Tesla Model 3

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Alan B » Apr 25 2018 6:45pm

The battery to total pack weight is about 50% on many vehicle packs, with armoring, cooling systems, bus bars, BMS equipment, fusing, wiring, etc. Even if the batteries get lighter there is a lot more weight than just cells when incorporated into the vehicle.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by TheBeastie » Apr 27 2018 4:02am

Pajda wrote:
Apr 25 2018 2:18pm
Punx0r wrote:
Apr 25 2018 2:02pm
Seems like in that scenario you are paying for a lot of battery that you will never use, and have to lug around for the vehicles' lifetime.
That is good question. Elon musk (I hate that i must so often quote him, but he is right in many questions) sees the optimum in "500 km range battery pack" = equal to 100 kWh battery in TMS/X or 80 kWh in TM3 with the capability of fast charging and a dense network of charging stations. I personally agree with him in this point and I see the 200 kWh pack for Roadster gen.2 as a marketing which says they are still "a light year ahead"
I wonder if anyone has done any decent analysis of the efficiencies gained via a all electric car motor vs an ICE car when including lugging around a 700-1000kg battery.
It seems like the efficiencies gained in energy conversion in EVs from the battery to wheel are quite possibly lost when you include lugging around a huge weight in battery?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Punx0r » Apr 27 2018 9:35am

You'd like that to be the case, but it's not. Funny enough, the stated efficiency of production EVs (the MPGe or whatever) include the heavy battery!

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by parabellum » Apr 27 2018 11:23am

TheBeastie wrote:
Apr 27 2018 4:02am
when including lugging around a 700-1000kg battery.
Do not forget, including 700kg battery you throw away over 500kg of ICE crap at those power levels.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Alan B » Apr 27 2018 11:38am

parabellum wrote:
Apr 27 2018 11:23am
TheBeastie wrote:
Apr 27 2018 4:02am
when including lugging around a 700-1000kg battery.
Do not forget, including 700kg battery you throw away over 500kg of ICE crap at those power levels.
This seems unlikely. There is other electric gear weight, and ICE gear doesn't weigh that much.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by parabellum » Apr 27 2018 12:01pm

Alan B wrote:
Apr 27 2018 11:38am
parabellum wrote:
Apr 27 2018 11:23am
TheBeastie wrote:
Apr 27 2018 4:02am
when including lugging around a 700-1000kg battery.
Do not forget, including 700kg battery you throw away over 500kg of ICE crap at those power levels.
This seems unlikely. There is other electric gear weight, and ICE gear doesn't weigh that much.
Really? How much does one ICE motor weights, that can make 760HP, +trany that can transfer this power + auxiliary systems, like cooling, exhaust with cats etc.?
Remember, it should be reliable, not those sport car match boxes that need a mechanical assistance every few miles at aggressive use levels.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Apr 27 2018 1:17pm

parabellum wrote:
Apr 27 2018 11:23am
Do not forget, including 700kg battery you throw away over 500kg of ICE crap at those power levels.
Interestingly, the Prius Prime has been the third EV I've owned and it's also the most efficient in EV-only mode - and it keeps all that ICE stuff. (It gets 4.3 miles per kwhr.) Of course, the much smaller 9kwhr battery helps there.
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Apr 27 2018 11:25pm

parabellum wrote:
Apr 27 2018 12:01pm
Really? How much does one ICE motor weights, that can make 760HP, +trany that can transfer this power + auxiliary systems, like cooling, exhaust with cats etc.?
Google is your friend... :wink:
Porche Turbo engine , Trans, ancilliaries,.... 561 lbs. (255kg). Maybe add 100kg for cooling sys , exhaust, and fuel tank etc.?
Still not quite up to Tesla S100D motors and transmission......920 lbs. (420kg)50kg
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Chalo » Apr 28 2018 4:26am

And yet, the Tesla kicks the Porsche into the weeds regardless.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Dauntless » Apr 28 2018 9:36pm

Chalo wrote:
Apr 28 2018 4:26am
And yet, the Tesla kicks the Porsche into the weeds regardless.
Such a bully.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » Apr 29 2018 3:18pm

Why do we want to make 760hp for a family car ? Are they entering the pike peaks hill climb for a scenic holiday ?

In the UK ford fiesta uses a 3 cylinder 1.0 litre ecoboost and this gets around 40 mpg with 120bhp plenty to get around to the local shops or travel a long distance.

The kurb weight of this car is the equivalent of two tesla 100kwh batterys 1150kg and can travel around 400miles off a fuel tank of just 42litres around 9 gallons this has very little environmental impact and I can buy 8 of them brand new to one tesla so it's not going to win the green car of the year like everyone thinks it is as really its a toff's chariot for the road.

Really what we need is a car that is the fiesta of electric simular specs range and good charging capability and produced in numbers that can rival the model t and I forgot it needs to be affordable and practical.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by parabellum » May 01 2018 3:30pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 27 2018 11:25pm
parabellum wrote:
Apr 27 2018 12:01pm
Really? How much does one ICE motor weights, that can make 760HP, +trany that can transfer this power + auxiliary systems, like cooling, exhaust with cats etc.?
Google is your friend... :wink:
Porche Turbo engine , Trans, ancilliaries,.... 561 lbs. (255kg). Maybe add 100kg for cooling sys , exhaust, and fuel tank etc.?
Still not quite up to Tesla S100D motors and transmission......920 lbs. (420kg)50kg
So that why little matchbox of Porsche 911 GT2 RS, that got this 700HP motor, made of titanium, carbon fibre, magnesium and rest of unobtenium, weights 3,241 pounds?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » May 01 2018 11:49pm

parabellum wrote:
May 01 2018 3:30pm
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 27 2018 11:25pm
parabellum wrote:
Apr 27 2018 12:01pm
Really? How much does one ICE motor weights, that can make 760HP, +trany that can transfer this power + auxiliary systems, like cooling, exhaust with cats etc.?
Google is your friend... :wink:
Porche Turbo engine , Trans, ancilliaries,.... 561 lbs. (255kg). Maybe add 100kg for cooling sys , exhaust, and fuel tank etc.?
Still not quite up to Tesla S100D motors and transmission......920 lbs. (420kg)50kg
So that why little matchbox of Porsche 911 GT2 RS, that got this 700HP motor, made of titanium, carbon fibre, magnesium and rest of unobtenium, weights 3,241 pounds?
Ahh ! , but 1000lbs of that is from the CF wing generating downforce even when standing still ! :shock: :lol:
But I didnt realise this was a "weight watchers". competition ?
..... if it is then the Porsche wins by a country mile ( or 1,700 lbs) less than the Tesla ! (Tesla is 50%+ heavier )
Infact you could drop the complete battery pack out of the Tesla, and it would still weigh more than the Porsche !
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by parabellum » May 02 2018 12:53am

Hillhater wrote:
May 01 2018 11:49pm
Ahh ! , but 1000lbs of that is from the CF wing generating downforce even when standing still ! :shock: :lol:
But I didnt realise this was a "weight watchers". competition ?
..... if it is then the Porsche wins by a country mile ( or 1,700 lbs) less than the Tesla ! (Tesla is 50%+ heavier )
Infact you could drop the complete battery pack out of the Tesla, and it would still weigh more than the Porsche !
Quite a achievement for a car that comfortably fits 2 mid size dogs, I would sit all 7 passengers in to Tesla, just to be sure. :)

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by wineboyrider » May 02 2018 3:45pm

Ianhill wrote:
Apr 29 2018 3:18pm
Why do we want to make 760hp for a family car ? Are they entering the pike peaks hill climb for a scenic holiday ?

In the UK ford fiesta uses a 3 cylinder 1.0 litre ecoboost and this gets around 40 mpg with 120bhp plenty to get around to the local shops or travel a long distance.

The kurb weight of this car is the equivalent of two tesla 100kwh batterys 1150kg and can travel around 400miles off a fuel tank of just 42litres around 9 gallons this has very little environmental impact and I can buy 8 of them brand new to one tesla so it's not going to win the green car of the year like everyone thinks it is as really its a toff's chariot for the road.

Really what we need is a car that is the fiesta of electric simular specs range and good charging capability and produced in numbers that can rival the model t and I forgot it needs to be affordable and practical.
^^^Exactly.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » May 02 2018 3:49pm

Ianhill wrote:
Apr 29 2018 3:18pm
Really what we need is a car that is the fiesta of electric simular specs range and good charging capability and produced in numbers that can rival the model t and I forgot it needs to be affordable and practical.
How about the Bolt or the Prius Prime?
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » May 02 2018 3:57pm

wineboyrider wrote:
May 02 2018 3:45pm
Ianhill wrote:
Apr 29 2018 3:18pm
Why do we want to make 760hp for a family car ? Are they entering the pike peaks hill climb for a scenic holiday ?

In the UK ford fiesta uses a 3 cylinder 1.0 litre ecoboost and this gets around 40 mpg with 120bhp plenty to get around to the local shops or travel a long distance.

The kurb weight of this car is the equivalent of two tesla 100kwh batterys 1150kg and can travel around 400miles off a fuel tank of just 42litres around 9 gallons this has very little environmental impact and I can buy 8 of them brand new to one tesla so it's not going to win the green car of the year like everyone thinks it is as really its a toff's chariot for the road.

Really what we need is a car that is the fiesta of electric simular specs range and good charging capability and produced in numbers that can rival the model t and I forgot it needs to be affordable and practical.
^^^Exactly.
You guys know the P100D is option you can just get a 100D right?
Nothing is forcing you to spend more money on a faster family car. Thats an option for those who want it.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » May 02 2018 4:02pm

Let's say that I could order a base model 3 tomorrow it would still be out of reach to me price wise and that's the basic package and to me it's still to overpowered and flash, my cars get a hurting and it don't look like the type of car you fold the seats down put a sheet in there and fill it up with junk for the tip it's nice to the eye and pleasing but to expensive to be abused. I really like the bolt as a package it ticks all the boxes other than its not available in the UK not sure on the prius prime it's still £25k new and that's double a normal hatchback.

For me I think the future maybe an electric conversion of a current ice car with a crashed electric donar and use custom controller.

But for the general public I'm afraid they will be priced off the road and ownership of cars as we know it is going to change over time ford pulling out is just the start of a big shift.

In my area that means our local engine plant will be gone with 1700 jobs and loads of supporting jobs gone too along with many other closures Wales needs to work out a future fast, the government is in a mess locally and united so what's in for the long run over here other than restriction and tax is anyone's guess but it's not looking good.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » May 02 2018 5:45pm

Ianhill wrote:
May 02 2018 4:02pm
I really like the bolt as a package it ticks all the boxes other than its not available in the UK not sure on the prius prime it's still £25k new and that's double a normal hatchback.
The Prime is US$10K less than the Bolt.
For me I think the future maybe an electric conversion of a current ice car with a crashed electric donar and use custom controller.
Well, you can get a used Leaf for almost nothing. Get the Leaf, put a 50kWhr battery in it and you'll have a very low cost EV. And you won't need a custom controller or motor plate or anything, just some electronics to spoof the battery's CAN bus interface.
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » May 02 2018 5:57pm

Im not sure on the pricing of the bolt or what charging it uses other than it looked more of a down to earth honest car take a bit of ruff and tumble as for self service and parts maintenance I don't think that what any manufacture want these days really and with the high voltage systems I can can see this being an area of concern in the future to potential diy'ers for meeting fire regulation etc.

I'll be honest the leaf does look to be a good candidate for modding, If a tesla inverter was hacked to work along side the standard bms and the cells could take a more rapid charge then that would be enough for me.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » May 02 2018 6:46pm

Ianhill wrote:
May 02 2018 5:57pm
I'll be honest the leaf does look to be a good candidate for modding, If a tesla inverter was hacked to work along side the standard bms and the cells could take a more rapid charge then that would be enough for me.
The standard Leaf pack can take a 40kW charge (i.e. 80% charge in 30 minutes.) I'd be surprised if you needed faster than that. I don't think you'd need a "Tesla inverter" - the existing one works pretty well, and gives you 80kW. Nor do I think it would work well - IIRC the Leaf uses a BLDC motor, rather than the Tesla S/X induction motor.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » May 02 2018 7:00pm

I wouldn't want to use the inverter to take over the motor running tasks it would be more for charging at home to give a decent charge rate and 40kw in the house is never going to be achievable even with 230v over 10kw is not going to happen but the inverter could be hacked to use both 230v or a 400v 3 phase supply for a stand alone 10-22kw charger that could charge to 80% in 1 hour 20 min's ;) if you have access to a commercial supply.

You may know more about the units true specs but I'm sure this is possible and there's even open source ardunio software for basic control and monitoring of such a unit not that I've ever built one mind.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » May 02 2018 7:05pm

If you want more performance than standarf Leaf,...search out member "Arlo" and his mods to the Leaf inverter for 200+ kW. There is a lot of potential in that motor package.
Batteries will be your main limit/cost.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=63982
And if you are unsure about the practicality of the Prius, read "craneplaneguy" thread on how he uses his Plug in Prius. If you can find one, they are gems.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 34&t=83410
Last edited by Hillhater on May 02 2018 7:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » May 02 2018 7:17pm

Hillhater wrote:
May 02 2018 7:05pm
If you want more performance than standarf Leaf,...search out member "Arlo" and his mods to the Leaf inverter for 200+ kW. There is a lot of potential in that motor package.
Batteries will be your main limit/cost.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=63982
Thumbs up for the tip off.
Ive not seen his work on that thread I'll check it out he seems a decent chap and knowledgeable guy schooled me on igbt''s and mosfets on resistance sounds basic but means alot when it comes to efficency every day we learn more full and rounded we become.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by TheBeastie » May 05 2018 1:01am

Anyone see the twitter storm from Musk when he cut off investors about M3 production? Apparently, those analysts were in fact quite bullish and supportive of Tesla. And Musk just hated being asked questions about M3 production.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05- ... al-carnage

While there are plenty of EV makers in China (for the China car market only) who use zero-cobalt lithium cells, its widely accepted this is for no other reason other than to produce a cheap EV where the battery is expected to be replaced in 5 years due to significantly lower total cycles of the pack (this is what you get when you dont add cobalt)

On the question about cobalt they issued the standard line of "Tesla has worked on reducing cobalt usage “for literally several years now, and this has been extremely helpful in the overall cost per kilowatt hour, especially with recent commodity price movements,” Jeffrey Straubel, Tesla’s chief technology officer, said on the call."

I thought this statement was interesting, which is what I have wondered about, and that is the fact that Cobalt based lithium cells being the king of performance is clearly going to be with us for a very long time, and there isn't anything a few years away replacing it.
Within 10 years, there’s little prospect of cobalt-bearing batteries being usurped by other technologies
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -conundrum

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2018 ... ergy-intl/

http://pmd.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/ ... -graph.mp4
http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2 ... index.html

I know the general attitude on all this is from most folks on here "oh those people must die because they make EVs look bad" but I just can't get past the fact folks have to make up their mind if they really believe they are making the world a better place or not.
The iPhone uses a battery thats entire weight is 26grams ( https://www.theverge.com/2015/9/12/9315 ... ne-heavier ) compared to the average 500kg of a Tesla car? And no one, ever, buys a mobile phone claiming/believing they are making the world a better place.

https://youtu.be/GvBiVqKHPPg
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles range https://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
Fuel-Cell is the ultimate battery coupled with 4th-gen Nuclear https://goo.gl/ZhFFot
https://goo.gl/gfa215
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

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