New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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pawepie   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pawepie » Jun 28 2018 6:56pm

jbalat wrote:
Jun 28 2018 6:41pm
Do we really have to install Linux ? No other way to flash using a PC surely....

Just ordered all my gear so getting excited :)
you can flash on a PC...I just wanted to be able to compile and had problems doing it on my PC and it was easier to figure out the full toolchain in Linux.

You can use the STlinkV2 and this PC software to flash:
http://www.st.com/en/development-tools/stvd-stm8.html

make sure to flash the option bytes on the LCD3 if you want it to work for you before flashing the latest firmware (and TSDZ2 improved original firmware)

hobbyvac   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » Jun 28 2018 8:34pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 28 2018 5:22pm
Detail tech question..
Does the brass gear have exactly the same number tooth count (36 ?) as the blue plastic gear ??
Edit:- answered my own question by counting teeth on a photo...36T on both.
8) :? They could have improved the gear mesh by adding another tooth ! :wink:
Contrary to logic it is possible to improve the tooth engagement without changing tooth count or shaft centers if inadequate engagement depth really is the problem. Gear designers frequently change the tooth profile to shrink or grow a gear diameter to accommodate shaft spacing. Think of a six speed motorcycle transmission where all those ratios share the same shaft spacing and designers can fine tune ratios by having one gear of a pair gain or lose a tooth.

This means anyone can have custom gears designed to tighten the mesh and so can Tongsheng. That makes me think its either a problem with varying plastic shrinkage or poor tolerance control on shaft spacing.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 28 2018 11:38pm

pawepie wrote:
Jun 28 2018 6:26pm
otherwise, is it possible to you to commit your recent changes to github? latest file seems to be the v3 firmware, and not any code :( I'm unable to find how to uncode this limit yet.
I forgot to push/upload. Done now.

25.5km/m max because I used a 8 bits variable that can holds max of 255 (value is km/h * 10) -- this bug was easy to spot :-)
Just moved to a 16 bits variable and will hold the max 99.9km/h the LCD can show.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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stancecoke   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by stancecoke » Jun 29 2018 5:46am

@casainho: your project gets some attention in the german forum now... :D

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index ... st-1020823
jbalat wrote:
Jun 28 2018 6:41pm
Do we really have to install Linux ? No other way to flash using a PC surely....
pawepie wrote:
Jun 28 2018 6:26pm
I will write a very easy step-by-step guide for those like me new to linux (once I get my second PC fixed)
You can use the toolchain with windows too, see my signature. Of course you have to download the right repository from github and have to adapt the windows-makefile...

regards
stancecoke
Last edited by stancecoke on Jun 29 2018 5:54am, edited 1 time in total.

gadasa   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gadasa » Jun 29 2018 5:53am

After reading thist long thread, I have come to this conclusion:

The strength of this motor is also it's weakness. It is able to produce waay too much torque at low speeds. It is this torque that is killing the blue gear.

So, I think it would be very useful to add som sort of torque limiter to the controller.
This limit could perhaps be set by the user, so he could choose
high torque with metal gear and low when using the blue plastic gear?

Would this be possible to implement in the Open Source firmware prosject?

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jun 29 2018 7:19am

gadasa wrote:
Jun 29 2018 5:53am
The strength of this motor is also it's weakness. It is able to produce waay too much torque at low speeds. It is this torque that is killing the blue gear.
I broke my blue gear after 1380km's when I attempted to climb up some tall stairs with my dual suspension bike. My friend has 3000+km's on his and still going. Two other friends destroyed theirs under 1000km's.

I've been on the brass gear and almost up to 5000km's. Moral of the story, just buy yourself a brass gear and climb stairs :)
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

Waynemarlow   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jun 29 2018 11:18am

Brass gear discussion, I reckon with the type of riding I do, its only going to be a matter of time before I destroy the blue gear. A new brass one has arrived ready for fitting, just not sure what grease to use, can anyone recommend a good grease for this type of gear system that is available here in Euro land.

Thanks

Rydon   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Jun 29 2018 1:18pm

gadasa wrote:
Jun 29 2018 5:53am
The strength of this motor is also it's weakness. It is able to produce waay too much torque at low speeds. It is this torque that is killing the blue gear. So, I think it would be very useful to add som sort of torque limiter to the controller.
The Bafang configuration tool has 2 modes for the throttle; speed & current. If set to current a naive user can damage the controller/motor because full power can be applied from a dead stop. It applies power from 0 to max in a linear way. The speed mode has the current indexed to the rpm of the motor. It will ramp max power as the motor increases in speed. Speed throttle mode is much smoother and easier on all components but many don't like it because they can't get all the power they want when they want it.

Bafang also has settings for start current and ramp time. Similar settings for PAS assist including start current, ramp and one called Time of Stop which is the delay from the last magnetic pulse until the motor stops. Too high and Time of Stop can throw you into traffic or off a cliff on an MTB. Too slow and the motor will never engage at low cadences.

All of these would be useful configuration settings on the TSDZ2 and would solve a lot of the problems being brought up in this thread.

Antenor   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Antenor » Jun 29 2018 1:46pm

In europe here cant i get brass gear?
Thanks

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 30 2018 1:47am

stancecoke wrote:
Jun 29 2018 5:46am
@casainho: your project gets some attention in the german forum now... :D

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index ... st-1020823
Thanks.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Creep   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Creep » Jun 30 2018 3:29am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jun 29 2018 11:18am
Brass gear discussion, I reckon with the type of riding I do, its only going to be a matter of time before I destroy the blue gear. A new brass one has arrived ready for fitting, just not sure what grease to use, can anyone recommend a good grease for this type of gear system that is available here in Euro land.

Thanks
I lubed mine with Lucas oil red & tacky 2. Seems to work well.

SlowCo   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Jun 30 2018 3:39am

Very informative thread. Thanks to all who contributed. I might buy this mid drive motor in the near future.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 30 2018 8:59am

You may want to wait a bit if possible, a user posted in another thread that Tongsheng will be selling a newer version of the motor soon. Apparently the current motor has an issue where the blue nylon gear dear does not mesh properly with the drive gear. A new gear cannot fix the issue, it requires a complete redesign.

Depending on how you ride it though the blue gear can last a while. So far we have 1000km on ours with no issues and we are pushing 275lbs (including the bike) in very hilly terrain. But when there are hills I ride in eco mode and then use the throttle for a power boost, and I never let engine rpms drop below 75-80% of max. If it is relatively flat or when transitioning from flat to a hill I use turbo and I use the throttle as a clutch, but I try to limit my power on takeoffs.

I do not know if I would like the brass gear, the motor is very smooth and quiet with the nylon gear. I also like having a "shear pin" on my motor, I have yet to take mine apart so I am not familiar if anything else in the motor will act as a shear pin if the nylon gear is replaced with a metal one.

hobbyvac   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » Jun 30 2018 10:36am

I have a brass gear on standby but am waiting until I get more time for a tear down. I am much more annoyed by the loose fit of the bearings that cause the crank to have side play. That play can't be good for gear mesh on the larger reduction gear.

Also I want to check gear backlash on the blue gear. It would seem that tolerance control on these units is pretty poor. Some people have very quiet motors and others are noisy which seems to me is a variation in gear mesh. The same with the brass gear, some people say its almost as quiet as the blue gear and others say much noisier. I suspect that's a gear mesh symptom too? Unfortunately there is no adjustment for shaft spacing.

I am hoping to tighten up all the crank looseness with better grade bearings, shims or loctite as a last resort.

Does anyone have a list of bearing part numbers so I can order better ones in advance of the teardown? I do have their improved sprocket holder plate with proper oil seal but no point in installing it if the shaft is this loose.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elmundopalladio » Jun 30 2018 4:27pm

Hi - I have had a 250W Tsdz2 hub for 9 months now. Until recently all was fine and dandy and I have put about 1500km on this commuting to work. The drive worked well was quiet (unlike some I had read about) and I was very positive about the whole setup.

In the last week there has started a cracking/creaking when I pedal. At first I though it was my pedal bearing giving out, but after swapping out the pedals this cracking still is there and getting worse as the pedals are turned. I have gone through and tightened everything to make sure it isn't a creak against the frame. I can still feel this through the crank, which leads me to suspect this is something like a bearing in the main unit not working. The cracking (which is now starting to sound like castanets when peeling rapidly!) always happens at the same point of the rotation.

Has anyone come across similar? Is there a way to work out what might be giving way and repair this?

Thanks

Drum   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Drum » Jun 30 2018 5:26pm

It could be bearings inside the unit, but a couple of other things to check:
-Are the pedal crank arms really tight on the square taper shaft? Sometimes a bit of play here can cause a surprisingly loud creaking sound, and that often happens at the same point in the rotation each time.
-Are all of the motor mounts tight? Movement between the motor unit and the frame can also cause quite a bit of noise. (I see you say you have checked for tightness, so probably not this in your case).

hobbyvac   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » Jun 30 2018 9:27pm

The creaking is almost certainly a loose locknut holding the motor to the frame. These are a fairly sloppy fit through the bottom bracket and need to be locked down tight to prevent creaking.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Uturn » Jul 01 2018 5:05am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 30 2018 8:59am
Tongsheng will be selling a newer version of the motor
of course they will not stop developing a successful product, but a rumour is a rumour only, so the wait could be quite long and who knows it'll be worth it.

aja   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by aja » Jul 01 2018 6:51am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 27 2018 5:31pm
So...waaaaay back in the thread I was testing the XH18 and found it didn't like the 52v, it was glitching.

Well, the other day I got in some fresh 36v xh18, and one unit came damaged (the xh18 screen hit the TSDZ2 chain ring in shipping....). It was glitching just like the xh18 did when I hooked it up to 52v, and I thought that was odd.

SO, it turns out, the initial xh18 I tested with was faulty, and I tried the 52v again with the xh18, and with the 8 to 6 pin with throttle splitter, and it all worked fine! Yaaaay, so 52v working fine with XH18 display, and even throttle is confirmed.

FYI for anyone who prefers the xh18 like me.

Also, the VLCD-6 (smaller simple display) is ok, but it is KPH only. No mph option for the readout.

I can't wait until the new firmware is complete... I have a batch of the kLCD3 coming to wire up and play with! I've got a few 6 pin connectors I've saved to make them nice and clean plug n play...

Oooh this motor really turned out over this past year. Gotta love it
Great news! Yes, I mentioned my interest in the XH18 to you on messenger; I have a tiller on my velomobile so having a gripshift operated e-assist control would be easier to operate as the left hand handlebar doesn't have any gear shifters on it so should be able to slide the XH18 onto it.
I'm also greatly encouraged by the new firmware casainho has kindly developed; interested to hear how you get on with the KT LCD3; if you're going to sell them plug and play it would save me some time wiring them, as much as I enjoy learning new skills. I also have a Mac not a PC so a bit more of a challenge, though I guess I could install Linux on a Mac? So will the KT LCD3 then work with the XH18? If so that sounds like the best solution for me.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 01 2018 6:56am

aja wrote:
Jul 01 2018 6:51am
I'm also greatly encouraged by the new firmware casainho has kindly developed; interested to hear how you get on with the KT LCD3; if you're going to sell them plug and play it would save me some time wiring them, as much as I enjoy learning new skills.
I would be very happy to see shops and installers using our improved original firmware + LCD3, by selling them ready installed and tested.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 01 2018 7:27am

There are things asked over and over again on this thread, as new users arrive. To improve this, I suggest to create a FAQ wiki page on github and so new users should first read that page and will find that content when searching on google.

Volunteers to maintain this page?? It can be created on github, just like we started to do on OpenSource KT motor controllers firmware: https://github.com/stancecoke/BMSBatter ... mware/wiki

The edit of the wiki pages is very simple and can be done on the Internet browser. The wiki pages are text file + image files, that everyone will also be able to download and keep a backup -- this way, the hard work can be preserved by the authors and the community.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

pawepie   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pawepie » Jul 01 2018 8:55am

casainho wrote:
Jul 01 2018 7:27am
There are things asked over and over again on this thread, as new users arrive. To improve this, I suggest to create a FAQ wiki page on github and so new users should first read that page and will find that content when searching on google.

Volunteers to maintain this page?? It can be created on github, just like we started to do on OpenSource KT motor controllers firmware: https://github.com/stancecoke/BMSBatter ... mware/wiki

The edit of the wiki pages is very simple and can be done on the Internet browser. The wiki pages are text file + image files, that everyone will also be able to download and keep a backup -- this way, the hard work can be preserved by the authors and the community.
I think a wiki would be ideal - should we start one on your TSDZ2 controller page, or make a separate one? I'd be happy to help maintain the page.

@John and Cecil - is this an updated TSDZ2? Where did you hear this from? I'm aware of the TSDZ3, but I understand it's less of a kit than it needs a custom frame.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 01 2018 10:25am

pawepie wrote:
Jul 01 2018 8:55am
@John and Cecil - is this an updated TSDZ2? Where did you hear this from? I'm aware of the TSDZ3, but I understand it's less of a kit than it needs a custom frame.
AWD posted about it in another thread, I will paste his comments here for you:
AWD wrote:
Jun 27 2018 9:10am
The problem isn't the nylon it is the lack of engagement it has with the metal shaft gear off the motor not being deep enough. Awhile ago we received a picture from our supplier of the revised blue gear for the next intineration of the TSD and it addresses this. Why they didn't just replace the blue gear with their own brass one knowing the issues on the TSDZ2 is a mystery.

Question is when the revised version will be made available as I expected it to be out by now.
AWD wrote:
Jun 27 2018 7:43pm
It's not a part that will retro fit to the TSDZ2 as far as I know. Tong Shen is re-doing the TSDZ to address the issues it has had in the past and the blue gear is the only part I have seen so far of that effort, not sure what else they are doing. They must have run into some issues because we thought we would have seen it by now.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 01 2018 10:33am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 26 2018 5:13pm
I experienced this 'extra allowance' over time way back with my first 48v motor. Ultimately I attributed it to a loosened connection and/or voltage drop.
I used to build overclocked gaming computer systems when I was younger. Some chips would not be stable at a certain speed, but by overclocking them slowly over time eventually they would be able to achieve higher speeds. This apparently occurred due to the electric current wearing away the pathways (like a river causing ground erosion) and allowing more current to flow. I wonder if that is what is happening here.

I accidentally overcharged my battery to 56.7v today, this is going to be a tough one to try. I hope I don't have to pedal all the back up the hill if it does not kick on for me. The trick appears to require a load on the motor. If I hold the wheel off the ground it will kick for a second and then stop, but if I am on the bike and it kicks it will stay on as long as I hold the throttle, and after 30-60 seconds of full throttle everything works normally. But if I turn the unit off and back on I again have to wait for the kick and then hold the throttle before it will work normally again. Funny huh :)

Edit - 56.7v worked no problem, only took about 20 seconds to get it to kick. I guess I should try 57v 8)
Last edited by John and Cecil on Jul 01 2018 12:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

jirisrba   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jirisrba » Jul 01 2018 12:02pm

aja wrote:
Jul 01 2018 6:51am
I'm also greatly encouraged by the new firmware casainho has kindly developed; interested to hear how you get on with the KT LCD3; I also have a Mac not a PC so a bit more of a challenge, though I guess I could install Linux on a Mac?
stm8flash can work directly within terminal on mac os, just clone the git repository https://github.com/vdudouyt/stm8flash and compile with "make" command to create stm8flash binaries.

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