new eZip motor

The Sona packs are 10s 2P "hoverboard" packs of a configuration similar to all those LG packs that were being sold at low prices last year.
I think they are somewhere arount 4.0 - 4.4 amp capacity.

OK Thanks. What I will do is run them a short distance and then check voltage. I won't go over 10 mph either.

I have plenty of 18650 cells left over so am still considering a liquid cooling set up.

All a fan will do is blow hot air thru the cells especially when it is above 90 degrees out. I got fans in a lot of the windows and seems to make little difference whether they blow out or in.

The balancer seems to be working. I still have to wire up the other four banks for 4S balancing but first need to see if the balancer works for 4S. If not I will need to charge the last 4 banks separate. Thanks.

LC out.

latecurtis said:

All a fan will do is blow hot air thru the cells especially when it is above 90 degrees out. I got fans in a lot of the windows and seems to make little difference whether they blow out or in.

Click to expand...

If the cells are much hotter than the ambient air, then the fan will help. Of course the best thing is to avoid heating the cells up much to begin with.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cooler-Master-MasterLiquid-Lite-240-AIO-CPU-Liquid-Cooler-White-Led-Pump-FEP-T/292334110674?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3D52c13a631a9a45a7aca47e0c4268deb1%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D162670290300%26itm%3D292334110674&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982

A special battery case may work for this. The price is right as they say. I am curious what would happen. Also I need a thermometer digital so I can monitor the temperature inside the case where the cells and controller are sealed. Fans and ventilation need to be on the bottom and top sealed so water can't get inside as it rains a lot here. Has anyone built anything like that before. It could help me to design this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGPoXEqbO6o

I fail to see how that could possibly work. There is absolutely no space between the cells for any air flow. I never researched how these things work but do not need to now that I see the fans. I thought liquid cooling was mainly copper pipes surrounding the CPU and the cooling was done mainly from the piping but is seems with two fans that it is air cooling and the air is cooled down to a temperature much lower that the air coming in depending on outside temperature. If 0 - 20 degrees outside then may not need liquid cooling.

It should not be too difficult and ventilation would need to be minimum as do not need a lot of 100 degree air entering the enclosure. A small vent letting a little air in and a second letting some out on the opposite end should work sufficiently. it should keep internal temperature from rising and causing the LG cells to fail again.

Any feed back on this subject will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


LC out.

Sunder said:

I was busy and missed a few pages when the Sona packs were built.

What are they?

Click to expand...

Several of us found, and I posted up a link, for "new-newish" 36V 4400mAh hoverboard batteries. 10s2p
I purchased several lots including 2 lots of 10 @ $25 each pack. I got Genuine Samsung ICR18650-22p.
Samsung cells are rated at 10A continuous and 20A surge per cell.
Worked great as power tool rebuilds!
($1.25 per cell with good BMS)
LG cells similarly available.
LC ignored until way late but finally did get 2 36V 4000mAh packs (Sona cells).
Yes, I did post specifically for LC!

LC ignored until way late but finally did get 2 36V 4000mAh packs (Sona cells).
Yes, I did post specifically for LC!

Click to expand...

correction.

LC was totally broke because is on a set income and gets his disability check at the beginning of each month. but finally did get 2 - 36V 4,000 Ah packs (SONA cells).

Thank you DA and I will definitely buy more of them if they become available once again.

Could you please look at my last post on liquid cooling 18650 cells. Do you think it has a chance to work. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC out.

That is specifically designed for very small and very hot bits of electronics (a CPU). The idea is to carry the high heat from the small area to a very large area where fans can blow air in sufficient quantity to dissipate the heat. This setup is not well suited to Li-ion batteries because their shapes and sizes are so different. Putting your batteries in a box that would have air being blown through it would almost surely be a lot better - especially if your cells had air spaces between them as I see in your home-built packs. That would take advantage of the relatively large surface area that the cells have compared to a CPU. You could also do this passively so that wind created by bike movement would move through the box. Of course, this won't be good for wet weather.

But why spend $45 on any cooling? Spend it instead on another Sona or similar pack and wire it in parallel to minimize the heat to begin with.

I suggest trying to think longer term about longer term solutions. You are burning through money with these halfway solutions that deal with short term problems.

DrkAngel said:

LC ignored until way late but finally did get 2 36V 4000mAh packs (Sona cells).
Yes, I did post specifically for LC!

Click to expand...

latecurtis said:

correction.

LC was totally broke because is on a set income and gets his disability check at the beginning of each month. but finally did get 2 - 36V 4,000 Ah packs (SONA cells).

Click to expand...

Well, posted up link and info on June 7, 2017 and were available for several months! LC finally ordered Sona packs from same seller on December 6, 2017.

OK.

You are probably right.

How about the liquid cooling idea. Will it work ?

top in picture is 4.04V. Hard to see but did not feel like taking the picture over. Not sure I should order the BMSs as the cells might still get hot and a repeat disaster may occur. Thinking about the liquid cooler instead. Not enough money for both right now.

If 3.5 amps without liquid cooling can I get 7 amps with liquid cooling.

3.5 * 40 = 140 watts

7 * 40 = 280 watts each pack. - 560 watts total.

Run WITH SONA packs - 1,120 watts total - 80 cells total - > 16 Ah capacity. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC out.

I had considered making a post about the difficulties and expense and fragility of a liquid cooling system. But who am I kidding. No possible good can come of it. So the answer is:

No, liquid cooling is not possible.

https://www.google.com/search?q=battery+liquid+cooling+system&sa=X&biw=1536&bih=710&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=4uoWf5otz4mgMM%253A%252CdI7gb8GNrxT7eM%252C_&usg=__3EZqFmVZ8yBOPMlfS8_N6de8kHY%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjGquXKpoLcAhVQqlkKHUKRAKIQ9QEItwEwBQ#imgrc=4uoWf5otz4mgMM:

OK then explain that.


Looks like all my connections are true. I can now balance charge a 10S pack with a 6S or two 6S LiPo chargers. How many ES members would have thought of that. I can combine the 6S and 4S packs into a single 10S pack by simply plugging in a single bullet cable for 10S run.

Obviously I won't need anything that elaborate. This is not a battery pack for a Tesla.

Looking to cool down about 1 to 1 - 1/2 cubic foot of space where the packs and controller will be. Should not be rocket science either.
There is plenty of space between the cells for air flow. I don't see why it would not work. Please explain. Thanks.

LC out.

With the right engineering, water cooling will certainly work. But the key there is the need for the right engineering.

You need to use a liquid that won't corrode the battery case. You need a pump and a scheme to make sure the liquid circulates well. You need a radiator system and probably some fans. If no fans, you need to make sure the radiator is positioned to take advantage of the air flow created by the bike's forward motion.

But just because you can make something work doesn't mean that it is a sensible thing to do from a pragmatic standpoint. A liquid cooling system for batteries will add weight, complexity, space and cost. It will also take some amount of battery power to run the thing. OTOH, you can simply reduce the heat generated by batteries by running more of them in parallel. This not only extends the usefulness of the existing batteries because the batteries will be operating more efficiently, but it also increases overall range and capacity simply because you are using more cells. And further, it extends the life of the cells because they are put under less strain. From a long term perspective, you get more for you ebike money by not cooling the batteries, but by simply adding enough cells in parallel so that cooling isn't necessary. The big clue that this is generally the right approach for an ebike is found by looking at how many people are water cooling their ebike batteries.

So why does Tesla water cool their batteries? Because they want to accelerate a heavier vehicle faster and drive it at much faster average and top speeds. Furthermore, they already have a hugely paralleled battery system. For instance, the Tesla Model S uses 74P packs in series. Further still, unlike the open framework of most bicycles, it is difficult to expose the massive battery system of the Tesla to a good stream of air. That's hard to do when you have over 8000 18650 cells in your pack.

Thanks Wturber. Pretty much what I had considered writing in the first place. But then I remembered that we tried to tell him why people don't use rear rack mounted single gear chain drives any more, and he took that as a challenge and a point of pride, instead of advice.

If it costs you 100x more and is more unreliable, heavy, etc than just getting a bigger battery, it's not a workable solution. It'a creating yourself more problems.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G3BB2381&cm_re=antec_fan-_-9SIA24G3BB2381-_-Product

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hollis-homemade-AC/

All the cells are within 0.03V now and ready to balance charge at 6S and 4S with both LiPo chargers at the same time. It will be temporary until I get two BMSs. If anyone knows what BMS to order that won't take a year to get here please let me know.

Basically I designed the pack for a cooling system simply by spacing the cells apart. I can easily run copper pipe with coolant between all the cells and two fans to do the trick. one pushing air thru from one end and a second out the other. I can set the packs side by side and run a radiator on the top , bottom or both.

I will need a thermostat so that the cooling unit shuts off at 55 degrees and turns on at 85 degrees I think. Not sure. there may be a thermostat which can be mounted to or very close to some of the cells.

Should not be hard to do. it is just an idea but I have quite a few 18650 cells not being used for anything so can easily build a decent size 12 volt pack. It is just an idea I am throwing around. Basically there are probably thousands of ways to cool a small space for two of these home made packs. I would like to hear some ideas from all of you.

Yes I could order 20 more of the same junk cells and build two more and run all in parallel for a 60 cell LG pack. Or I could hook two in parallel with the two SONA packs. then maybe a couple of those fans would be enough to cool the 40 LG cells I have now. Not sure but am exploring the many options. Thanks.

LC out.

I ordered two BMSs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202250766864

SLOOOOW shipping from China.

Thinking about ordering three SLAs. From the USA.

Probably get them and break em in long before the BMSs show up. One of the LG cells charged to 4.27V on the LiPo charger. Put it back on the balancer. Those cells are absolute junk. Not sure if I want to spend the time building a second 20 cell - 10S pack.

Might be better off throwing all of them in the garbage and ordering 40 different cells. The LG cells run way too hot and really cant afford a liquid cooler. Don't really know what to do. So much mis-information.

Seems that only 18650 cells any good are the ones in the SONA packs. everything else is complete garbage. Thanks.

LC out.

latecurtis said:

Yes I could order 20 more of the same junk cells and build two more and run all in parallel for a 60 cell LG pack. Or I could hook two in parallel with the two SONA packs. then maybe a couple of those fans would be enough to cool the 40 LG cells I have now. Not sure but am exploring the many options. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Were it me, I wouldn't have bought any BMS boards from China. I'd save my money until I could buy two more SONA or similar packs. Then I'd have four packs in parallel. Then I'd sit tight and do the same thing and buy two more again once I'd saved that money. That would probably give me a stable pack that I wouldn't have to mess with or cool. Then I could decide if it makes sense to fiddle with the other batteries. But I probably wouldn't spend any more money on them. I think continuing to try to cool/reconfigure the apparently fake LG batteries is just throwing good money after bad.

There is no way I'd spend any money on SLA batteries.

latecurtis said:

Thinking about ordering three SLAs. From the USA.

Probably get them and break em in long before the BMSs show up.

Click to expand...

Might be a good idea ... for LC.
SLA are pretty much Idiot proof!

Discharging too deeply does not totally destroy the SLA battery!
It merely degrades capacity and lifespan, extremely quickly perhaps, but ...
lifespan will exceed the lifespan of Lithium ... given the misuse, abuse, inept assembly they suffer from LC.

Betya' he orders the smallest SLA!
8-10Ah? That will be discharging at 4-5C, from batteries rated for .05C discharge.
Funniest of all ...
at his typical discharge rate, 36V 10Ah (20lb - $60) heavy Lead Ass battery will have less output than a single 36V 4Ah Sona battery (2lb - $35)!
But, LC seems better suited to 19th century technology.
Just hope he doesn't try "breaking in" SLA batteries by running them dead ... again.

Funny point ...
LC always seems to buy small batteries "to save weight!"
Which ensures poor performance, rapid deterioration, early death ...
but then says he "will carry old (super heavy) Lead Acid batteries in case Lithium runs too low".

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. 20" bike down.

Upon take off last night Houston had a problem. The chain slipped and grinding making much noise as the bike slowed down and sped up. Upon inspection the chain seemed tight. I believe it could be the motor sprocket. Not sure but am thinking about throwing it in the garbage after removing the motor.

I got the Currie running with both the disk and V brake on the front however need to replace the front wheel today as it is bent and listened to clackety clack all the way downtown and back. The SONA packs held up well. As far as the LG cells ; the capacity is there they just run very hot.

In the winter time it gets really cold around these parts. Perhaps that would be a great time to run them with a couple small cheap 2,000 rpm fans like I posted and can then give the SONA packs a break. I will never order SLAs again. Too much weight.

I am considering a new build. I believe there is still life in the old LiPo packs. I am thinking about a 24" bike frame with the 48V - 1,000 watt motor on the rear but at 36V and 750 watts. The 800 watt hub motor can go on the front. The SONA packs can power the rear motor and the LiPo packs the front motor. This should be 1/2 the strain on the motors, controllers and batteries especially going up any hills. Please let me know if it would. I want an honest opinion.

Since I am accused of battery abuse which is questionable since the SONA packs would have held up nicely going up State st. hill as I did that many times. The LG packs did not fail up the hill either. They failed on the flat going 10 mph. I believe the reason for the failure to be the heat produced going up the hill expanded the plastic caps causing loose and dead connections compromising the integrity of the packs.

Am I at fault. Yes I should have known as I noticed they got really hot when running a single 24V - 24 cell pack on the flat. Was not enough power for up hills. I should have never took them up state st. hill in series for 12S and 48V.

However

the shitty VRUZEND plastic caps definitely caused the batteries to heat up as the LG cells have small holes in the top where heat can escape. I could prove this theory by taking the SONA pack apart and running 20 of the cells with the VRUZEND plastic caps but why would I destroy quality SONA cells to prove a point.

The only good thing which came out of this is it may save a lot of heartache. Please tell everyone NOT to buy the VRUZEND kit. It is garbage and I would love nothing more than to blast the owner of the company directly in the face. They need to go out of business.

My friend downtown gave me a soldering iron and some solder which is the proper solder to use with the iron. I was trying to use some thick plumber solder which would not melt right with the little iron. YES I am tearing the pack I spent three days wiring up and throwing the entire crappy VRUZEND kit out. Then if I can't solder the cells I will have my friend downtown or Doug solder a wire to each cell positive and negative and rebuild the pack as soon as I get the BMSs.

I will use two large fans for cooling and am willing to bet that the LG cells hold up going up State st. hill if I run 40 cells. Two 20 cell packs in parallel each with a BMS exactly how the SONA packs are wired up. Right now I need to replace the front wheel on the Currie. Thanks for posting and please let me know if what I said makes any sense to you and if I am on the right track. Thanks.

LC out.

1. Chains slip when the bushings and pin wear, increasing the pitch of the chain. If you leave it too long, it will then round out the gear teeth, and you'll have to replace both.

2. I thought I'd look around who else is using the Vruzend kits on ES. There were a few complaints about the first generation of kits, but everyone else seems pretty pleased with it. E.g:

tomjasz said:

I like the V2 Vruzend for a more compact solderless build, and no magnets.

Click to expand...

Matador said:

The bussbars though (in stainless) are 8mm wide x 0.5 mm thick x 2.5 cm long. So I estimated that each are 4.33 milliohms each.... So that adds to the lost energy in heat. The good news is, that's easy to swapp out for copper.
The Vruzend holders are totally awesome !

Click to expand...

(I think Matador's post was referring to the first gen bussbars which were made out of stainless steel. The new gen can handle more current)

So, no, I think I'll keep recommending them.

2. I thought I'd look around who else is using the Vruzend kits on ES. There were a few complaints about the first generation of kits, but everyone else seems pretty pleased with it. E.g:
tomjasz wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 2:03 am
I like the V2 Vruzend for a more compact solderless build, and no magnets.
Matador wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:34 pm
The bussbars though (in stainless) are 8mm wide x 0.5 mm thick x 2.5 cm long. So I estimated that each are 4.33 milliohms each.... So that adds to the lost energy in heat. The good news is, that's easy to swapp out for copper.
The Vruzend holders are totally awesome !
(I think Matador's post was referring to the first gen bussbars which were made out of stainless steel. The new gen can handle more current)

So, no, I think I'll keep recommending them.

Click to expand...

You do that. :x

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173310274870

Awhile you do I will get a 60 watt soldering gun and solder 18 gauge copper wire to these little magnets and throw every last one of the plastic lego garbage in the trash can. They are definitely junk and is why my LG packs failed. I will not take any more responsibility for the failure. I am standing firm on this one and will prove again I am right.

I may not need JB weld. If I have a REAL soldering iron capable of melting the solder then left over solder from the wire connection should solder the magnet to the cells. Then a little hot glue can keep the cells in place with the wood holder. Zip ties and plastic caps heat up and are basically garbage. I just need to see if glue or JB weld or something else would be better to hold the cells in place to the wood cell holders.

I will use two computer fans to cool down 40 cells in 10S configuration. I can repeat the process with used laptop batteries. My new kits will outperform and replace cheap plastic garbage. I can build real kits to sell which will put VRUZEND out of it's misery. Thanks.

LC out.

Indeed my previous post was on the V1 1st generation Vruzend.
I'm under the impression that LC has no clue of the concept of internal resistance odlf 18650 cells. Running such a small 18650 pack with his setup is likely to get the cells themselves burning hot from the high internal resistance of the cells themselves. Of course the Vruzend will melt in this abusive setting. The problem in not the device... Its the operator. LC really small holes on the cells to let "the heat" out ??? ... As in the cells "venting" from very getting abused maybe ?? What are you going to recommend next ?? I m guessing "Charge all cells up to 4.5V prior to soldering. Apply flux on cell teminals and wires. Lite up the propane blowtorch until you get a nice 4 inch blue flame and start the soldering. Oh yes... Dont forget to wear safety googles..."

Thanks Matador, didn't intend to pull you into a debate by quoting you, but glad you're seeing what LC is not.

It does seem if we give him advice 15 times, and he destroys enough *whatevers* to run out of money, he will start listening, so it's not all in vain

Ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge on a subject.
With all the advice we've provided, largely as a direct response to his request, LC can't claim ignorance!

Stubbornly Ignorant?
. . or
Belligerently Oblivious?

Think I should mention that soldering magnets will destroy the magnetism? Waste of time?

DrkAngel said:

Ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge on a subject.
With all the advice we've provided, largely as a direct response to his request, LC can't claim ignorance!

Click to expand...

I tested a single hoverboard pack last November specifically for LC so he'd have an idea of a single pack's mileage range. The pack got fairly warm - something I hadn't seen when running the packs in groups of four or more. My recommendation was to run a minimum of two such packs in parallel and preferably to run three or four. That recommendation still stands.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62231&p=1332985&hilit=wturber#p1332985

I've run as low as 2 in parallel (Samsung cells) on old WE 600w brush hub motor.
On a Schwinn Comfort Cruiser, just slo-pokeing along < 20mph, have a fair bit left after 10 mile of trail cruising, mostly level with few stops and starts.

Even in an insulated bag, on mid 90sºF day, they never get more than slightly warm.

At 8.8Ah range takes some getting used to, typical builds are 25Ah+, but battery swap to alternate pair takes mere seconds.
Yes, if going to use for any distance, hard use or time, I parallel up at 4 for 17.6Ah = can cruise for hours!

LC suffers horribly on range and efficiency due to excessive high gearing and small battery size, for his equipment.