jonnydrive
100 W
Tommm said:
The settings above are related to Motor Temperature
new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?
- Thread starter emaayan
- Start date
The settings above are related to Motor Temperature
jonnydrive said:
Interesting. If the motor doesn't have a sensor in it(and I haven't read it does) you would need to wire one up to somehow be compatible with that controller. Tbh, I'm going the arduino route anyway, automatic temp throttling sounds like a great idea.
.
As I already mentioned, there are several parts at risk when temps rise, including:
bearing side seals
Halls
generic solder
However, I'd also like to remind everyone that most ebikes use a "medium grade" of affordable neodymium, so...they can permanently lose some of their magnetic power if they get too hot even once...
Also, if your motor is reaching more than 160F / 71C, then...I personally feel that you are converting way too many battery watts into waste heat. I still think 200F / 93C is a good "hard ceiling", but...if you are actually reaching 200F, then you should sell that motor while it still runs, and buy a bigger motor (or swap to a smaller-diameter rim, or both...).
DingusMcGee
10 kW
Checking my CA-v3 i see my temp shut down settings are quite close to Spinning Mag's temp limits.
The settings are: retard allowed power when motor reaches 90C and shut down all power to motor at 96C.
All BDCMs obey Thevanins Equivalent Circuit for Power. At maximum motor output power the efficiency is 50%. This max output occurs in rpm very close to 50% of full no load rpm. Your gearing makes some difference in overheating but always the other 50% of the energy bill is heat when at max power.
I have done some testing with active motor air cooling which has been reported earlier in this thread. I was able to reduce final motor temp on a 6 mi road climb by 30C degrees. I did not add more allowable amps to see what reductions I might get in run times and still not burn up the motor.
But as SpMag says get a bigger motor if you are burning the c3000 up or add active cooling. My electric car has active air cooling but the manual says drop to an lower gear if the overheat light comes on. Another option for some would be to loose some weight so the motor does not lug as much when on a hill etc.
Another way to reduce chances of overheating is to only do these all out runs when the ambient temperature is quite low -- maybe move to Antarctica?
And if you need all out speed do not even bother with this puny motor....
The settings are: retard allowed power when motor reaches 90C and shut down all power to motor at 96C.
All BDCMs obey Thevanins Equivalent Circuit for Power. At maximum motor output power the efficiency is 50%. This max output occurs in rpm very close to 50% of full no load rpm. Your gearing makes some difference in overheating but always the other 50% of the energy bill is heat when at max power.
I have done some testing with active motor air cooling which has been reported earlier in this thread. I was able to reduce final motor temp on a 6 mi road climb by 30C degrees. I did not add more allowable amps to see what reductions I might get in run times and still not burn up the motor.
But as SpMag says get a bigger motor if you are burning the c3000 up or add active cooling. My electric car has active air cooling but the manual says drop to an lower gear if the overheat light comes on. Another option for some would be to loose some weight so the motor does not lug as much when on a hill etc.
Another way to reduce chances of overheating is to only do these all out runs when the ambient temperature is quite low -- maybe move to Antarctica?
And if you need all out speed do not even bother with this puny motor....
DingusMcGee said:
So you are the one who did the copper pipe. It looks and works great, but I wonder if you need to filter the air somehow if doing something like that(fins or similar) as a daily?
Instead of a pipe it would look like this on the same side of the motor, perhaps another pair looking backwards for the air exit:
If course, in an active cooling setup, filtering would be straightforward with a small round filter in front of a small ~20w 12v electric fan pushing air in.
Aerialpixels
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2017
- Messages
- 20
Hey guys. Thought I'd chime in. Build is done and while I've only ridden it a few times, I figured this and subsequent posts may be helpful. I've had a BBSHD running 88v for 6 months in combo with a Phaserunner. Top speed has hit 53Mph and its been dead reliable. Thought I'd try a cyclone to see if I liked it.
One thing I can definitely say right out of the gate is that my kit included the green Bac 800 controller from Luna Cycle and I hate it. The Phaserunner is based on it but the difference is Grin actually gives you support and a manual. Getting a manual for the ASI controller is like pulling teeth. The Bac 800 comes with a 24 wire connector and Luna cuts off every wire they don't use including the ones used to connect to the controller to program it. While they claim it's perfectly tuned and plug and play, nothing could be further from the truth. The connectors didn't even match the motor and after soldering new connectors on, the controller faults out with no load and light throttle. Couldn't be more annoyed.
I installed the phaserunner and auto tuned the motor using these base settings:
Set pole count to 24
Motor is actually 4 pole pairs (8 magnets) x 6 (internal planetary ratio) =24
Kv is approx 12
900 rpm / 72v = 12.5 kv
96 phase amps
5000w limit
Sensorless (for now)
Leave battery voltage default 48 (important)
Flux weakening 40 amps
Sensorless start current 60a
Hit autotune and it measures the windings resistance, spins the motor for 15 seconds and calculates the exact motor kv.
At the bottom of the screen I set Rad to 3 (also important)
Using lipo packs - 21s and cycle analyst v3
44 t large cog to cyclone
36 to Sram x1 rear 1150 cassette.
88v max. Power fully adjustable on a dial.
So far I can tell you this motor is completely different than my BBSHD on the same voltage. BBSHD is far smoother and revs higher with the same settings. While I can go 0-42 in my granny gear (44 chain to 50 rear) the cyclone cannot match this. (yet)
However I'm confident that top speed of cyclone will be faster, just in a different gear. Torque of the cyclone is significantly higher than the BBSHD. Cyclone feels more like a diesel truck with crazy towing capacity while BBSHD feels like an refined Audi.
Noise.
I use the red Mobile 28 grease in the BBSHD and it's so quiet. Cyclone sounds like a jeep with a manual transmission backing up. Opened the cyclone, cleaned the brown grease out and packet it with Mobil 28. Much better!
Stock freewheel on chainring locked up before I even rode the bike. Unreal. Sick bike parts ultra heavy duty freewheel installed. Much smoother and far less noise.
Also replaced crap chain tensioner jockey wheel with a Shimano which has a ball bearing in it. Also much more quiet.
Phaserunner is delivering about 60 amps with current settings and battery was half dead on my first run (down to 79v from 88) total wattage to motor was about 4500 though I do expect more.
Phaserunner has Enzotec copper heatsink and barely warms up. Motor temps were about 120F so far.
Now, the most frustrating part so far has been Hall sensor related. The phaserunner detects and sets the offset without a problem and software shows all three working but I'm having some faults related to phase current I am resolving. Grin asked me to send them an export of Phaserunner setting to help. In the meantime, sensorless is actually running so good I barely can tell the difference.
I read Kelly controllers need 12v to the halls to operate a cyclone. Tried that with Phaserunner and can support better and more stable detection but this didn't solve the issues.
More to come...
One thing I can definitely say right out of the gate is that my kit included the green Bac 800 controller from Luna Cycle and I hate it. The Phaserunner is based on it but the difference is Grin actually gives you support and a manual. Getting a manual for the ASI controller is like pulling teeth. The Bac 800 comes with a 24 wire connector and Luna cuts off every wire they don't use including the ones used to connect to the controller to program it. While they claim it's perfectly tuned and plug and play, nothing could be further from the truth. The connectors didn't even match the motor and after soldering new connectors on, the controller faults out with no load and light throttle. Couldn't be more annoyed.
I installed the phaserunner and auto tuned the motor using these base settings:
Set pole count to 24
Motor is actually 4 pole pairs (8 magnets) x 6 (internal planetary ratio) =24
Kv is approx 12
900 rpm / 72v = 12.5 kv
96 phase amps
5000w limit
Sensorless (for now)
Leave battery voltage default 48 (important)
Flux weakening 40 amps
Sensorless start current 60a
Hit autotune and it measures the windings resistance, spins the motor for 15 seconds and calculates the exact motor kv.
At the bottom of the screen I set Rad to 3 (also important)
Using lipo packs - 21s and cycle analyst v3
44 t large cog to cyclone
36 to Sram x1 rear 1150 cassette.
88v max. Power fully adjustable on a dial.
So far I can tell you this motor is completely different than my BBSHD on the same voltage. BBSHD is far smoother and revs higher with the same settings. While I can go 0-42 in my granny gear (44 chain to 50 rear) the cyclone cannot match this. (yet)
However I'm confident that top speed of cyclone will be faster, just in a different gear. Torque of the cyclone is significantly higher than the BBSHD. Cyclone feels more like a diesel truck with crazy towing capacity while BBSHD feels like an refined Audi.
Noise.
I use the red Mobile 28 grease in the BBSHD and it's so quiet. Cyclone sounds like a jeep with a manual transmission backing up. Opened the cyclone, cleaned the brown grease out and packet it with Mobil 28. Much better!
Stock freewheel on chainring locked up before I even rode the bike. Unreal. Sick bike parts ultra heavy duty freewheel installed. Much smoother and far less noise.
Also replaced crap chain tensioner jockey wheel with a Shimano which has a ball bearing in it. Also much more quiet.
Phaserunner is delivering about 60 amps with current settings and battery was half dead on my first run (down to 79v from 88) total wattage to motor was about 4500 though I do expect more.
Phaserunner has Enzotec copper heatsink and barely warms up. Motor temps were about 120F so far.
Now, the most frustrating part so far has been Hall sensor related. The phaserunner detects and sets the offset without a problem and software shows all three working but I'm having some faults related to phase current I am resolving. Grin asked me to send them an export of Phaserunner setting to help. In the meantime, sensorless is actually running so good I barely can tell the difference.
I read Kelly controllers need 12v to the halls to operate a cyclone. Tried that with Phaserunner and can support better and more stable detection but this didn't solve the issues.
More to come...
Aerialpixels
I’m guessing the point of the updated controllers from Luna cycle, or anyone is to get more power/torque out of the standard cyclone motor. Going from 4hp to 6hp is a big deal. That is understandable to me if it’s plug and play and works like it should without the headaches you are going through. There could be a reason and it’s Luna cycle selling these controllers and it’s not entirely proven to work for even above average technical types. Expanding their product line is what it is. Sick bike parts keeps it simple. I had an empty padded mailer arrive from Luna without the bhsd wrench in it that was supposed to be there. I didn’t even bother with the refund, but let them know their shipping supplies were weak.
I liked how you compared the cyclone to the bhsd as truck and Audi. Ever go riding with with a 2 stroke guy? The cyclone excels in every way except range and ease of refueling. Pedal start, stalls at a stand still, fiddling with air bypass screw trying to get it to idle, noise, smell. Glad I didn’t get involved in the gas world.
I’m guessing the point of the updated controllers from Luna cycle, or anyone is to get more power/torque out of the standard cyclone motor. Going from 4hp to 6hp is a big deal. That is understandable to me if it’s plug and play and works like it should without the headaches you are going through. There could be a reason and it’s Luna cycle selling these controllers and it’s not entirely proven to work for even above average technical types. Expanding their product line is what it is. Sick bike parts keeps it simple. I had an empty padded mailer arrive from Luna without the bhsd wrench in it that was supposed to be there. I didn’t even bother with the refund, but let them know their shipping supplies were weak.
I liked how you compared the cyclone to the bhsd as truck and Audi. Ever go riding with with a 2 stroke guy? The cyclone excels in every way except range and ease of refueling. Pedal start, stalls at a stand still, fiddling with air bypass screw trying to get it to idle, noise, smell. Glad I didn’t get involved in the gas world.
So I have the stock luna cycle kit on my cargo bike. It stopped working and I was getting a clicking sound similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuSzTcnIZco, but a little different and not as loud. I took the cover off and replaced the hall sensors. It still does the same thing. As I was doing this, I noticed that one of the phase wires was very hot. I took a thermal picture of the motor with the cover off.
The motor got up to around 110C without actually spinning (just clicking). the heat was on the windings.
The controller also was very hot. I took a thermal picture of that and the left side has heat. I think thats the row of the MOSFETS. Does anyone think this controller is bad? There is also the possibility that the hall sensors are not replaced properly, but would that cause the controller to heat up so much?
![size]](/sphere/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5BATTACH+type%3D%22full%22+alt%3D%22img_thermal_1524290304482.jpg%22%5D233718._xfImport%5B%2FATTACH%5D%5Bsize%3D2%5D%5B%2Fsize%5D&hash=7c60f7c1ee6982d23fae29b698d55b97)
The motor got up to around 110C without actually spinning (just clicking). the heat was on the windings.
The controller also was very hot. I took a thermal picture of that and the left side has heat. I think thats the row of the MOSFETS. Does anyone think this controller is bad? There is also the possibility that the hall sensors are not replaced properly, but would that cause the controller to heat up so much?
Attachments
rovieng said:So I have the stock luna cycle kit on my cargo bike. It stopped working and I was getting a clicking sound similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuSzTcnIZco, but a little different and not as loud. I took the cover off and replaced the hall sensors. It still does the same thing. As I was doing this, I noticed that one of the phase wires was very hot. I took a thermal picture of the motor with the cover off.
The motor got up to around 110C without actually spinning (just clicking). the heat was on the windings.
The controller also was very hot. I took a thermal picture of that and the left side has heat. I think thats the row of the MOSFETS. Does anyone think this controller is bad? There is also the possibility that the hall sensors are not replaced properly, but would that cause the controller to heat up so much?
![size]](/sphere/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg_thermal_1524290304482.jpg%5Bsize%3D2%5D%5B%2Fsize%5D&hash=18dd49fa101ec5eb3a35a0a2653e17c1)
Friend, if you are giving the motor power, and it is not turning, it is simply a (bad) space heater. So regarding the heat it is just a symptom and was working as designed.
You need to find the root cause of the clicking and not turning issue.
Chalo
100 TW
flat tire said:
By "gimp the power", so you mean run it within spec?
DingusMcGee
10 kW
roveing,
By another c3000 motor and controller as you likely need one or the other or maybe both of them. Then you can use this working system to plug and play one at a time of the suspected not working components of your old motor/controller to find out which pieces are not working.
By another c3000 motor and controller as you likely need one or the other or maybe both of them. Then you can use this working system to plug and play one at a time of the suspected not working components of your old motor/controller to find out which pieces are not working.
DingusMcGee
10 kW
"Tame" may be correct, but despite you are very unlikely to do wheelies while hill climbing with the soft setting, the CA-V3's throttle adjustment beats all the programmable controllers throttle adjustment features I have tried for getting the ideal throttle response for such things as steep sidehill trail-less riding that have no shelf like trails that make for flat riding and easy steering.
The CA V3 working with the 40 amp controller instead of the 60 amp controller is quite adequate as I had to set back the 60 amp to 40 amps to keep from getting an ocassional wheelie on hill climbs. The 40 amp controller can drag me up steep gulley crossings 50 feet deep where the finish slope measures 68% and the zero speed "V" bottom measured 84%. These slopes were measured with a digital RO level.
My weight is 160 lbs. It is likely if you weight in at 200 lbs you will need a few more more amps to top out of this gulley moving. Gearing equivalent to 26" wheel is 22/44 x 32/48 x 24/26 and get this: no over heating problems despite the motor is briefly bogged on this crossing.
Fat tire bikes seem to take about twice the energy to move as this 55 lb x 2.7 tire edirtbike I use on these side hills.
evolutiongts
10 kW
Aerialpixels said:
That's what happens when you buy from Luna Cycle. Terrible support. You can just create your own wiring harness, I believe the BAC 800 uses the same pin out the BAC 500 I could be mistaken. Molex connectors.
ASI support is slow but you get help if you are patient. You can only get a ASI account if you are a ASI customer then you get access to their support documentation and software.
Can anyone who has his 3 speed setup working help out a little.
The high speed mode (pink to black) works fine connecting them with a wire.
The low speed mode (blue to black) does not work, the controller does not turn the motor at all.
With a low ohm resistor it does the same as with the wire, with a high ohm resistor it ignores the connection.
Is there some kind of special resistor needed in this mode or is the controller faulty?
I measure 5v to the black wire from both the pink and blue wires.
The high speed mode (pink to black) works fine connecting them with a wire.
The low speed mode (blue to black) does not work, the controller does not turn the motor at all.
With a low ohm resistor it does the same as with the wire, with a high ohm resistor it ignores the connection.
Is there some kind of special resistor needed in this mode or is the controller faulty?
I measure 5v to the black wire from both the pink and blue wires.
jonnydrive
100 W
Tommm said:
To make it working I have tried with all the the combinations of the tree wires and monitor the engine speed results. In one of the combinations the engine did not work.
jonnydrive said:
So reading from the bluetooth app. I can successfully set it to "Energy mode" connecting the two 5v rails. It will not move the motor, but on the app it shows I am adding amps by modulating the throttle. "High speed" mode, the phase weakening works as advertised.
With that, I have tried every possible combination.
I guess it simply isn't going to work.
There is a "speed setting" on the controller, and it can dial it down to 30%, but I was wishing for a lot more, it is possible to set 10% in the app for the low speed mode switch, but as I figured here that switch isn't gonna work soon.
Tommm
Are you trying to limit or govern the speed of the cyclone motor? I had to install a trim pot or adjustable potentometer to a domino throttle to get it to not cut out at max throttle. Was sending 5v and I needed 4.8v if my memory is correct. The input 5v voltage to the throttle was lowered just a bit.
My point. I found this could also be used as a speed/power limiter to the cyclone if you are giving test rides or you need to tame it down for child riders. This may not work for you. It’s similar to putting a screw in the throttle to limit its twist range, but less of a hack and you still get full throttle use, just a limited top power/speed.
Thought I’d share as it might help you out.
What is the speed of the cyclone if no switch is used? Max?
Not in numbers but like high med low. I’m figuring the switch limits the cyclone? So no switch no limit.
Are you trying to limit or govern the speed of the cyclone motor? I had to install a trim pot or adjustable potentometer to a domino throttle to get it to not cut out at max throttle. Was sending 5v and I needed 4.8v if my memory is correct. The input 5v voltage to the throttle was lowered just a bit.
My point. I found this could also be used as a speed/power limiter to the cyclone if you are giving test rides or you need to tame it down for child riders. This may not work for you. It’s similar to putting a screw in the throttle to limit its twist range, but less of a hack and you still get full throttle use, just a limited top power/speed.
Thought I’d share as it might help you out.
What is the speed of the cyclone if no switch is used? Max?
Not in numbers but like high med low. I’m figuring the switch limits the cyclone? So no switch no limit.
Skaiwerd said:
The high speed mode switch enables phase weakening. It allows the motor to run at a higher rpm than the rated kv. It is an inherently less efficient process and it is better ti just shift to a higher gear on a mid drive.
The low speed mode is simply mean to cut the max rpm.
The settings are 80/100/120% of rated rpm, and should be able to be overridden with the overspeed setting in the bluetooth app.
I use the thumb throttle with led display.
It never cuts out. My throttle is perfect.
The pas of the cyclone is too similar to an on off switch, and that is a bit dangerous on a 4kw machine. So I'm trying to limit max rpm and acceleration too of the pas function. I got the acceleration down with the soft start setting).
You are probably right, since the pas cable is just a replica of the 3 throttle wires, with the pas on/off switch telling the controller which 3 wire throttle set to listen to and ignore.
It should be possible to set it and forget with some resistor on the signal wire.
Scott76308
10 µW
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2016
- Messages
- 5
Wow!!! Up to 120 pages now. I think I have read about 80 in the past. I finally have my Cyclone build done and sorted out. It was a long road but I now have a kick ass 72v Cyclone full suspension Cannondale mountainbike. Has been done for a few months and I just haven't had time to play with it and have decided to put it up for sale. I hope putting this link is allowed, mi[Moderation: no, it's not.]
Scott76308
I have a saying about home built ebikes. “It’s never bolt on and go”
Also
“It’s a modified kit” is and understatement with the cyclone.
I’ve chosen to stick with the stock controllers to avoid your type of headaches. Haven’t tried the 60A from Luna but it’s in the works. It’s just the stock controller with the shunt work done and the Bluetooth module added. That extra 1000watts takes a lot of effort to figure out with the non stock controller. I’m fine with the batt man over the cycle analysit too. Just looks like a headache.
Decent price in the bike. If you build them you know what goes into it and the time it takes to get it going nicely.
I have a saying about home built ebikes. “It’s never bolt on and go”
Also
“It’s a modified kit” is and understatement with the cyclone.
I’ve chosen to stick with the stock controllers to avoid your type of headaches. Haven’t tried the 60A from Luna but it’s in the works. It’s just the stock controller with the shunt work done and the Bluetooth module added. That extra 1000watts takes a lot of effort to figure out with the non stock controller. I’m fine with the batt man over the cycle analysit too. Just looks like a headache.
Decent price in the bike. If you build them you know what goes into it and the time it takes to get it going nicely.
Compoundbike
100 W
A stupid question can it be driven with 20S (which is 84 Volt when the battery is fully loaded) ?
