Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Dec 31 2017 3:54pm

With such a low melting temperature, you'd want to make sure that the heatsink temp doesn't exceed the metal's melting point. I know that CPU heatsink temps on my workstations get to 80c at times. Shoot, just sitting outside in direct sunlight in AZ might cause that stuff to melt. I'd think you'd want a low melt metal that melts somewhere north of boiling water.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by LewTwo » Jan 01 2018 2:13am

wturber wrote:
Dec 31 2017 3:54pm
With such a low melting temperature, you'd want to make sure that the heatsink temp doesn't exceed the metal's melting point. I know that CPU heatsink temps on my workstations get to 80c at times. Shoot, just sitting outside in direct sunlight in AZ might cause that stuff to melt. I'd think you'd want a low melt metal that melts somewhere north of boiling water.
During video encoding I have seen CPU temperatures spike all the way to 100 degrees celsius. They have some higher temperature metals available (281 fahrenheit - 138 celsius) which is still in the range of a kitchen stove or toaster oven. However I was thinking if it gets that hot then it is getting TOO hot. The idea is to transfer the heat to the bicycle frame which is the same frame you are gripping with your hands .... :cry:

You could also use the casting as a 'plug' to make a mold and do a proper casting in pot metal, lead, bronze, aluminum or something else but the real idea was an alternative for folks that might not be able to conveniently melt those higher temperature metals (there are people who live in dormitories, apartments, etc.).

FYI:
Having lived in Tucson, I have actually seen someone fry an egg on a dark metal plate sitting out it the sun. In Houston in the summer I used to always put a white terry towel over my parked motorcycle seat because if I did not I could not sit on it when I came back.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Jan 01 2018 12:26pm

LewTwo wrote:
Jan 01 2018 2:13am
During video encoding I have seen CPU temperatures spike all the way to 100 degrees celsius. They have some higher temperature metals available (281 fahrenheit - 138 celsius) which is still in the range of a kitchen stove or toaster oven. However I was thinking if it gets that hot then it is getting TOO hot. The idea is to transfer the heat to the bicycle frame which is the same frame you are gripping with your hands .... :cry:
By the time the heat gets to the frame, the temperature will have dropped and will continue to drop as it spreads into the frame. You just don't want the metal to melt at its contact point with the base of the Phaserunner. And I'd want a margin of safety as well.

All that said, I personally think that a decent aluminum heatsink with good airflow would make more sense in most situations.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by docnjoj » Jan 03 2018 11:34am

I'm watching this discussion carefully since I have removed the fan from my Wangdd22 booster and will mount it on the trike as soon as temperatures rise. I am hoping to avoid the fan as it is in a bad spot to mount the heatsink correctly against the frame.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by minimum » Jan 03 2018 1:56pm

Amec Thermalsol makes really "cool" flat heat pipes, originally intended for LED lights. They are really flat (from 1,2 up to 2,5mm), quite easily bendable and have ridiculously low Rth (thermal resistance).
Farnell used to carry these for decent price but they seem to have discontinued and now are selling for ridiculous sum what's left of stock.
Search of part number reveals quite many still offering at far more reasonable price.

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 03 2018 2:46pm

you guys are really overthinking this.
if you run the phaserunner to the point that it needs such a big heatsink, it will eventually fail from its inability to shed the heat to the outer heatsink over time... its a tiny 6fet controller.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by thunderstorm80 » Jan 04 2018 5:48am

MrDude_1 wrote:
Jan 03 2018 2:46pm
you guys are really overthinking this.
if you run the phaserunner to the point that it needs such a big heatsink, it will eventually fail from its inability to shed the heat to the outer heatsink over time... its a tiny 6fet controller.
The PR has a very good rollback mechanism, and as I understood from Justin, you can fully trust it to take care of itself with regard to high temperatures.
And you are right it's a small 6FET controller, but show me a 12FET controller which comes close enough to what the PR can do. :D

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 04 2018 9:17am

thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jan 04 2018 5:48am
MrDude_1 wrote:
Jan 03 2018 2:46pm
you guys are really overthinking this.
if you run the phaserunner to the point that it needs such a big heatsink, it will eventually fail from its inability to shed the heat to the outer heatsink over time... its a tiny 6fet controller.
The PR has a very good rollback mechanism, and as I understood from Justin, you can fully trust it to take care of itself with regard to high temperatures.
And you are right it's a small 6FET controller, but show me a 12FET controller which comes close enough to what the PR can do. :D
close enough would be something like the leyn modified controllers... http://www.lyen.com/

but yeah. I trusted mine to rollback as needed and had a massive block of aluminum with fins bolted to it. I did manage to burn it up. It took over a year, but it happened. The rollback isnt perfect, its limited by the info it gets from the sensor.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by macribs » Jan 04 2018 11:59pm

Seems there are various threads about heatsinks for the Phaserunners. wonder why there ain't a 12 FET version available? Or even bigger? Seems a lot of people love what the phaserunner does, but after seeing these threads it seems some would want a higher FET version of the phaserunner.

What kind of peak A are you guys pushing with the added heat sinks?

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 05 2018 12:44am

macribs wrote:
Jan 04 2018 11:59pm
Seems there are various threads about heatsinks for the Phaserunners. wonder why there ain't a 12 FET version available? Or even bigger? Seems a lot of people love what the phaserunner does, but after seeing these threads it seems some would want a higher FET version of the phaserunner.

What kind of peak A are you guys pushing with the added heat sinks?
because the controller its based on is 6fet... not a custom design. And the sellers target market are practical low/mid power ebike designs, not high power. they're looking at making a smaller one, not larger. If you want smaller, get a VESC or a FOCbox. if you want larger, right now adaptto has a range... phaserunner is right in-between.. its really really good at what it does, but if you ask too much of it, it will eventually pop.
Its best to just run it a bit conservatively and enjoy it... or get a larger controller. :?
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by rberger » Feb 06 2018 3:14am

Now that I can finally log the stats from the Cycle Analyst and Phaserunner, I see that even with my kludged on big heatsink, the Phaserunner is still peaking at around 70 degrees Celsius when going up long, big hills.

Is it worth trying to get the phaserunner to operate at lower temps or is this kind of peak ok? I only have these high temps when I'm going up a very long, very steep hill. Normally without big hills, the Phaserunner is operating at under 40 degrees C.

I have more of an issue with my crystallite H3540 with FerroFluid starting to overheat (100 to 110 degrees Celsius) near the top of the hill, but that's a different subject. I've been wanting to get baseline logs on the motor before I try adding a heatsink to it and then maybe a fan also as my panniers seem to reduce airflow too much to the motor.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by thunderstorm80 » Feb 06 2018 5:11am

rberger wrote:
Feb 06 2018 3:14am
Now that I can finally log the stats from the Cycle Analyst and Phaserunner, I see that even with my kludged on big heatsink, the Phaserunner is still peaking at around 70 degrees Celsius when going up long, big hills.

Is it worth trying to get the phaserunner to operate at lower temps or is this kind of peak ok? I only have these high temps when I'm going up a very long, very steep hill. Normally without big hills, the Phaserunner is operating at under 40 degrees C.

I have more of an issue with my crystallite H3540 with FerroFluid starting to overheat (100 to 110 degrees Celsius) near the top of the hill, but that's a different subject. I've been wanting to get baseline logs on the motor before I try adding a heatsink to it and then maybe a fan also as my panniers seem to reduce airflow too much to the motor.
H3540 will definitely challenge the PR because it requires high phase currents to operate. It's a fast wind motor.
This is why I matched my PR with H3525. The max speed is slower by 35% for a given voltage, so I work with around 80V. The current required by the H3525 to provide the same torque as the H3540 is about 35% less, so the power-loss and heat up (which are IR^2) are cut in half. The PR barely get warm, even with high torque output.
I suggest everyone to use 6FET controller only with slower wind motors, and go for high battery voltage to compensate for the lower max speed. In this way you can maximize the PR's specific power.
In general, I think slow wind motors are always the best option in terms of controller IR losses, wiring IR losses, and you get the bonus that you can still squeeze the max 96A peak phase current for short times - and with a H3525 that is one hell of acceleration (or deceleration for regen).

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by thunderstorm80 » Feb 06 2018 5:12am

thunderstorm80 wrote:
Feb 06 2018 5:11am
rberger wrote:
Feb 06 2018 3:14am
Now that I can finally log the stats from the Cycle Analyst and Phaserunner, I see that even with my kludged on big heatsink, the Phaserunner is still peaking at around 70 degrees Celsius when going up long, big hills.

Is it worth trying to get the phaserunner to operate at lower temps or is this kind of peak ok? I only have these high temps when I'm going up a very long, very steep hill. Normally without big hills, the Phaserunner is operating at under 40 degrees C.

I have more of an issue with my crystallite H3540 with FerroFluid starting to overheat (100 to 110 degrees Celsius) near the top of the hill, but that's a different subject. I've been wanting to get baseline logs on the motor before I try adding a heatsink to it and then maybe a fan also as my panniers seem to reduce airflow too much to the motor.
H3540 will definitely challenge the PR because it requires high phase currents to operate. It's a fast wind motor.
This is why I matched my PR with H3525. The max speed is slower by 35% for a given voltage, so I work with around 80V. The current required by the H3525 to provide the same torque as the H3540 is about 35% less, so the power-loss and heat up (which are IR^2) are cut in half. The PR barely get warm, even with high torque output.
I suggest everyone to use 6FET controller only with slower wind motors, and go for high battery voltage to compensate for the lower max speed. In this way you can maximize the PR's specific power.
In general, I think slow wind motors are always the best option in terms of controller IR losses, wiring IR losses, and you get the bonus that you can still squeeze the max 96A peak phase current for short times (like up to several seconds for a slow wind motor!) - and with a H3525 that is one hell of acceleration (or deceleration for regen).

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by thunderstorm80 » Jun 21 2018 8:57am

I finally came up with a brillinat yet simple coolding method.
It involves cooling the PR (Phaserunner) using simple water evaporative cooling, by using wrapped wet cloth. You can see some pictures at the bottom of this message.
First, the PR is not directly secured to the top-tube but has about 1cm gap, supported by two thick rubbers, so there is a an air flow also on the most important part - the built in metal heat-sink.
I use 2 cable ties to fasten and secure the cloth (regular cleaning cloth cut to size) so that it overlaps fully and tightly streched so it has the best contact with the heatsink and the rest of the body.
I tested this on a bike with the fast-wind GrinHub (6T).
If you rely mostly on the motor power to ascend uphils, then that hub needs 96A quite often, and I found that with the regular air cooling the hub and the PR would reach the thermal rollback around the same time.
Now, there is absolutely no rollback at all and the PR keeps giving those max 96A. (Now only the motor is the temperature rollback bottleneck)
I know it delivers 96A continuously not just from the torque sensation but also because it started to melt the stock 3-andersons, and so I replaced those with the XT60 connectors.
This is so simple, yet light and brilliant solution.
I plan to do a logged test-ride with this cloth, and without, and have a more precise measurement by how much the heat transfer has increased.
What is your opinion about this?
This looks improvised, and it is, but it's a fact that phase-change heat-transfer is the most efficient cooling method. (A/C, refrigerator use also phase change heat transfer but in a much more complex manner)
If this were made into a turn-key product, that is: An CNC'ed aluminium body which is flat on the one side to match the PR's 4 threaded holes and rounded on the other side with rubber spacers so it can sit snug against the frame, and a matching cloth/fiber to be installed which you can use to spray with water from your water-bottle when some cooling is needed. Would you want one?
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Jun 24 2018 12:14am

thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:57am
What is your opinion about this?
Something I'd resort to if other options ... like a wind-facing heat sink augmented with a thermostatically controlled fan ... wouldn't work. If you consider the water you need to carry, I'm not sure you could call this light weight.
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:57am
This looks improvised, and it is, but it's a fact that phase-change heat-transfer is the most efficient cooling method. (A/C, refrigerator use also phase change heat transfer but in a much more complex manner)
A/C consumes a lot of energy AND relies on a radiators and fans for the actual heat exchange.
Cars use a radiator and fan and no phase change to cool extremely hot engines. In fact, the system is pressurized in order to prevent or reduce phase change and hence avoid the need for frequent replenishment of water.

I agree that water phase change is a very efficient way to cool things. But it requires a regular supply of water and if that water isn't distilled, presents issues of corrosion and scale build-up over time. I'd probably value a system that I wouldn't have to do much to maintain and use over fundamental efficiency.
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:57am
If this were made into a turn-key product, that is: An CNC'ed aluminium body which is flat on the one side to match the PR's 4 threaded holes and rounded on the other side with rubber spacers so it can sit snug against the frame, and a matching cloth/fiber to be installed which you can use to spray with water from your water-bottle when some cooling is needed. Would you want one?
Probably not. As I said before, I'd first try to reverse mount the Phaserunner to my seat or down tube with a forward facing heat sink to take advantage of the natural breeze created by riding the bike. I'd add a thermostatically controlled fan to help when the breeze is reduced at lower speeds like when climbing hills. If that didn't work, I might consider your evap system. But more likely, I'd consider using a different controller first.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by thunderstorm80 » Jun 24 2018 7:26am

wturber wrote:
Jun 24 2018 12:14am
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:57am
What is your opinion about this?
Something I'd resort to if other options ... like a wind-facing heat sink augmented with a thermostatically controlled fan ... wouldn't work. If you consider the water you need to carry, I'm not sure you could call this light weight.
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:57am
This looks improvised, and it is, but it's a fact that phase-change heat-transfer is the most efficient cooling method. (A/C, refrigerator use also phase change heat transfer but in a much more complex manner)
A/C consumes a lot of energy AND relies on a radiators and fans for the actual heat exchange.
Cars use a radiator and fan and no phase change to cool extremely hot engines. In fact, the system is pressurized in order to prevent or reduce phase change and hence avoid the need for frequent replenishment of water.

I agree that water phase change is a very efficient way to cool things. But it requires a regular supply of water and if that water isn't distilled, presents issues of corrosion and scale build-up over time. I'd probably value a system that I wouldn't have to do much to maintain and use over fundamental efficiency.
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:57am
If this were made into a turn-key product, that is: An CNC'ed aluminium body which is flat on the one side to match the PR's 4 threaded holes and rounded on the other side with rubber spacers so it can sit snug against the frame, and a matching cloth/fiber to be installed which you can use to spray with water from your water-bottle when some cooling is needed. Would you want one?
Probably not. As I said before, I'd first try to reverse mount the Phaserunner to my seat or down tube with a forward facing heat sink to take advantage of the natural breeze created by riding the bike. I'd add a thermostatically controlled fan to help when the breeze is reduced at lower speeds like when climbing hills. If that didn't work, I might consider your evap system. But more likely, I'd consider using a different controller first.
First, thanks for commenting on this.
About the comparison with A/C's - Yes, I know A/C's consume ALOT of power because they have to spend energy in the compression (condension) phase. Here, the energy is "free" since we just do the evaporation phase.
Yes, you need to get water for that, but the amount of water needed is quite minuscule. A single splash which will saturate the fabric, consume few cc's of water, and it lasts for between 10minutes to 20minutes, depends on the conditions. You dehydrate much faster than that even on comfortable climate.
Remember that liquid water takes a HUGE amount of energy to evaporate. This is why sweating is so effective.
Regarding adding fan/heatsinks - all will work, but they defeat the point of having such a small & light controller.
I agree that the best approach would have been replacing the controller to a bigger 12FET one, but you tell me where to find a 12FET controller which is:
1. Programmable (in the sense of plug&play, without the need to possess hacking skills)
2. Sinusoidal
3. Has excellent tech support behind it and nothing is disclosed from the user
4. Small and compact
5. Has the same proportional phase-current handling to weight
6. Is not hard-limited to just 40A of battery current

Please (and I am serious about it!) :)

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by ferret » Jun 24 2018 8:26am

thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 24 2018 7:26am

Remember that liquid water takes a HUGE amount of energy to evaporate. This is why sweating is so effective.

...

I agree that the best approach would have been replacing the controller to a bigger 12FET one, but you tell me where to find a 12FET controller which is:
1. Programmable (in the sense of plug&play, without the need to possess hacking skills)
2. Sinusoidal
3. Has excellent tech support behind it and nothing is disclosed from the user
4. Small and compact
5. Has the same proportional phase-current handling to weight
6. Is not hard-limited to just 40A of battery current

Please (and I am serious about it!) :)
HUGE?
IIRC 1 CC of water will only absorb less than 1 Wh of heat.
Assuming that the weather is not very humid, if it is, evaporative cooling, sweating, is not effective.
I believe that the BAC2000 controller shares most of it hardware with the Phaserunner but has 12 FETS and is rated to 100A.
I don't know if it "plug and play"

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... c2000.html

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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Jun 25 2018 12:28am

thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 24 2018 7:26am

First, thanks for commenting on this. Here, the energy is "free" since we just do the evaporation phase.
Yes, you need to get water for that, but the amount of water needed is quite minuscule. A single splash which will saturate the fabric, consume few cc's of water, and it lasts for between 10minutes to 20minutes, depends on the conditions. You dehydrate much faster than that even on comfortable climate.
So you need to either anticipate when to splash or you need to keep it wet all the time. One requires carrying more water. The other is less convenient - especially if you want to avoid mineral deposits and hence carry distilled water.
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 24 2018 7:26am
Remember that liquid water takes a HUGE amount of energy to evaporate. This is why sweating is so effective.
Yes. One cc will absorb about .674 watt/hrs of energy.
thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jun 24 2018 7:26am
Regarding adding fan/heatsinks - all will work, but they defeat the point of having such a small & light controller.

And what does your proposed CNC device and water do if not add mass and size? A device for reverse mounting the PhaseRunner so that it's heat sink would face a the bike's natural breeze wouldn't be large or weigh much. Adding an aluminum heatsink on to of that wouldn't add much more. Electric fans aren't particularly heavy or large. And if you are willing to CNC something custom, weight and size could be further optimized.

You list a number of features of the PhaseRunner. small size is just one of many features. If all of those features are important and also rare, then I wouldn't consider reverse mounting and possibly adding a heatsink and fan to be much of a compromise. I'm having a hard time imagining the ebike that uses 90A (that's around 5000 watts at 52v) continuous where a few ounces of aluminum and fan is going to make a difference that matters. My ebike only runs about 1000 watts and I don't worry about a few ounces here or there with it.

Every well engineered device is the result of careful compromise. It seems to me that Grin compromised very high constant current for size and weight. But the beauty of the design is that you might be able to get that very high constant current if you are willing to put up with a small amount of additional size and weight.

But I'm the last person to tell you not to use your water scheme. If you like it and it works for your purposes, then have at it. Remember, I'm the fellow running a cheap Chinese boost converter. But for me, it seems inconvenient. It would be low on my list of options to try. Its the kind of thing I'd think seriously about for use in a racing situation, but not in a commuting, touring or sports riding situation.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jun 25 2018 11:15am

I just want to point out that even if you put it in a bucket of room temp water, and kept the water at that temp, you EVENTUALLY will burn up the phase runner if you keep pulling maximum phase current from it.

The thermal path from the mosfet die to the mosfet package can only support so much heat transfer. The aluminum block it is bolted to can also only support so much heat transfer.
If you run this sustained at maximum power, even with the external aluminum block perfectly cooled, it will eventually overheat. You may even increase the chance of this if you keep the block at a low temp but hold max current sustained for a long period of time... the temp sensor reads the block, not the die.
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Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Jun 25 2018 2:31pm

If I understood the documentation right, the PhaseRunner can (with the proper cooling) sustain 70A continuously. The 96A level is peak, not continuous even with appropriate cooling.
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Joined: Jul 24 2011 5:42am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by cwah » Sep 07 2018 7:30pm

I covered mine with copper as it is the best material for heat transmission:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kj9ysypbkk5p9 ... 4.jpg?dl=0
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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