New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 26 2018 7:44pm

Yes, abrupt changes are not good for stress on the motor and damage to the nylon gear. Getting the wheel stuck in the mud is another. This is exactly why I am preaching that these motors NEED to be power restricted at lower rpms.

Example #1 - I allow a neighbor to ride my ebike. He is clamped on the throttle doing 15mph, then suddenly he decides to stop for the ice cream man and he does not let go of the throttle. As the bike slows the motor will still be maxed out and pushing 16 amps. From down the street I watch smoke start pouring out of my motor and I wave bye bye to my blue gear, or worse my controller and or motor. I go online and I order new parts.

Example number 2 - same as #1 but my motor is power restricted to (i will use cadence numbers but the motor should be power restricted according to engine rpm and not cadence rpm due to the throttle) 0-10rpm 50w, 10-20 150w, 20-30 250w, 30-40 350w, 40-50 450w, 50-60 550w, 60-70 650, 70+ 750w. This time when the moron hits the brakes as the rpms reduce so does the power, and when he comes to a stop motor output is negligible. I run up to him and push him off my bike, then ride it home and thank the heavens I reprogrammed the motor output.

These examples would be the same for getting stuck in mud, trying to climb a hill to steep, crashing and getting the wheel stuck or locked up, etc, etc. The trade off is you would have to pedal initially to get up to 50 cadence before you get into the meat of the power, but that is just for takeoffs under say 5 mph.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 26 2018 8:41pm

John, as we have said , each of us wants different set ups for their motor, hence the good work being done by casainho on this thread.
Personally, for my use, i NEED maximum torque from a stop situation, and i do not believe that will stress the gears any more than max torque at mid rpm speed...providing it is not for a stall situation , only a start off.
For your example, to "idiot proof" the set up, the answer is already supplied as standard.....
.....you just have to install the brake levers with cut off switches.!
Again, the real solution to all our preferences is to have a working software set up that operates via the display to change the various parameters.
I am becoming increasingly suspicious if the setting changes on the standard vlcd5 system, actuall alter anything.
I see no difference in amp draw on any of the different setting levels ?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dojrude » Jun 26 2018 10:07pm

Is anyone able to at least confirm the following quote, as I'm sure i've read that the 48v model doesn't work with a fully charged 52v battery, so how is the 52v overdrive setting achieved?
dojrude wrote:
Jun 25 2018 9:53pm
Looking at the overdrive option, does this mean the following;

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 36v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
48v unit, 48v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 26 2018 10:59pm

How does the brake switches help when you are riding and your tire gets stuck in the mud and locks up? Or when your friend borrows the bike and switches into the wrong gear (GASP!). Or when you think you can make it up a steep hill and cannot. That example was only one of hundreds. The point is if something unexpected happens and the wheel stops suddenly then your motor is toast, and that is a design flaw.

I am not asking casainho or anyone else to do anything, nor did I ask anyone. The manufacturer should be doing something about it. People are breaking their motors with very little use, some are so worried that they are stockpiling parts suspecting a future breakage. There is a difference between something meant for racing and something meant for basic transportation. This is advertised as a basic transportation motor and it has a design flaw being that it can break itself too easily for all too common occurrences.

To satisfy the small percentage of people that must have full power when going 0-4mph is ridiculous when it results in an even larger number of regular users hosing their motors in circumstances that are way to easy and common to reproduce.

Or perhaps I am mistaken and this IS advertised as a racing motor?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 26 2018 11:30pm

Whilst i doubt anyone is actually wanting to "Race" with this set up, its is obvious that many are fitting them to mountain, trail, and various off-road capable bikes for recreational and fun use
Further, in many places (my own included) a motor of more than 250w rating, or a throttle control, is not allowed for "basic public transportation",...it is illegal on public roadways,..So effectively restricting us to off road use..trails, bush, mud, rocks , etc
But that is our thing anyway, and these mid motors are well suited to that use !
I realise many just want a "commuter" assisted bike, and that is fine also, .We just need to have the ability to adjust the various settings to suit our preferred use.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 26 2018 11:50pm

dojrude wrote:
Jun 26 2018 10:07pm
Is anyone able to at least confirm the following quote, as I'm sure i've read that the 48v model doesn't work with a fully charged 52v battery, so how is the 52v overdrive setting achieved?
dojrude wrote:
Jun 25 2018 9:53pm
Looking at the overdrive option, does this mean the following;

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 36v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
48v unit, 48v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive
Read back a few pages..
Remember a 48v (13s) battery can be 55v fully charrged
And a "standard" 48v setting on the controller will cut out power at voltages above 56-56.5v
A 52v (14 s) battery will charge up to 59v so will not work on a standard set 48v controller when fully charged.
( But could work when part charged !)
For maximum benefit of the full charge capacity of a 52 v battery, you will need to reset the controller voltage limits higher
In other words, the only advantage that a 52v battery on a 48v controller is going to give you over a 48v battery, is a short period of 8% more power, and a longer period at higher voltages , which means higher cadence potential for longer
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jun 26 2018 11:51pm

dojrude wrote:
Jun 26 2018 10:07pm
Is anyone able to at least confirm the following quote, as I'm sure i've read that the 48v model doesn't work with a fully charged 52v battery, so how is the 52v overdrive setting achieved?
dojrude wrote:
Jun 25 2018 9:53pm
Looking at the overdrive option, does this mean the following;

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 36v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
48v unit, 48v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive
Here you go - keep in mind depending who is making an overdrive motor - the controller programming/setting may not be stock, allowing you to reach cadence past a certain point :wink:

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
36v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by angusinalberta » Jun 27 2018 1:25am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 26 2018 10:59pm
<snip>
The point is if something unexpected happens and the wheel stops suddenly then your motor is toast, and that is a design flaw.
<snip>
The manufacturer should be doing something about it. People are breaking their motors with very little use, some are so worried that they are stockpiling parts suspecting a future breakage.
<snip>
If a motorboat hits a log a shear pin snaps. It's a deliberate weak link that protects the motor. It's an easy fix.

Similarly when your wheel unexpectedly locks up your motor isn't toast. The blue gear is equivalent to a shear pin and is easy and inexpensive to replace. It's a feature, not a bug. Considering your type of riding it might be wise to keep a spare on hand.

Some people have replaced their plastic gear with a brass one. I wonder if it still the weak link or does something else now break?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dojrude » Jun 27 2018 1:32am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 26 2018 11:51pm

Here you go - keep in mind depending who is making an overdrive motor - the controller programming/setting may not be stock, allowing you to reach cadence past a certain point :wink:

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
36v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive
Thanks, but now I'm even more confused. So the 52v overdrive is actually a 36v motor, not a 48v.
I thought max cadence was determined by the max RPM of the motor and the number of teeth of the reduction gearing - which I'm sure was worked out a few pages back to be around 100. How does programming get around that?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jun 27 2018 6:20am

guys just a question on over volting.
Thinking of using a voltage booster to 60v.
So if I charge the hex values to say 15s on my 36v motor does that mean the battery display will work properly on the vlcd5 ?
Btw this is what I had in mind.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 27 2018 7:16am

dojrude wrote:
Jun 27 2018 1:32am
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 26 2018 11:51pm

Here you go - keep in mind depending who is making an overdrive motor - the controller programming/setting may not be stock, allowing you to reach cadence past a certain point :wink:

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
36v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive
Thanks, but now I'm even more confused. So the 52v overdrive is actually a 36v motor, not a 48v.
I thought max cadence was determined by the max RPM of the motor and the number of teeth of the reduction gearing - which I'm sure was worked out a few pages back to be around 100. How does programming get around that?
Maximum Cadence (or motor rpm) is solely determined by the voltage.
But there are 36v and 48 v motors specificly wound to both give 90 rpm cadence as standard
For example, a 48v motor will run 90rpm cadence if the battery voltage is exactly 48v (13s nominal)
That same motor, battery, and settings will run 98rpm if the battery voltage is 52 v (fully charged)
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » Jun 27 2018 8:14am

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 26 2018 8:41pm
John, as we have said , each of us wants different set ups for their motor, hence the good work being done by casainho on this thread.
Personally, for my use, i NEED maximum torque from a stop situation, and i do not believe that will stress the gears any more than max torque at mid rpm speed...providing it is not for a stall situation , only a start off.
Yes,.. torque is the real killer of parts but its NOT the same at all speeds as far as the blue gear is concerned.

I suspect that in static tests the blue gear can handle the all rated torque nicely even when stationary. Its the torque plus any shock loading that breaks teeth.

Shock loading is highly affected by rpm because at low rpm the shock is applied to a very few teeth or even just one. At high rpm the same shock load is spread over many teeth.

Also electric motors are strange in that they don't complain much and are easy to abuse. They just silently try to consume more amps until they eat themselves. You can place an R/C type wattmeter inline with the motor and ride around, you will may be surprised at the odd times the motor sees max load. A gas motor provides all kinds of cues with sound and vibration. I see this all the time with R/C airplanes. A guy can choose the wrong prop pitch and either draw too little or too much from the motor and the result is low power with no discernible difference in sound or feel except one way seriously abuses the motor and battery. I think a visual readout of watts being used would go a long way towards helping us recognize high load conditions.

On bicycles, we just assume that as long as we aren't mashing on the pedals that nothing is stressed. On trails I find it hard to draw many amps even when riding aggressively, By contrast, riding on the road with wind resistance and high gearing I max out amps with surprisingly little human input and am surprised how battery I use. With actual watts used being displayed you can see this happening

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by shaddi » Jun 27 2018 8:44am

just bought an LCD3 for coding purposes .. :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jun 27 2018 5:31pm

So...waaaaay back in the thread I was testing the XH18 and found it didn't like the 52v, it was glitching.

Well, the other day I got in some fresh 36v xh18, and one unit came damaged (the xh18 screen hit the TSDZ2 chain ring in shipping....). It was glitching just like the xh18 did when I hooked it up to 52v, and I thought that was odd.

SO, it turns out, the initial xh18 I tested with was faulty, and I tried the 52v again with the xh18, and with the 8 to 6 pin with throttle splitter, and it all worked fine! Yaaaay, so 52v working fine with XH18 display, and even throttle is confirmed.

FYI for anyone who prefers the xh18 like me.

Also, the VLCD-6 (smaller simple display) is ok, but it is KPH only. No mph option for the readout.

I can't wait until the new firmware is complete... I have a batch of the kLCD3 coming to wire up and play with! I've got a few 6 pin connectors I've saved to make them nice and clean plug n play...

Oooh this motor really turned out over this past year. Gotta love it

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 27 2018 5:45pm

hobbyvac wrote:
Jun 27 2018 8:14am
I suspect that in static tests the blue gear can handle the all rated torque nicely even when stationary. Its the torque plus any shock loading that breaks teeth. .....
....
I think a visual readout of watts being used would go a long way towards helping us recognize high load conditions.
. With actual watts used being displayed you can see this happening
I agree , Watts display (or even Amps) should be standard on these low powered motors..together with battery voltage, remaining capacity etc...All of this would be simple for a manufacturer (CA3 springs to mind :wink: )

With the Blue gear,... one the other TSDZ2 thread, AWD has just posted information stating there is a design issue with that gear such that its mesh with the mating gear is incorrest..causing some of the problems...and that a redesigned gear is somewhere in the supply chain !! :shock:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=94881&p=1390826#p1390826
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 28 2018 12:25am

angusinalberta wrote:
Jun 27 2018 1:25am
Some people have replaced their plastic gear with a brass one. I wonder if it still the weak link or does something else now break?
My blue gear just worked for the first 20kms / first day. Now with with brass gear, more then 1 month later (for commuting and also montain biking in the forest) and all days using the motor, it is perfect.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Chalo » Jun 28 2018 1:02am

casainho wrote:
Jun 28 2018 12:25am
My blue gear just worked for the first 20kms / first day. Now with with brass gear, more then 1 month later (for commuting and also montain biking in the forest) and all days using the motor, it is perfect.
This is a deep thread and I'm not familiar with your system, so please pardon me if I'm asking something you have answered before: Which version of the TSDZ2 are you using (how many volts and watts)? Are you using it at its rated power?

It's common for mechanical systems to be designed so that something cheap/easy/non-critical fails before forces become large enough to break a part that's expensive, difficult to repair, or critical to safety.

A single small brass or bronze gear is not so expensive as to use a much weaker plastic version for cost reasons alone. I expect there is an engineering purpose behind it. A month isn't very long to prove reliability, or to discover why that gear was originally made from plastic.

So I guess my follow up question to whomever is following this thread would be, has anyone switched to the brass gear and suffered related problems afterwards?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 28 2018 1:07am

Chalo wrote:
Jun 28 2018 1:02am
casainho wrote:
Jun 28 2018 12:25am
My blue gear just worked for the first 20kms / first day. Now with with brass gear, more then 1 month later (for commuting and also montain biking in the forest) and all days using the motor, it is perfect.
This is a deep thread and I'm not familiar with your system, so please pardon me if I'm asking something you have answered before: Which version of the TSDZ2 are you using (how many volts and watts)? Are you using it at its rated power?

It's common for mechanical systems to be designed so that something cheap/easy/non-critical fails before forces become large enough to break a part that's expensive, difficult to repair, or critical to safety.

A single small brass or bronze gear is not so expensive as to use a much weaker plastic version for cost reasons alone. I expect there is an engineering purpose behind it. A month isn't very long to prove reliability, or to discover why that gear was originally made from plastic.

So I guess my follow up question to whomever is following this thread would be, has anyone switched to the brass gear and suffered related problems afterwards?
48V motor with a 48V battery and running at max amps possible/assist level.

But there is a difference also, after the fail o blue gear, I installed the brake sensors.

But every one recommends the brass gear when the blue gear fails.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kortina » Jun 28 2018 7:05am

I am a few weeks into my TSDZ2 and loving it.

I have installed the 52v motor to a 2008 Dual Suspension bike, using a 52v battery.
(Motor kit from ebird @ AliExpress, Battery from LunaMate AU)

After 90km, the bike is still running sweet, about to install a pair of lights and relay using the 6v feed from the wiring loom to trigger the relay. I have purchased a cheap set of 12-80v 'motorbike' fog lights from Aliexpress.

As the LCD3 firmware matures I will get the screen and re-flash my setup (just to tinker).
I would be keen to see a 'offroad' feature, where the LCD3 would hold 2 lots of settings.
EG:
Turn on
Max Speed = 25km/h
Max Power 250w*

Turn on (while holding a button)
Max Speed = 37km/h
Max Power 750w

This would ensure that by default the bike would be complaint, but when you want to ride 'offroad' you can use the alternate mapping.

Is this something that could be achieved with the alternate firmware/LCD3 ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 28 2018 7:15am

kortina wrote:
Jun 28 2018 7:05am
I am a few weeks into my TSDZ2 and loving it.

I have installed the 52v motor to a 2008 Dual Suspension bike, using a 52v battery.
(Motor kit from ebird @ AliExpress, Battery from LunaMate AU)

After 90km, the bike is still running sweet, about to install a pair of lights and relay using the 6v feed from the wiring loom to trigger the relay. I have purchased a cheap set of 12-80v 'motorbike' fog lights from Aliexpress.

As the LCD3 firmware matures I will get the screen and re-flash my setup (just to tinker).
I would be keen to see a 'offroad' feature, where the LCD3 would hold 2 lots of settings.
EG:
Turn on
Max Speed = 25km/h
Max Power 250w*

Turn on (while holding a button)
Max Speed = 37km/h
Max Power 750w

This would ensure that by default the bike would be complaint, but when you want to ride 'offroad' you can use the alternate mapping.

Is this something that could be achieved with the alternate firmware/LCD3 ?
We call it "offroad mode" on KT motor controllers OpenSource firmware and you can enable it when riding for instance on montain tracks, etc.

That must be implemented on firmware, not just on LCD3. TSDZ2 firmware do not support this feature.

I wish more developers can join the testing and development of firmware so this feature can be implemented.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 28 2018 9:21am

angusinalberta wrote:
Jun 27 2018 1:25am

If a motorboat hits a log a shear pin snaps. It's a deliberate weak link that protects the motor. It's an easy fix.

Similarly when your wheel unexpectedly locks up your motor isn't toast. The blue gear is equivalent to a shear pin and is easy and inexpensive to replace. It's a feature, not a bug. Considering your type of riding it might be wise to keep a spare on hand.

Some people have replaced their plastic gear with a brass one. I wonder if it still the weak link or does something else now break?
I understand that very well. We are waiting to see what issues arise from the brass gear replacement. So far the issues are more noise and more maintenance. Metal on metal gears require substantially more lubrication. There will undoubtedly be much increased wear on the main motor gear that contacts the brass gear. Another issue could be personal injury due to the "shear pin" being removed.

HOWEVER, I consider it a defect because a motor controller can be programmed to limit power at certain rpms. Why would you want the motor to put out 100% power at 1 rpm? You are just looking for trouble with something like that.

Generally the motor should be built to work for the masses without the risk of failure from commonplace events, and if people don't care about reliability or breakage then they should remove the "governor". But you don't build a motor without a governor and then expect the masses to build one for it themselves...

There is a reason why this motor is not sold in the USA by any decent firm. They do not want to be sued. How many people would have returned this motor if it were not for dealing with China directly and shipping it back there. I have seen at least a dozen people question what to do because shipping back to China is pretty much impossible or not feasible. And if they don't send it back filing a small claims case against them would be impossible.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jun 28 2018 10:26am

"AWD has just posted information stating there is a design issue with that gear such that its mesh with the mating gear is incorrest"

Not incorrect as much as insufficient to allow for good engagement. The new blue gear is part of a revamp of the system and could or could not be retrofittable.

After two rides my blue gear had a small chip flake off and the grinding noise it made was immediately concerning as at that time the system was new to me. I replaced it with the brass gear upon recommendation of the seller, lubed with the red and tacky grease, and it has been problem free, in regards to the gear in question at least, ever since over using it on 700+ miles of mainly rough single track riding with lot's of hill climbing which theoretically produces the largest amount of torque and stress on the reduction drive.

Perhaps you have to see a TSDZ2 opened up in front of you, or have ridden to the extreme, to understand that the blue gear itself is not necessary to be fail safe mechanism it perhaps was designed to be. Replacing it with the brass gear only allows one to make the potential failure of the blue gear to be put to bed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 28 2018 5:22pm

Detail tech question..
Does the brass gear have exactly the same number tooth count (36 ?) as the blue plastic gear ??
Edit:- answered my own question by counting teeth on a photo...36T on both.
8) :? They could have improved the gear mesh by adding another tooth ! :wink:
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pawepie » Jun 28 2018 6:26pm

casainho wrote:
Jun 26 2018 4:00am
pawepie wrote:
Jun 22 2018 1:21pm
Thank you Casainho! Switching the wires at your suggestion works *perfectly*! The LCD3 is a *huge* upgrade with all the information. Cleaner and tidier setup...this motor is a dream :)

It's so cool to have motor watts *and* calculated human power at the same time. Love it!
Thanks for the feedback!!

See that previous LCD3 firmware was showing wheel speed to a max of 25.5km/h but I corrected that on the most recent code on master branch.
I compiled and flashed the latest code from the master branch and now the speed limit setting works for some reason, but displaying only a max of 25.5km/h. I will see if I can find the error in the code...otherwise, is it possible to you to commit your recent changes to github? latest file seems to be the v3 firmware, and not any code :( I'm unable to find how to uncode this limit yet.

*so excited to be able to edit and flash this code again after problems with the toolchain!*
I will write a very easy step-by-step guide for those like me new to linux (once I get my second PC fixed)
Last edited by pawepie on Jun 28 2018 8:30pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbalat   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 538
Joined: Nov 10 2012 11:50pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jun 28 2018 6:41pm

Do we really have to install Linux ? No other way to flash using a PC surely....

Just ordered all my gear so getting excited :)
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