riding.

Another messurement to consider for trail riding is the wheelbase which as it gets less means more nimbleness. The red Big Hill measures 43.5" using a 26" front and a 24" rear. Bikes running 27.5" and 29" wheels cannot beat this compactness when in a FSF. The welded frames of Quiltbox, Sur Ron and the likes are bigger and so is their BB axle to rear axle length which is measure of how easy you can switch turn direction.


But you are free to enjoy the extra battering of inferior suspension using hardtails.
 
On a high powered ebike, your drive train will fail way before your rear suspension. Remember the rider isn't getting 4x heavier, unlike the power. A dampened coil suspension will require very little service.
Not only does it get more dangerous at higher speeds with road imperfections, without a suspension every road noise and vibration goes straight to your battery, motor, controller. We haven't even talked about comfort.
Yes the triangles are smaller in general but that only means you have a bit more picking and choosing to do while finding the right frame, instead of buying the first cheap hunk.
It is a dumb move that will cost you more in the end one way or the other.

DingusMcGee said:
From Luna:

Looks like this has been logged but not processed yet. ETA should be 1-2 weeks or so if I had to guess.


Alright 10 weeks for a return?

How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit for anything above XC use, but I don't have interest in those things anyway. How is it as a stealth electric motorbike that can offroad?
 
. Tommm,

How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit for anything above XC use, but I don't have interest in those things anyway. How is it as a stealth electric motorbike that can offroad?
Top

Thanks for asking. The bike is too high at the seat for serious trail riding if you are short. I am 67" and its lowest seat height is too high for my feet to set on the ground as I like for serious off trail.

Stealth? Yes, maybe 1/3 the noise of the C3000? The bike has a 48" wheelbase but seems a little lighter than my lightest Big Hit bike. Off-road? Yes, to mean it will be fine on the medium difficulty "groomed" Mtn bike trails. But, I do not think it holds a candle close to being as good as an ebike built using a name brand downhill bike frame when doing OFF TRAIL. The bike came with a shock absorbing seat post which makes the seat height too much for me where any feet action might be necessary. But therefore I can tell you the rear shock absorber is no Fox shock. You might want to replace it despite it is oil-free as it offers little ass cushioning.
 
Tommm said:
On a high powered ebike, your drive train will fail way before your rear suspension......

Tommm, your arguments are good 8) for sure my next build will start from enduro/dh fullsuspended bike

In the meantime....have someone try to reinforce a standard freehub wheel to manage the cy3k fullpower?

I had broken mine... twice, so I decided to repair the freehub by removing the freewheel part and fixing the splines directly to the hub.
Following some pics of my cruel handmade works. I'm going to test this during a weekend ride.

Possible problems:
- the wheel drag the chain, the (soft) spring of the derailleur will try to keep the chain in position but if the crank frewheel or the cogs do not spin smoothly the chain will jump between gears
 

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DingusMcGee said:
But, I do not think it holds a candle close to being as good as an ebike built using a name brand downhill bike frame when doing OFF TRAIL.

You mean it is not good on road either? I figured the long wheelbase and slack angle will make it less wheelie prone and manageable on road.

As much as I looked at downhill frames, their triangles are tiny. Hard to fit batteries. Next to stealth and big power I wanted extreme range too. Kind of the only option to fit my needs.

I will be using my own seat+tube and a 26" wheelset to make it lower and a 170mm fork. Headset and seat slammed. Of course, the shock will have to go.


jonnydrive said:
In the meantime....have someone try to reinforce a standard freehub wheel to manage the cy3k fullpower?

I had broken mine... twice, so I decided to repair the freehub by removing the freewheel part and fixing the splines directly to the hub.
Following some pics of my cruel handmade works. I'm going to test this during a weekend ride.

Haven't done it but interested in something like this. I will have a crack at making my mid drive bike have regen (ERT and a few others have done it) and to do that I will have to strengthen and seize the hub up.

In general try putting the bigger loads on your bike at higher chainring rpms. Using a smaller wheel helps, a bigger wheel is a longer leverage arm on your hub. Low rpm and big power is when everything goes to shit. At high speed and high power the parts are already moving. Power = torque x rpm.

If your solution works let us know.
 
Tommm said:
If your solution works let us know.

It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.
 
jonnydrive said:
Tommm said:
If your solution works let us know.

It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.

What do you mean jumping around? What has changed in reguards to the forces on the chainline now? Can you share a vid?

I'm about to pull the trigger on a novatec D162SB-SL-X12 with steel casette splines and axle. It is one piece.
 
Tommm said:
jonnydrive said:
Tommm said:
If your solution works let us know.

It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.

What do you mean jumping around? What has changed in reguards to the forces on the chainline now? Can you share a vid?

I'm about to pull the trigger on a novatec D162SB-SL-X12 with steel casette splines and axle. It is one piece.

Sorry for my poor explanation :lol: I mean: if you release the throttle the chain still spin because it is dragged by the wheel. On every bounce of the bike the chain inflect (the derailleur keep the chain stretched or at least it tries...) and spin, the combination of inflection and spinnging provides a chain bounce (I will try to do a video to explain this)
 
jonnydrive said:
Sorry for my poor explanation :lol: I mean: if you release the throttle the chain still spin because it is dragged by the wheel. On every bounce of the bike the chain inflect (the derailleur keep the chain stretched or at least it tries...) and spin, the combination of inflection and spinnging provides a chain bounce (I will try to do a video to explain this)

Your chainring can spin without the pedal or motor working it? Is the engagement instant now or the motor freewheel still has some delay?
I bought a derailleur with a clutch(adjustable ultra strong spring) so on the bottom part I am fine. I have seen vids where the top bounces too, not sure what can be done with that. You might need a roller, even better a spring loaded one.

https://mdmetric.com/regincrt.htm
regina-6b.jpg
 
My freehubs are Shimano and they far outlast my chains. The rear derailleur and shifting play a part in shortening chain life. Since I have removed both derailleurs, I am seeing longer chain life. I had a talk with Staton, Inc about what options there are for switching to just a little bigger chain than the 9 speed chain.

See Staton, Inc for these chains and full width #415 sprockets

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=1752

By chain numbers forget about using #25, #35 and 219 GoKart Chain as these are high speed precision chains and would be derailed easier than standard bike chain when debris get on the chain and breeches the chain pathway to the sprockets.

By ascending width the #40 chain series, which would all have the same pitch -- meaning they will fit the teeth spacing and depth of a thin bike chainring but as the chains get wider a wider sprocket can be used.

1. 12 speed chain

2. 10 speed chain

3. 9 speed chain

4. 5 -8 speed chain

5. The standard 1 speed chain, which is the #410 chain.

6. The KMC #410 HD chain has bigger side plates than the standard one speed chain.

7. The KMC #415 HD chain.

8. Some of kid's motorcycles use a #426? Chain which is quite wide for fitting in the space of the double chainring at the BB.


IMG_0020.JPG


I decided to try the 415H chain and when it arrived its size seemed quite large but once it is on the bike it looks like a good heavy duty set up. When using the #415 series which has an internal width of 3/16" the standard one speed chain rings 1/8" will fit the chain pitch but there will be some sideways play unless you get wide enough chainrings. When the Cyclone steel chainrings are bolted together with one milled face to the inside, the combined tooth width will snugly fit into the #415 chain.

A set of 2 Cyclone chainrings, when mated, do not always have a 104 BCD pattern that aligns precisely with the rings teeth so I clamped the #415 chain around the 2 ring set and drilled out the 2x 4 holes of the 104mm BCD pattern to 25/64" which gives a very tight fit with the metric female chainring bolt part.

IMG_0007.JPG



The chainrings are attached to the freehub using the adapter sold by Projection racing of GB.

IMG_0011.JPG

The chain combination as seen from the underside of the BB

IMG_0019.JPG


The bigger #415 chain needs a chain tensioner wheel larger than those used with 10 speed chains.

IMG_0023.JPG

As seen from the rear

IMG_0022.JPG

So far the quieter setup has been working fine. But now the weaker link in the drivetrain is the freehub.
 
jonnydrive said:
Tommm said:
If your solution works let us know.

It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.

That is such a bad idea. I mean, fixed gears generally are already a terrible idea, but fixed gearing with a derailleur? It's a whole raft of unnecessary problems.

Remember that nothing else in your drivetrain is designed for more torque and power than a freehub body is designed for.
 
Chalo,

What out there in freehub world of all the varieties could be said to be the White Industries equivalent?

I think we ebikers have not examined the freehub market to have much of an idea what is the strongest freehub. There must be some 100 freehubs other than Shimano.

See:

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pages/search-results?limit=24&q=Freehub


https://www.niagaracycle.com/search.php?search_query=Freehub

Some of those shown have quite large pawls. I suppose steel alloy ones are stronger but how much $$ are you willing to spend to find out what is strongest?

I am not disappointed in having spent the $120 for SickBikeParts proprietary version of the White Industries BB freewheel as it far outlasts the Orient material. But there maybe far stronger freehubs out there than the standard Shimano freehub and little need to have a fixed version on the rear wheel?
 
In my observation, regular steel body Shimano freehubs for 10mm axles are the most reliable. That may be different from "most unbreakable", but it's direct observation. The cassette spline can't get bigger, so making room for a larger through axle necessarily makes the ratchet smaller and weaker.

It makes sense that some of the hubs with big diameter inboard ratchets or face ratchets would be stronger, but they're usually built for light weight. Standard cheap freehub bodies are strong enough for the job they're supposed to do.

I feel like you're asking me which lightweight economy car transmission will hold up best to a bulldozer engine. And the answer is "you're asking the wrong question".

My advice is first, raise your gearing so that the torque seen by the hub is closer to human levels. Second, maybe you should use a big axle sealed bearing BMX hub shell and make a special axle for it, so it will accommodate a 7 or 8 speed freewheel and fit a 135mm frame. Freewheels have much larger diameter ratchets than freehubs.
 
DingusMcGee said:
Chalo,

What out there in freehub world of all the varieties could be said to be the White Industries equivalent?

I think we ebikers have not examined the freehub market to have much of an idea what is the strongest freehub. There must be some 100 freehubs other than Shimano.

See:

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pages/search-results?limit=24&q=Freehub


https://www.niagaracycle.com/search.php?search_query=Freehub

Some of those shown have quite large pawls. I suppose steel alloy ones are stronger but how much $$ are you willing to spend to find out what is strongest?

I am not disappointed in having spent the $120 for SickBikeParts proprietary version of the White Industries BB freewheel as it far outlasts the Orient material. But there maybe far stronger freehubs out there than the standard Shimano freehub and little need to have a fixed version on the rear wheel?

The DT siwss 350 hubs are by far the stongest ones. They are rated upto 400nm. They engage on 5x the surface of pawl hubs, because they use a patented and completely different mechanism. The engagement is only 18t though, which can be changed to 36 or 54, but might affect the durability.

They have an ebike specific line that has steel cassette splines, can handle 500nm and has 24t engagement, but I'm not sure about aftermarket availability, if you click through the links they have wheel sets for sale though.

https://www.missionhybrid.dtswiss.com/
 
Chalo said:
jonnydrive said:
Tommm said:
If your solution works let us know.

It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.

That is such a bad idea. I mean, fixed gears generally are already a terrible idea, but fixed gearing with a derailleur? It's a whole raft of unnecessary problems.

Remember that nothing else in your drivetrain is designed for more torque and power than a freehub body is designed for.

Chalo,
no fixed gears on my build, I have a regular 10 gears mtb cassette! The only difference of as standard mtb is that there is no freehub: the cassette is fixed with the wheel.

When the wheel spin also the cassette does, in both directions.

during downhill I have noticed a chain bouncing that can be a problem without a proper chain guide/tensioner
 
Tommm said:
jonnydrive said:
Sorry for my poor explanation :lol: I mean: if you release the throttle the chain still spin because it is dragged by the wheel. On every bounce of the bike the chain inflect (the derailleur keep the chain stretched or at least it tries...) and spin, the combination of inflection and spinnging provides a chain bounce (I will try to do a video to explain this)

Your chainring can spin without the pedal or motor working it? Is the engagement instant now or the motor freewheel still has some delay?
I bought a derailleur with a clutch(adjustable ultra strong spring) so on the bottom part I am fine. I have seen vids where the top bounces too, not sure what can be done with that. You might need a roller, even better a spring loaded one.

https://mdmetric.com/regincrt.htm

yes, I have a freewheel on the pedal crank and also the motor have its own freewheel (1 ex freehub, 1 pedal freewhell, 1 motor freewheel), so rear wheel + chain + chainring are locked together but run independently from pedals and engine.
No noticeable delay during engagement.

I am afraid that friction added by a chain tensioner as the ones in your pictures could be a problem, remember that the chain during downhill is dragged from the wheel and not from the cranckset.

Maybe by adding another spring to the derailleur could avoid the chain bounce, some mods to the derailleur are coming :D
 
jonnydrive said:
during downhill I have noticed a chain bouncing that can be a problem without a proper chain guide/tensioner

Is the top or the bottom part bouncing worse? I guess its the top as there is nothing to hold tension.
 
DingusMcGee said:
My freehubs are Shimano and they far outlast my chains. The rear derailleur and shifting play a part in shortening chain life. Since I have removed both derailleurs, I am seeing longer chain life. I had a talk with Staton, Inc about what options there are for switching to just a little bigger chain than the 9 speed chain.

very cool DingusMcGee, for sure you gain in reliability, but if your bike is geared correctly for the mountain probably on city commute will be very sluggish .... for a mono/purpouse bike will be a perfect solution, I would try something flexible 8) 8)
 
Tommm said:
jonnydrive said:
during downhill I have noticed a chain bouncing that can be a problem without a proper chain guide/tensioner

Is the top or the bottom part bouncing worse? I guess its the top as there is nothing to hold tension.

the bottom one is the worst, it is quite unusual, also I have bet that the main problem was the upper part.
Probably is more difficult engage the right gear on the cassette because of a greater frictions or misalignment of the derailleur
 
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