new eZip motor

Well, you have two methods now.

How I would assemble this pack is:

1. Place all cells in their right position
2. Place the assembly between two stiff boards
3. Place the two boards in a vice and tighten
4. While in vice, thread multiple zip ties through it and tighten.
5. Remove and discard boards.
6. Check every cell end has a voltage so you know cell to cap connection is good.
7. Assemble all connectors
8. Check resistance between all cells paralleled like I described.
9. Go for a test ride.
10. Test like DA described.

If it passes all those checks you're probably golden.

1. Place all cells in their right position
2. Place the assembly between two stiff boards
3. Place the two boards in a vice and tighten
4. While in vice, thread multiple zip ties through it and tighten.
5. Remove and discard boards.

Click to expand...

I got a better plan.

I will use smaller zip ties to go around each cell in the center in the middle on each side of the board. It will tighten the existing zip ties on each cell even tighter. My connections will be guaranteed to be true. Then I will make the parallel series connections and install the BMSs.

Cells properly paralleled are all of identical voltage!
There is no "average" voltage for paralleled cells.

Click to expand...

I tested all cells before making the video in above post and went with a tolerance of 0.1V. A 3.70V was paired with a 3.69V. A 3.54 with a 3.55 ect... I will need the two BMSs before I can charge and run these packs I am building. I will be ordering it tonight hopefully.

The picture is not correct and I saw the mistake and fixed it. The caps are the same color now on the top and the bottom. Now the BMS will work awesome with only 2 cells in parallel. That pic was taken before the video I did.

I now do fully realize the importance and convenience of a BMS. Much easier than balance charging. It would have been a serious inconvenience to balance charge two separate packs on the top my friends refrigerator with a LiPo charger. Much easier to simply plug in to a wall socket and wait for the light to turn green. Thanks. You guys are awesome for teaching me that.

I really hope it works as I really want to start building big 60 volt packs between 120 and 150 cells from those used laptop cells on e bay which are tested. Yes I have an ulterior motive for 60 volts :lol: 40 mph. :lol: :lol:


LC out.






















Thanks.

LC out.

If you had paid me any heed and listened to my recommendations ...
I have built and used my homemade batteries for around 10 years without using any BMS and with only the occasional balance charge (maybe once or twice a year), more as a "confirmation" than a "repair".
As I explained many a time ... "proper" cell selection, testing and bank matching, building of reasonable size, can produce battery builds of such consistency and reliability as to never require any "balancing".
I consider a BMS as a security blanket or a Band-Aid for a defective battery.

On the other hand ...
Your insistence on:
Using small battery size
Never monitoring cell or even pack voltage
Running battery till cell or bank is dead
Destroying battery by running it low, even once, to save pedaling, or walking, part way home

Every one of your battery failures seems to be directly attributable to you running it too low!

OK - YOU do need a BMS!
After getting frustrated at you're failing to listen to nearly omnipresent recommendations, nearly everyone insisted that you needed to use a BMS ... years ago! But you stubbornly and consistently rejected the idea!

It honestly does seem that it takes a year or more of recommendations ≫ insistence ≫ badgering to get anything to soak into your head.

Just look back at all the failures, cost and heartache that you could have avoided by listening sooner?
Yes! ... you can add a BMS to LiPo batteries!

.

OK - YOU do need a BMS!
After getting frustrated at you're failing to listen to nearly omnipresent recommendations, nearly everyone insisted that you needed to use a BMS ... years ago! But you stubbornly and consistently rejected the idea!

It honestly does seem that it takes a year or more of recommendations ≫ insistence ≫ badgering to get anything to soak into your head.

Just look back at all the failures, cost and heartache that you could have avoided by listening sooner?
.

Click to expand...

Yea. I guess it started to really soak in when I realized that it wont be much more difficult to wire up a BMS than the balance plug I used to charge up the 6S packs. The BMS being much easier and simpler and allow for charge anywhere just plug and play , no power supply to haul around. Also owning and using the SONA packs I got to see how the BMS works first hand.

The most expensive failure and heartache was the cheap crappy LiPo packs I got off of e bay. The fact that the old LiPo packs Dan sent me is proof that it was not really my fault that the e bay LiPo failed as the old packs still run. However I will accept the responsibility for not listening and buying them in the first place. I was warned and did not listen.

I spent about as much on the LiPos that failed as I did these fake LG cells but most of the LG cells I can still use and am building two 10S packs. I wish I could say the same about the LiPos. I have two 8S LiPo packs with one bad cell in each and two 10S LiPo packs also with a bad cell in each. They could be converted into four 5S packs but I am scared to take them apart. Only one of the cells is puffed up.The other 3 packs have one cell that is unstable.

Also if DA was to have built and sent me a large 18650 pack and I sent him some cash for his trouble I might have avoided the e bay LiPo but I would have simply ran them and would not have learned anything. Now by building my own lithium packs I am learning an important skill. there are two different types of people who ride electric bikes and vehicles for that matter.

1. Type one is strictly an e bike / vehicle operator. This type of person does not want to get their hands dirty or try anything new. They will spend $1,000 , $2,000 or more on an e bike straight from the factory. When the battery pack fails they will spend $500 : $1,000 or more to replace and when something else fails about the same to repair or replace.

2. My type who has an active e bike workshop , experiments with chain drives even though I own three hub motors and I build my own batteries now my way and do not give up until it works. I enjoy getting my hands dirty simply to get some satisfaction.

Is all the heartache worthwhile ?????????????

DAMM RIGHT ! Every time I ride what all you used to consider my death traps but now since Doug is here you all can see most of them have pedal chains and good working brakes. It is all worth it to me every time someone stops me and says "Hey. Did you build that yourself" " Man that is really cool " " Could you build me one like that" " How much would you sell that for"

My response is I got the motor off of e bay. I will ask them if they are mechanically inclined. Then if they never worked on go carts or motor bikes I tell them that a hub motor kit from e bay is simple and easy to install. Also less than $200. Now I tell them a geared hub motor is better as no drag and easy to pedal. Thanks for posting and your patience.

LC out.

latecurtis said:

1. Type one is strictly an e bike / vehicle operator. This type of person does not want to get their hands dirty or try anything new. They will spend $1,000 , $2,000 or more on an e bike straight from the factory. When the battery pack fails they will spend $500 : $1,000 or more to replace and when something else fails about the same to repair or replace.

2. My type who has an active e bike workshop , experiments with chain drives even though I own three hub motors and I build my own batteries now my way and do not give up until it works. I enjoy getting my hands dirty simply to get some satisfaction.

Click to expand...

Then there are type 1.5s like me. I like building a bike. But I don't want to experiment all that much either. I want a clear and efficient path to something that will work as planned. Building a battery pack doesn't fit my priorities well. Doing that takes way too much time and hassle.

When I made my first post about using the boost converter because I had 36 volt batteries and a 48v controller, I was quickly advised that I should dismantle my packs and build a 48v or 52v system. Ha! No way I'm doing that!! That would take a huge amount of time, investment in equipment and expose me to a lot of variables. So it was the boost converter for me. And if that didn't work, I'd just get a 36 volt motor controller and have a lower top speed. But the boost converter worked and is still working after more than 2500 miles.

I would only build a battery pack if it were necessary for a particular goal - for instance super high energy density or fitting a pack into a unique space.

latecurtis said:

Is all the heartache worthwhile ?????????????

DAMM RIGHT ! Every time I ride what all you used to consider my death traps but now since Doug is here you all can see most of them have pedal chains and good working brakes. It is all worth it to me every time someone stops me and says "Hey. Did you build that yourself" " Man that is really cool " " Could you build me one like that" " How much would you sell that for"

Click to expand...

For sure, there is clearly a reward in personal satisfaction that comes from doing something yourself. But picking which particular things to do yourself varies a lot by individual.

When I see LC's signature about immortality, and his stubbornness against taking advice, this quote comes to mind



Maybe he thinks he does have all the time in the world?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183031887323


They had 40 amp but think 20 amp is enough. I ordered two. one for 20 cells just like the SONA packs.

I think the LG cells are junk but could have been a lot of bad connections with all the voltage differences. The BMS should make a difference but don't think they will be better than the SONA packs. The SONA packs put out a lot of power. More power that the LG cells did at 12S but again could have been the VRUZEND kit. Also I noticed one of the caps slid right off. I am still using the caps but not interlocking them like before.

I think when they got hot the plastic expanded as one of the zip ties actually melted. They may have all had good connections before they got really hot. Then they started expanding and caused bad connections. Also the little holes in the top of the cells allow heat to escape but had no place to go. The VRUZEND kit is simply a failure by design and wish I had a better option. I will definitely need a fan to cool them down when I do run them again. Thanks.





LC out.

A BMS with balance function would be a much better idea?

A BMS with balance function would be a much better idea?

Click to expand...

I am a little confused on that statement. I thought all BMSs balance awhile charging. I figured it was their main function. the voltage cutoff and discharge cutoff were just additional features.

I looked for 20A discharge and not 35 or 40. I plan on paralleling them up with the SONA packs so they last longer. However I may have wasted my money. I think they might slow the SONA packs down. I know first hand they don't have even close to the power the SONA packs do. The only other option is to build two 6S packs and run in parallel and then they won't even put out the same power as a couple SLAs.

Three things I was looking for was the 20 amp discharge cutoff , Also the wiring harness to have different colors and the third was 4 day shipping. there were many other cheaper units on e bay with SSSSSLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW shipping from China or Hong Kong. I did not want to wait a month to build something. This battery project already lasted over two months.

So what should I expect performance-wise with these BMSs. Another complete disaster. :x Please let me know.

LC out.

latecurtis said:

A BMS with balance function would be a much better idea?

Click to expand...

I am a little confused on that statement. I thought all BMSs balance awhile charging. I figured it was their main function. the voltage cutoff and discharge cutoff were just additional features.

Click to expand...

Nope. I'm pretty sure that these BMS boards are from the LG hoverboard packs like I have given that they are not new and are 10s. Note that the seller is Alarmhookup. Same guy. Those LG packs were independently tested and shown not to balance. So I'm pretty sure that these do not balance the individual cell charge levels. Note that the listing is titled "Discharge Protection." These are for cell protection, not balance.

I think what you can expect is that these will shut your pack down if you draw more than 20 amps for very long, discharge below 3.0 volts or so per cell,, or try to charge to more than 42 volts. In other words, pretty much what the seller described.

If I'm right and they are the same circuits as in those LG hoverboard packs, they may let you drop a bit below 3.0 volts. The one I tested cut out at 28.49 volts. That said, all of my packs don't have the same exact BMS circuits. Some have smaller connectors than others. So they might or might not be electrically different. BTW, a 2.849v cutoff is reasonable when used with the LG MF1 cells in the hoverboard packs since LG specifies a low voltage limit of 2.75v for the MF1 cell. A 20 amp max discharge is similarly somewhat reasonable (though not at a conservative) since the MF1 cells have a maximum discharge of 10 amps and the packs are 2). But the recommended fast discharge is 2.150 amps per cell, so such a high discharge would allow a user to abuse these cells substantially since that 10amp maximum discharge is not supposed to be continuous.

Alarmhookup seems to be fairly reliable. If I were you, I'd scan his offerings on a regular basis when looking for battery deals. There is a high probability that you'll get what he says you'll get and he'll stand behind the product.

OK.

It still don't solve my problem of balancing. These cells are different voltages from 3.34V to about 3.85V.

They will need to be balanced.

It states it is too late to cancel the order. However I contacted the seller and stated why I do not want them and asked if they had different BMSs with the balance function. Thanks.

LC out.

#1 Charge all cells to same voltage!
One bank at a time/
Use "Charge", set to 1s.

#1 Charge all cells to same voltage!
One bank at a time/
Use charge, set to 1s.

Click to expand...

Takes about 2 to 3 hours per cell at 0.3 A. No thanks. I could wire up 6S balance plugs and the 4S plugs but would rather have a 10S BMS which does it all.

Right now I can't do anything. The e bike workshop is officially closed until further notice. I was only out there about 5 minutes earlier on today to put a 10" fan in the window. Plastic was put up two winters ago to keep in the heat so got a 10 or 12" open on one side and about the same on the other for cross ventilation however was soaked with sweat in the five minutes I was there.

The defective LiPo packs are out in the garage but the old packs Dan sent are on the front porch/e bike workshop. I don't need them exploding is why I put fan in today. Still probably around 120 degrees out there.

I am thoroughly disgusted with the LG cells. Yes their capacity is decent but no way is the discharge rate even close to rated and the SONA packs are much higher discharge. I am really sick and tired of 18650 cells as well as LiPo. I got ripped off about $400 bucks all together $200 on each. I could have bought a lot of SLAs with that $$$$. Thanks for posting.

LC out.

You realise that the Vruzend caps are rated for 3.5A right?

So 12S1P is only good for about 150w? A bit more when the pack is fully charged.

After that you will see big sag and big heat.

It's not designed for failure. It's designed for a particular usage, but take it out if that use case and its on you, not the designer.

You realise that the Vruzend caps are rated for 3.5A right?

So 12S1P is only good for about 150w? A bit more when the pack is fully charged.

After that you will see big sag and big heat.

Click to expand...

No I did not realize that.

40 * 3.5 = 140. 37 * 3.5 = 129.5.

I guess I may as well just throw out every 18650 cell and the entire cheap plastic kit and order 3 - 10 Ah SLAs then.

I wish someone would have told me before I wasted my money on them. I guess I am better off trying to solder wires to them. I got a roll of 18 gauge wire. Might run cooler also without those plastic caps.

latecurtis said:

I am thoroughly disgusted with the LG cells. Yes their capacity is decent but no way is the discharge rate even close to rated and the SONA packs are much higher discharge. I am really sick and tired of 18650 cells as well as LiPo. I got ripped off about $400 bucks all together $200 on each. I could have bought a lot of SLAs with that $$$$. Thanks for posting.
LC out.

Click to expand...

Didn't you test the capacity and prove that they weren't the cells that they were claimed to be? If so, then yhe reality is that you don't know what they are or even if LG made them.

18650 cells work great so long as you buy good quality cells and configure them properly according to their specifications. If you don't know what you've got, then you should be very conservative about what you guess you've got and even then you may not be happy with the results if you guess is too far off the mark. Mine are working fine in 105 degree Phoenix heat while being packed in black plastic cases (I should drape the cases in white). But then I've got them configured at 16P because each cell is rated only 2.15A for "fast discharge" even though the cells can supposedly peak at 10A output. And my system simply won't draw much more than about 35A. So nothing gets strained and nothing gets overly hot - no matter how hard I run the system. This is why I keep pestering you to run your packs in parallel. If you don't, you run significant risks to overload some part of the battery system. This is also why I don't build my own packs. Doing so means I have to understand and learn more things and I don't have the time right now.

I hope things cool down in NY and you can get to work assembling a pack that will work long term for you.

I just hooked up the soldering iron and it wont even melt the solder. I have two cheap 30 watt irons. They are about useless. I guess I am stuck with what I have. Complete junk. If a single pack of 20 cells can only do 140 watts without melting s hit. then even if I hooked two packs in parallel with the two SONA packs I got 140 * 4 = 560 watts. So even parallel with the SONA packs going up a hill the LG cells will melt the plastic caps and catch on fire. I guess I will throw out all the LG cells and cheap plastic garbage and order three 10 Ah SLAS. Thanks.

LC out.

Most 18650 packs are 4 to 6p, assembled using nickel strips that handle 7a without temp rising (this doesn't mean a fire)

So most 18650 packs can handle 28 to 42 amps continuous, and more for burst.

It can be done, but you need to think it through first.

How about this? You tell us what you need, we'll design a pack for you, tell you what parts you need to get, down to the links. If you need to learn how to do anything, we'll teach you through photos/videos etc.

I'll even put money on it. If you do exactly as we decide is the right spec, and follow the instructions, if it doesn't work, I'll send you the pack as it should have been.

Thanks Sunder. Basically I don't have a decent soldering iron. Also I got really thick solder that won't melt. Add to that I cant solder worth a s h i t.

Then there is the wrong BMSs I ordered. They don't balance. That is three negatives in a row. So I am stuck with these terrible plastic caps. However there is a way to balance them . I think. I know that the cells in each bank are 0.01V difference. 3.70V paired with 3.69V ect. Also all the cells are new so normally would have the same capacity , charge and discharge rate.

Obviously if I build two 10S - 20 cell packs I will have 40 cells at 10S and approx. 8 AH. About exactly what the two SONA packs are in parallel. The major difference between the SONA packs is the discharge rate and the SONA packs do not get hot as they do not run plastic caps but they are wrapped up and in plastic waterproof tupperwear containers.

So again the greater discharge rate of the SONA packs enable them to run about 50 to 60 degrees cooler than the LG cells at the same discharge rate. This leaves me with two questions.

1. Can I run all four packs in parallel or will the LG packs slow down the SONA packs ?

2. According to the bottom pictures is it possible to balance charge the 20 cell pack using both LiPo chargers. one charger charging 6 banks at 6S and the other 4 banks at 4S then once balance charged run the entire pack as a 10S pack ?

basically going on three months I want to get some of my moneys worth out of this project. I am attempting to cancel the BMSs as they do not have the balance feature. I will have to order different BMSs which will be SLOWWW shipping from China so would like to simply balance these and run them in parallel with the SONA packs until then. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC out.

I will run these cells.


BMS


no BMS

I don't care :lol:

They will be balanced and will run. Anyway possible. I have to get some money worth. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-OSzkfZqMI&feature=youtu.be

DrkAngel said:

#1 Charge all cells to same voltage!
One bank at a time/
Use "Charge", set to 1s.

Click to expand...

Balance charger should only be used with cells of nearly identical voltage!
Similar charger takes pack voltage to full then bleeds down higher cells.
So, may charge higher bank 5 to dangerously above 4.20V.
Monitor continuously!!!

Sunder said:

Most 18650 packs are 4 to 6p, assembled using nickel strips that handle 7a without temp rising (this doesn't mean a fire)

So most 18650 packs can handle 28 to 42 amps continuous, and more for burst.

It can be done, but you need to think it through first.

How about this? You tell us what you need, we'll design a pack for you, tell you what parts you need to get, down to the links. If you need to learn how to do anything, we'll teach you through photos/videos etc.

I'll even put money on it. If you do exactly as we decide is the right spec, and follow the instructions, if it doesn't work, I'll send you the pack as it should have been.

Click to expand...

Experience proves out a lack of understanding, temperament, skills, equipment to accomplish a "proper" build.
Combined with his belligerently stubborn insistence on doing things his way ... ?
Recommend instead he just buy more Hoverboard battery packs.
Even though he, at 1st, thought they were crap and did chop off the good connectors ... finally, he learned appreciation and they might be idiot proof enough for him.
He just needs to add more in parallel, so they can survive a while.

DrkAngel said:

Even though he, at 1st, thought they were crap and did chop off the good connectors ... finally, he learned appreciation and they might be idiot proof enough for him.
He just needs to add more in parallel, so they can survive a while.

Click to expand...

Well, they've been idiot proof enough for me...

Balance charger should only be used with cells of nearly identical voltage!
Similar charger takes pack voltage to full then bleeds down higher cells.
So, may charge higher bank 5 to dangerously above 4.20V.
Monitor continuously!!!

Click to expand...

I will monitor them. If I see a cell bank over 4.3V I will hook up a balancer and balance them down to 4V if possible or 3.8V if the balancer won't allow 4V then put back on the charger.

Not sure if the 6S balancer will balance at 4S. Then I may have to charge the last four banks separate.

I got a refund on the wrong BMSs. Does anyone know where I can order two BMS for about 30 bucks or under $20 each and NOT have to wait a month or more.

I only got tape around the connections so when I get BMS can easily unhook balance wires , replace with BMS wires and solder.

Nobody has gave me a straight answer if I can hook up these two 36V packs in parallel to the SONA packs ? It could keep the SONA packs around longer and maybe the LG packs would not run as hot by sharing the load. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC out.

PS. Thank you DA. You saved me from screwing these cells up even more. I did not know that the LiPo charger worked like that. The balancer should do the trick. Not sure how to set it for a particular voltage but will monitor it.

I was busy and missed a few pages when the Sona packs were built.

What are they?

In general, if two batteries have the same voltage range, they can be paralleled.

Some exceptions exist, when the difference in internal resistance is huge, but if they're both lithium based, that's rare.