New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

sysrq said:
There are a lot of benefits when using spur gear over helical output gear.
Click to expand...
..which are?

Energy efficiency difference is almost non-existent. The type of grease will probably have more impact. Noise wise, helical gears are more quiet. Helical gears have higher tooth strength and can handle load better. Spur gears are mostly used in racing gear boxes but that has other reasons.

OK, they're cheaper, easier to put in a design and require smaller bearings due to less axial load. But that's just a manufacturer's advantage.
 
In Europe, the maximum allowed electric supported speed of a pedelec is 25 km/h, but most of the DIY pedelec run "a bit" faster. On myself I also enjoy cycling more fast.
Unfortunately the police inspects more and more the "tuned" pedelecs and demands penalties. However they do not program anything - they do a test run if there is a suspicion.

A very kind feature would be, to enable/disable the 25 km/h limit with long pressing the up/down keys. Might this be implementable?
 
troebi said:
In Europe, the maximum allowed electric supported speed of a pedelec is 25 km/h, but most of the DIY pedelec run "a bit" faster. On myself I also enjoy cycling more fast.
Unfortunately the police inspects more and more the "tuned" pedelecs and demands penalties. However they do not program anything - they do a test run if there is a suspicion.

A very kind feature would be, to enable/disable the 25 km/h limit with long pressing the up/down keys. Might this be implementable?
Click to expand...
Sure it is. We call it, on our OpenSource firmware for KT motor controllers, the street and offroad modes.
 
John and Cecil said:
Police test riding ebikes to ensure they only go 15mph and not 20 mph. Our tax dollars at work :(
Click to expand...
I wish I live in a country like that.
In my country, Portugal, because police has no resources, everyone drives cars and passing the legal limit speed and talking at mobile phones -- it is very dangerous and there are always news of people that get dead by cars because of that :-(
Also I wish police could ensure that gas cars and motorcycle do no emit over limit of fumes amd noise.
 
AWD said:
eyebyesickle said:
AWD said:
"The 52v motor is fairly new, from what has been stated earlier here it is the same motor and controller "

Not really new as 52v has been available all along. Although the motor is the same the 52v controller is different than the 48v. Brass gear is recommended with the 52v.
Click to expand...

What is different about the 52v controller? It is the same hardware... just programming difference... you can use either the 36v or 48v style motor depending on the cadence you want...
Click to expand...

We were sent 52v controllers already pre-programmed from the factory and installed them for 52v conversions. The fact that need to be programmed differently makes them different does it not? The board is the same true.

On Monday our day off we did a nice long all day ride on our bikes, mine with a 52v TSDZ2 and another bike with an LB01. The LB01 was on a much heavier bike, 60+ lbs. vs. 45 lbs., and that seemed to tell the tale with battery consumption but power levels were about the same. Rode mine in eco all day as always and did the 4,000' plus in elevation over 25 miles on a 10ah battery. The other bike took 15ah. Neither of us made it all the way back to the parking lot with any juice left....We took our time with lot's of stops to gawk at the beauty of where we were but while underway we traveled at a decent rate of speed. The last river crossing, not shown, was a bit sketchy due to high water run off and the fact that it was freezing cold!

unnamed.jpg
Click to expand...
 
casainho said:
I wish I live in a country like that.
In my country, Portugal, because police has no resources, everyone drives cars and passing the legal limit speed and talking at mobile phones -- it is very dangerous and there are always news of people that get dead by cars because of that :-(
Also I wish police could ensure that gas cars and motorcycle do no emit over limit of fumes amd noise.
Click to expand...

Yeah, going after 4000lb cars doing 80+mph is much better than harassing 60lb bikes doing 20mph.

The people that talk /text on phones while driving is insane. We live in California where lane splitting in motorcycles is legal and I see it all the time. This one woman was texting and drifting while I was splitting next to her. We were doing about 30mph and I was banging on her window with my fist to get her to look up. I must have hit her window 30-40 times, it took her a full 5-10 seconds to actually look up from her phone :( They need to start incarcerating these people, fines don't work with these California BMW bimbos. I use to joke in my motorcycle group that we should all carry knockoff designed gucci handbags full of bricks and then dangle it next to them to get their attention and then throw it through their window.

This is exactly my point. We do not have enough resources for cops to be riding around testing bikes. If the motor is over the limit impound it, but don't just go araound wasting time riding them to see if they are marginally faster. We have much bigger problems, idiots are driving through crowds running people over and they are out test riding 750w bikes....

Do you like Portugal? I am in the process of getting citizenship in Italy however Portugal is my fall back country if I have any problems. If we have to wait for Italian citizenship I may apply for a visa to live in Portugal.
 
Casainho I'm also Portuguese. I leave in Lisbon. Please send me a PM in Facebook with your contact. Jose Azurara regards.
 
casainho said:
John and Cecil said:
Police test riding ebikes to ensure they only go 15mph and not 20 mph. Our tax dollars at work :(
Click to expand...
I wish I live in a country like that.
In my country, Portugal, because police has no resources, everyone drives cars and passing the legal limit speed and talking at mobile phones -- it is very dangerous and there are always news of people that get dead by cars because of that :-(
Also I wish police could ensure that gas cars and motorcycle do no emit over limit of fumes amd noise.
Click to expand...

A bit of an off-topic. Same here, loud scooters and motorcycles are allowed to show off all day long in parks and neighborhoods with narrow streets, but ebikes and pedelecs are hated and detested.
 
fantasy2 said:
sysrq said:
There are a lot of benefits when using spur gear over helical output gear.
Click to expand...
..which are?

Energy efficiency difference is almost non-existent. The type of grease will probably have more impact. Noise wise, helical gears are more quiet. Helical gears have higher tooth strength and can handle load better. Spur gears are mostly used in racing gear boxes but that has other reasons.

OK, they're cheaper, easier to put in a design and require smaller bearings due to less axial load. But that's just a manufacturer's advantage.
Click to expand...

That might be one of the reasons why TSDZ2 is a bit cheaper than Bafang since heavy-duty transmission casings and shafts have to be used with helical gears.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-straight-cut-gears/
Designers probably knew that the noise with spur output gear won't be too conspicuous in this case and with these RPM levels.
 
I implemented the configuration of wheel max speed, wheel size and units of Km/h or MPh:

[youtube]pQBaFCXBn1g[/youtube]

The KT LCD3 is running our own developed Flexible OpenSource firmware.
TongSheng TSDZ2 950W ebike mid drive motor controller is running our improved original firmware.
The motor pulls 18 amps and with my 48V charged, it pulls 950W at startup!! With a 52V battery, would pull over 1000W.

KT LCD3 showing the following data from TSDZ2 motor:
- battery voltage
- motor power in watts
- rider pedal power in watts
- motor current
- trip total Watts/hour
- pedal torque value
- pedal cadence
- bicycle wheel speed
- motor assist level
- brakes state
- battery state of charge

Read more here: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/kunteng_lcd3
 
I wonder if it is possible to ramp up the amps as the volts drop Casainho? That is another issue with the ebikes. Lots of power with a fresh battery but as it drains the power drops. Example: running a full charged 52v battery at 58v the amps could be 15 = 870w, when battery reaches 50v amps could ramp up to 17.5 = 875w, and when battery is low at 44v amps could be 20 = 880w. If this could be done it would be very useful, at least for me :)
 
John and Cecil said:
I wonder if it is possible to ramp up the amps as the volts drop Casainho? That is another issue with the ebikes. Lots of power with a fresh battery but as it drains the power drops. Example: running a full charged 52v battery at 58v the amps could be 15 = 870w, when battery reaches 50v amps could ramp up to 17.5 = 875w, and when battery is low at 44v amps could be 20 = 880w. If this could be done it would be very useful, at least for me :)
Click to expand...
I am thinking to do that next.

I am thinking to decide how that will be configured on the LCD. There are many options but I think most of them will be redundant/ irrelevant in practice. Like, I would like to have 2 different "assist levels": 1. adjust torque sensor; 2. adjust power
The idea is that in real time we could adjust both, maybe 1. would be as in original LCD, we just click up or down. 2. would be like power button + up/down buttons.

2. power could be adjusted in steps of 50 watts (50w = ~1A @ 48v) and would be shown on odometer LCD field when changing.
I think that controlling the max power can be important for that you say as also when you want to do a long ride and want to control the range.

My motor for development come with torque sensor not working :-( and while I get get resources to look at it, I will develop for throttle only. Since the motor controller seems to work ok, next step is to add the "ebike application" that will do things like read brake signal and stop the motor, send and received data from the LCD and control the motor depending on the data received from the LCD and from throttle and torque sensor. The "ebike application" will be mostly a "copy-paste" from the KT motor controller firmware!
 
Being able to just set the max power output in watts regardless of the battery voltage would be AWESOME. :) This way we can have full power when the battery is low and when the battery is full we don't have to worry about roasting the motor or controller.
 
John and Cecil said:
Being able to just set the max power output in watts regardless of the battery voltage would be AWESOME. :) This way we can have full power when the battery is low and when the battery is full we don't have to worry about roasting the motor or controller.
Click to expand...
I am planning to do like this:

Motor current controller already works and lowers the PWM duty_cycle value so the target_battery_current_max is never surpass.
This code runs every PWM cycle, 64000 times per second:
Code: 
  if (ui8_adc_battery_current > ui8_adc_target_battery_current_max) // battery max current, reduce duty_cycle
  {
    if (ui8_duty_cycle > 0)
    {
      ui8_duty_cycle--;
    }
  }

The battery voltage (ui16_adc_battery_voltage_filtered) is read at every 10 times per second and is even low pass filtered, this means it is a bit slow to see fast changes but this can be made more slow or fast as real time, if needed.

So, ui8_adc_target_battery_current_max = desired_power / ui16_adc_battery_voltage_filtered. This calc can happen also at every 10 times per second and so the output is the value for the ui8_adc_target_battery_current_max, that will be used on the motor controller as on the previous piece of code.
 
Can I ask if anyone knows if the 70rpm limit is a software or hardware limitation?
I'm just wondering if the open source firmware would be able to increase this limit at all.

I don't own this motor, but am very interested in it, but see the 70rpm limit as being very low for normal cycling.
 
dojrude said:
Can I ask if anyone knows if the 70rpm limit is a software or hardware limitation?
I'm just wondering if the open source firmware would be able to increase this limit at all.

I don't own this motor, but am very interested in it, but see the 70rpm limit as being very low for normal cycling.
Click to expand...

I believe it is limited by the software to an extent, but you can get them spinning faster on the hardware end by matching a 36v motor (different wind than 48v) with a 48v or 52v controller... I think standard RPM is more around 90... And you can get over 100rpm if you do as above...

I made a video a while back comparing a couple voltages on the same wind motor:

[youtube]q2efh_1ASds[/youtube]
 
eyebyesickle said:
dojrude said:
Can I ask if anyone knows if the 70rpm limit is a software or hardware limitation?
I'm just wondering if the open source firmware would be able to increase this limit at all.

I don't own this motor, but am very interested in it, but see the 70rpm limit as being very low for normal cycling.
Click to expand...

I believe it is limited by the software to an extent, but you can get them spinning faster on the hardware end by matching a 36v motor (different wind than 48v) with a 48v or 52v controller...
Click to expand...

But we know the controller is the same for all voltages, with only firmware changes ?
I think what you mean is,.. A higher battery voltage will increase the motor speed and hence the cadence, ..
.....but you will need to alter the firmware to allow that higher voltage .
 
Yes and no. I think higher voltage equals higher cadence, however there are 2 different motors. One is designed to spin at 90 rpms for a 36v battery and the other is designed to spin at 90 rpm for a 48v motor. If you match the 36v motor winding with a 48v controller it will spin much faster, and similarly if you match a 48v motor winding with a 36v controller it will spin really slowly. And since the controllers are the same, if you flash a controller that has a 36v motor and you crank it up to 56v it is going to spin much faster than if you use the 48v winding (or maybe it will burn up!).

I think I will test it out by seeing how fast I can rev out in 1st gear with 56v and then again with 46v. I believe the 90rpm is fairly accurate though because my speeds are registering about what the online calculator states that they should be with my gearing and tires running at 90 rpm cadence.
 
About the motor max RPM / pedals cadence
TSDZ2 36V motor: has 8 pole pairs and runs at 4000 RPMs.
Original firmware implements PWM frequency of 16KHz. Limitations of hardware in terms of max PWM frequency, like mosfet driver, mosfets, capacitors, max controller temperature, etc is unknown.

http://kellycontroller.com/faqs.php

What's BLDC high speed model and ultra high speed model differ from standard model?
32-bit microprocessor, higher PWM frequency.
Standard model: 16.6KHz, 40,000 eRPM.
High speed model: 33KHz, 70,000 eRPM.
Ultra high speed model: 100KHz, 100,000 eRPM.
eRPM=Mechanical RPM*Pole pairs.
It does generate more heat because of higher switching frequency.

When will High speed motor option or Ultra high speed motor option be necessary for the motor?
Please note high speed motor option is only useful for high speed motor.
eRPM=RPM*Pole Pairs.
The standard controller can support 40,000eRPM.
What is the criterion for high speed motor?
When eRPM of the motor is above 40,000, we can call it high speed motor for Kelly controller.
The high speed motor option doesn't mean it will push the motor to get a higher speed.
High speed motor option means that it is capable of catching the hall switching time of high speed motor.
If the motor is 40,000eRPM below, the standard controller can tackle the switching signal from hall sensor.
The motor will run properly.
That is why we don't add high speed motor option to the controller for low speed motor, which is not used to increase RPM.
The speed is the inherent characteristic of the motor. We can not change it.
Just like resistance is the inherent characteristic of the resistor.
Similarly Ultra high speed motor option is only useful for ultra high speed motor(70KeRPM-100KeRPM).
 
casainho said:
Sure it is. We call it, on our OpenSource firmware for KT motor controllers, the street and offroad modes.
Click to expand...

Can this both modes be implemented in the firmware for TSDZ2 controllers - that the street an the offroad mode may be swiched while cycling?
 
troebi said:
casainho said:
Sure it is. We call it, on our OpenSource firmware for KT motor controllers, the street and offroad modes.
Click to expand...

Can this both modes be implemented in the firmware for TSDZ2 controllers - that the street an the offroad mode may be swiched while cycling?
Click to expand...
I expect to implement on KT just at power up of the system, like we discussed together there.
For TSDZ2, it is early to say as it is not a priority right now.

You can always write on github issue lists, as a desired feature.
 
John and Cecil said:
Being able to just set the max power output in watts regardless of the battery voltage would be AWESOME. :) This way we can have full power when the battery is low and when the battery is full we don't have to worry about roasting the motor or controller.
Click to expand...

Done on the LCD side. We can quick configure max battery power usage by clicking on buttons onoff + up. Long click on onoff button to leave.

That value we see on LCD is sent to the motor controller. Now I just need to grab that value on motor controller side and set it.

[youtube]nugE97FbYrA[/youtube]
 
I guess I will have to buy that LCD :) Can you flash the motor firmware through the LCD or do I still need to fabricate a cable?
 
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