new eZip motor

Have fun soldering magnets. You need to be VERY quick. HEAT destroys magnetic field, but of course you knew that. Run to few cells again and all the magnets will release.

Click to expand...

Thanks guys. I did not know that. I will do research on cold solder JB weld and different types of glue and how they stand up to heat.

https://www.jbweld.com/products/highheat-epoxy-putty

You do have another good point. I can't blame the VRUZEND kit either unless I were to test it with the exact same cells which are in the SONA packs. There is a very good chance they would not fail as I run the SONA packs inside sealed plastic Tupperware containers and they work perfect each time I run them.


LC out.

If you're putting Vruzend into the mix as a "rich company", you made another huge mistake. It was started by a engineer educated in the USA and building a company from scratch. In a country where you are rich compared to much of the population.

No. VRUZEND is off the hook.


LC out.

Well, you are part of the problem because you didn't insist on a full refund. Instead you accepted the fake cells at a discounted price. Was part of that deal that you didn't report the seller to ebay or did you report the fraud?

Also, the factory making the cells may be 100% legit for all we know. It could easily be a third party re-labeling/marking the cells to turn them into counterfeit.

latecurtis said:

I would love to see the fake factory who makes them blow up and everyone there perish.

Click to expand...

And with this wishing of ill will upon others, I'll now leave you to your own self-defeating ways and will no longer try to help you out. It isn't like I've been very effective anyway.

I hope you can stop being so angry and be better able to accept the help of others as well as the "imperfections" of the world.

I hope you can stop being so angry and be better able to accept the help of others as well as the "imperfections" of the world.

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imperfections. ???? :lol:

lying , stealing and scamming. I consider that more than an imperfection.

Those who are religious would consider that breaking one of the ten commandments. Then there are the identity thieves. Imagine how the poor folk feel when they are scammed.

Sure there are good people like you and other folk here on ES. You are all Saints compared to all the crooked a_ss _ h_ _ _ s out there.

You got people printing their own money in basements. People selling drugs to kids. There is more bad than good in the world. But that is just my opinion. Yes I do wish bad Karma to those who willingly and purposefully lie , cheat and steal for personal gain. They are predators and do not care who they hurt. Think about how a scam like that could harm an innocent person.

What if someone who did not know any better bought cells for solar power back up. Advertised as high capacity and then their house burns down and their kids don't make it out because some company decided to scam people for personal gain.

I have a brain and think about stuff like that. Scammers are liars and crooks and get whatever they deserve. I will miss you Wtuber. You are a good person but a little naive as to what is happening in the world. Our planet is going to hell in a hand-basket. Thanks.

LC out.

I'm still not convinced they're fake.

You can't half discharge a cell to "protect" it, then claim it only has half capacity.

Everything is specified to a certain condition. People buy cars that go 10km/l - on a perfect track, with a trained driver. Then they buy the car, put on roof racks, drive with a lead foot on start and stop traffic, and claim the manufacturer lied. Problem is, some (like VW) lied, but most the time, it's the driver.

I doubt anyone scammed you. You just don't know how to use the kit you buy. The Sona packs, being designed for motorised transport were at least close to your use case, so you didn't destroy them. But when you tried to design something yourself, you built underspec and complained the products were faulty.

I doubt anyone scammed you. You just don't know how to use the kit you buy. The Sona packs, being designed for motorised transport were at least close to your use case, so you didn't destroy them. But when you tried to design something yourself, you built underspec and complained the products were faulty.

Click to expand...

A discharge capacity test proves nothing. Even if the cells were 3,000 mAh or close to it that proves absolutely nothing.

What does prove something is the temperature of the cell during NORMAL discharge. State st. hill is not really a steep incline. The SONA packs are 20 cells configured for 10S. two rows of ten cells in parallel with each other. 40 cells total. approx 40V fully charged or >40V and <41V

The SONA packs have been run at least 1/2 a dozen times up State st. hill. No problems.

The LG cells were hooked up perfectly and at 24V , four rows of six cells They got hot on the flat. They were not capable of climbing a hill so ran them at least 10 times downtown and then ran the SONA packs back up hill to go home.

I did this about 6 to 8 trips and the LG packs ran a little hot but were assembled properly And balanced charged each time. After I assembled the second pack I also ran it 6 to 8 times BEFORE combining them for 12S approx. 48V - 44V - two 6S - 24cells in each pack. 48 cells total for 48 - 44V. How do you consider that underspec ?????

The FIRST time I ran them up the same hill they soon after failed MISERABLY. That is all the proof I need that they are junk and that I was scammed.

I may not be as smart as DA or you Sunder but what I do know is I base my facts on scientific proof. I ran several capacity tests on the cells and was satisfied that they were > 2,000 mAh. I did not care if they were 3,000 mAh as listed on e bay.

I carefully assembled the packs and tested them with a balancer and balanced charged each pack. I then ran each pack light duty on the flat and downhill for about two weeks each pack separately. That rules out me building the packs improperly.

I am not sure about discharge rates but did go to college for electrical technology and know ohm's law.

750 watts / 40 volts = 18.75 amps. 48 cells/20 amps = 2.4 amps per cell. Like I said I do not know about C or discharge rate but know for a fact the discharge rate listed to sell the product was an outright lie.

I would love to see the people who advertised these cells discharge rate sit their bare a _ _ on a pack of those cells even at 1/2 the discharge rate they advertised. I was 100% correct stating there a fire hazard and could burn someones house down.

I really do not see any reason to post anymore here. I have shot many videos testing these cells with two different LiPo chargers , my multi-meter and several balancers. I have made videos building and running the packs and recharging them and still get accused of improperly building them and abusing the batteries going up a small hill which was not even steep.

I will miss Wtuber and all of you and I consider you all friends but am sick and tired of having my intelligence insulted and sticking up for very shady companies that rob people on e bay. It just makes no sense to me. Thanks.
LC out.

Wow, common sense should have told you that if 4p cells got hot at normal use ...
running them up a hill at 4p would burn them up.
Pretty sure you had them poorly paralleled which means you were pulling 40A through 3 maybe 2 cells.

That some cells were 3.7V and others were 3.4V seems to confirm that you paralleled badly.

Properly assembled cells, when discharged at moderate rates, will discharge to the same voltage,
and charge, not balance charge, charge, right back to the same voltages they started at.

They were NOT poorly paralleled until AFTER I ran them up State st. hill.

How do I know that ? I already stated I ran them about 6 to 8 times on flat ground and down hill. probably 10 to 15 miles at 6S - 22 - 24V BEFORE hooking them in series. A couple times about 2 miles total but at least a mile each time

I checked them each time I returned home with a balancer then balanced charged.

The day I ran them up the hill they did not fail then either going up the hill. I was going to Grimmers electronics to get bannana plugs and a kill switch for the Currie.

I spent at least 20 minutes in the store and also went to advanced Auto as I got the kill switch there. Then I walked about 3 or 4 blocks thru heavy traffic with the switch turned off.

It was after that I was going about 10 to 12 mph pedal assist on flat ground that I heard a pop noise and the bike stopped. I got it home walking it and saw all the damage to the packs.

It is very obvious to me that the packs overheated as zip ties were melted and some of the caps slid right off and the metal connectors were melted into the plastic.

I will google map the distance and slope from Nott terrace to Grimmers electronics. You can then figure the discharge rate of the cells and compare that to the rated discharge rate the batteries were advertised for.

The bottom pic for gear ratio is based on the 48 volt 3,000 rpm Unite 1,000 watt motor at 44V The motor was warm but not too hot to touch when I got to glimmers. 916.6 watts was the output of the motor.

I have made the same exact trip with the same gear ratio with three SLAs , The old LiPo packs Dan sent and the cheap LiPo I got off of e bay and the SONA packs. The only packs which failed were the ones I built with the LG cells. HMMMMM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo

Thanks. I hope Wtuber at least posts here again. He don't have to give me advice. I just like to know how he is doing and just say hello.

I am not really looking for advice. If anything I like to give my advice sometimes. Like Stay away from LG cells period. There really is no way to know if they are fake or not until they fail. Capacity tests do not mean much. Discharge rate and heat are what is important and the cooler any battery runs means it is safer and the cells that run hot are fire hazards. It is as simple as that. Thanks.

LC out.

You builds are sloppy and your methods are poorly thought out. Period.

I’ve sold hundreds if not thousands of LG cells in packs. No problems.

Maybe your connection for LG cells is the genuine real deal.

The only way to tell is to run them.

Where did you get your cells ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aImy8i-NPZ0&feature=youtu.be


Really.

How did I accomplish that then with used Lipo packs several years old. 24V and approx. 500 watts to each motor. That was just one of my builds.

You are new to this post. Mabye you should look at some of my builds. That same hill I went up about 8 months later with three SLAs.
I ran alligater clips and almost melted a hole in one of the SLAs. It was the same exact motor and gearing that i just used the other day when those great LG cells you are bragging about FAILED.

Old LiPo packs succeeded and s h i t t y SLAs succeeded but LG packs FAILED MISERABLY !!!!!

I am not saying they are the same LG cells you are selling because I would bet that they are NOT. Especially if you sold that many. The problem is in telling the difference before ordering. The only thing I can think of is a small thermometer which actually attaches or wraps around the 18650 cells. Then a load is attached and 1/2 of rated discharge capacity is applied and temperature is monitored.

Then one of the LG cells I got will be compared to one of yours. I would like to see the test results. How about you ?

The point on third st. in that picture is my first failure which was the first few pages on this post. It was my first e bike the Currie which this post is named for. The original 24V 450 watt Currie gear reduction chain drive motor running at 36 volts and 675 watts. The motor burned out and stopped there on third st. after climbing the hill. Right where the route ends on the picture.

I have accomplished many things here on ES and have over 200 pages to prove it. Yes there are many failures also but have proven over and over it was not ALL my fault. Maybe 50% was for NOT listening but the other 50% was the cheap junk I bought on e bay and the vendors who lie thru their teeth about what they are selling.

Perhaps you can stop sticking up for the scammers and let me know how much you would sell me a 53V - 13S pack with a BMS for and maybe we can do business. Thanks.

LC out.

.
... Typical! You never read the description-info-instructions

"The caps in your VRUZEND kit with stainless steel spring contacts are rated for a peak current of 5 A each, and it is better to aim for 3.5 A of continuous current. That means that you’ll want to make sure that you plan to have enough cells in parallel to handle your total current load. A single cell would be able to support a peak of 5 A when using the VRUZEND terminal caps. "

Your 4p battery build was rated for 14A! (20A for brief surges) ... not the 40-50A you subjected it to!
Similarly to the 5A alligator clips you were running 40A through, the clips would heat very quickly and transfer damaging heat to the LG cells!
Heat would build and likely detension the springs in the caps ≫ causing poor pressure ≫ causing arcing ≫ causing great heat ≫ causing cap or cell failure ≫ putting a much greater load on remaining cells in parallel ≫ causing substantially more-more heat!!!

All this is explained in the sellers item description and their support page!
As per usual ... you only seem to see what you want to see?

Honestly LC ... trying to help you is like trying to spoon feed a tired angry baby ...

latecurtis said:

I am not sure about discharge rates but did go to college for electrical technology and know ohm's law.

750 watts / 40 volts = 18.75 amps. 48 cells/20 amps = 2.4 amps per cell. Like I said I do not know about C or discharge rate but know for a fact the discharge rate listed to sell the product was an outright lie.

Click to expand...

You know Ohm's law? So why are you dividing the number of cells by amps? Think about that one for a second. If you had 48 guys lifting 20 kilos, do you divide 48/20, to figure out each kilo is carried by 2.4 guys? Or divide 20 by 48 to figure out each guy is carrying 416g?

Further more, you don't have 48 cells in parallel. If you were trying to figure out how much load each cell is taking, you only divide by the number of parallel cells, not the total cells.

latecurtis said:

sick and tired of having my intelligence insulted and sticking up for very shady companies that rob people on e bay.

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I really don't know what to say to this. I take no joy in insulting your intelligence, but if you're wrong, you're wrong, and I've never shied away from calling a spade a spade. It's bad enough when it results in you destroying your own stuff. But if you try to destroy the reputation of decent, hard working vendors, then I'm not going to let you do that. I know you no longer blame Vruzend, which is good, but you could be ruining the reputation of an eBay business, which is trying to make a modest living out of thin margins, and rely on a good rep to do so. I certainly know I tend to avoid sellers that have one or two bad ratings on batteries. If those bad ratings were placed there by someone who didn't know how to test, an honest seller loses.

To be absolutely frank, I don't know if the LG cells are good, bad, genuine or fake. What I do know is your "scientific tests" are performed poorly, and not strong evidence. If you are going to try to destroy someone's livelihood, you want to be pretty damn sure what you're saying is true.

To be absolutely frank, I don't know if the LG cells are good, bad, genuine or fake. What I do know is your "scientific tests" are performed poorly, and not strong evidence. If you are going to try to destroy someone's livelihood, you want to be pretty damn sure what you're saying is true.

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The VRUZEND cells were close to $40 with tax. Maybe more with shipping and the cells close to $100 for 24. The packs I built cost at least $230 to build and were not designed for any hills then for a 250 pound person on an electric bike. Possibly double the cost or about $450 minimum in battery just to climb a little hill.

I thought it over and looked on you-tube and did NOT see the test that I am looking for concerning 18650 cells. Like I stated earlier the capacity of the cells is really not that important as long as it is > or = to 2,000. Discharge rate however means everything. How hot a 18650 cell gets during it's rated normal discharge is the most important variable. That variable will determine whether any 18650 cell is worth running in a real world application.

I know you no longer blame Vruzend, which is good, but you could be ruining the reputation of an eBay business, which is trying to make a modest living out of thin margins, and rely on a good rep to do so.

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I guess. However they could have said that a single kit like the one I bought is only suitable to replace a battery pack on a kids toy razor scooter with a 280 watt motor that comes standard in millions of toys. Obviously NOT suitable for a large adult on an electric bicycle.
It should have said in large bold lettering on the box what current each cap was rated for.

Back to testing. I am looking for a small thermometer which either attaches to the outside of an 18650 cell or wraps around a cell. That hooked to a digital display and put under the same real world discharge current which the cell is rated for would determine the SAFE ZONE that the cell can be discharged.

Product safety. Not rocket science and whatever 3 letter agency which covers product and consumer safety should govern such tests to make sure vendors who sell these products are NOT misleading the consumers to use these batteries in an unsafe manor by exceeding the discharge rate of a cell causing thermal runaway and possible fire.

It should not be that difficult to conduct such a test. Obviously it would be more important from a safety standard than capacity. However I do NOT see that such a test exists.

tomjasz claims to have sold hundreds or thousands of cells. I would like to have just one of those cells to test against one of mine and that would determine which LG cells are the genuine real deal.

I have read much on these types of cells and they are becoming popular for many e bike builders so my new testing methods could save a lot of builders time and heartache and possibly lives. Any further feedback on how I could start testing for discharge vs heat output would be greatly appreciated.

What I suspected was then in fact true and the VRUZEND kit was a waste of money as I am not a kid and do not own a razor scooter so the current limitations that you have made me aware of means that I need to go thru with my plan to throw every last piece into the trash and use the 1/4" magnets to attach a wire terminal and use a modest amount of high temperature JB weld to secure the magnet and terminal to each cell top and bottom when rebuilding the pack.

Moving on, I have some time before my BMSs arrive so would like any information possible how I could set up some tests current vs heat output. I need some way of measuring the cell temperature in degrees under load so I can at least compare the LG cells to the Wall-Mart Westinghouse cells and used laptop cells I currently have.

Then I can look around for different vendors and try to order single LG cells and other name brands to test and post the results right here on ES and on you-tube. That could help a lot of people. I can also do standard capacity tests while doing the videos. Thanks again and please get back to me on any possible test equipment which will measure the temperature from the outside of each cell case accurately. Thanks for your patience.

PS. I will go back and edit/erase my statements. Especially the one that Wtuber did not like. Hopefully then he can forgive me and stay on the post.

LC out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an9-i23mGqc&t=41s

Exactly what I was looking for. However scared to price a thermal camera. Still looking for a thermometer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HT-175-Imaging-32X32-Infrared-Thermal-Camera-Temperature-20-to-300-Degree-LOT-R/123108852898?hash=item1ca9dc04a2%3Am%3AmJek4pjEWoUXxY07nxU5dEg&var=423523781991

DA. Do you think this is an accurate tool and would work for what I want to do ? Please let me know.

LC out.


Plasic caps 3D printed. Must be an old post. magnets yes. Epoxy Probably not. plastic ? HELL NO

So, it’s now the vendors duty to calculate your battery needs. THIS is the biggest frustration I have with many folks these days. Poor research and planning skills. I made all the mistakes and have never blamed anyone for my failures. It makes for a happier, more learning intense, fun experience. eBikes reduce my frustration level and I made friends with those that know more, and more importantly I learn from. Another diatribe full of holes, misinformation and misguided blame.

You can test the power delivery capacity with a tool like this:

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Battery-Internal-Resistance-Meter-Lithium-Battery-Terminal-Voltage-Tester-allsun/122052277083?hash=item1c6ae1f35b:g:uYUAAOSwfpBaVwBw

The lower the resistance, the better the capability to deliver power. However, without understanding the maths behind it, all you could do is compare one cell with another. Since you don't understand basic Ohm's law, no point going any more advanced.

So, it’s now the vendors duty to calculate your battery needs. THIS is the biggest frustration I have with many folks these days. Poor research and planning skills. I made all the mistakes and have never blamed anyone for my failures. It makes for a happier, more learning intense, fun experience. eBikes reduce my frustration level and I made friends with those that know more, and more importantly I learn from. Another diatribe full of holes, misinformation and misguided blame.

Click to expand...

No

I will accept 50% or 1/2 responsibility for ordering batteries / kits which do not stand up to rated specs.

As far as the rest I feel it is important not just on a safety standard but also honesty that vendors do a quality control inspection to at least a 10% or 15% tolerance.

Discharge vs heat should be the first test done on 18650 cells and then a capacity test. Vendors who are the most disturbing are the ones who sell Ultrafire cells. The video on you tube made an interesting comment that if the name of the cell has the word fire in it that it will probably cause one.

Selling unprotected and overrated cells is not only dishonest but dangerous. All I am stating here is there needs to be some standards. I have not suffered any great loss here. Out of 48 cells at least 42 are still salvageable. I am simply stating that anyone who orders 18650 cells should be careful and don't make the mistakes I made. Test the cells for heat during discharge before assembling a pack especially if that pack is to be used indoors for solar back up or something like that.

This post not only can save someone a lot of money it could also save lives and property. As far as VRUZEND goes They should have build the pack better than 3.5 amps. 3.5 * 40 = 140 watts for a 10S pack and much less for a 6S pack. How many e bike builders out there are willing to spend $240 just on 6 of those kits to get 840 watts. Then another $600 on 18650 cells.

I actually believe that the 3.5 amp discharge to be accurate for the capacity of those caps as when I went 8 to 10 mph on the flat and coasted down hills they still were hot but did not burn my hand. I should have known better than to run two 6S - 24 cell packs in series up any hill with those caps. I destroyed a few cells but it still does not say anything positive for the quality of the product.

It is like I said. The VRUZEND kit would work ok for a 280 watt razor kids scooter. Millions are thrown our in the USA alone when the SLAs they come with fail. Middle class or wealthy folk often would rather replace the toy than order new SLA batteries. VRUZEND could make a lot of money by selling those kits to people as an option for SLAs. Two 24 volt 24 cell packs in parallel for 280 watts discharge with a BMS should not overheat on a kids scooter. Especially with a 50 to 80 pound kit and the gearing used.

I ordered a 60 watt soldering iron and do not plan on using the magnets. I am hoping to solder one of those connectors in the pic on my last post to each terminal. If it works I can throw out the VRUZEND kit and build two 20 cell 10S packs with a BMS to each pack. I am also considering two large fans for cooling.

I also plan to order the gun which measures temperature and test different cells for heat during different levels of discharge. I still plan on building future packs. 53V and perhaps 60 volts. I will be looking for different vendors on e bay and perhaps Amazon. I can order like one or two cells for testing before ordering a lot of 20 - 60 or more. Thanks.

LC out.

Of course, do destructive testing instead of planning, it's the LC way!

latecurtis said:

This post not only can save someone a lot of money it could also save lives and property. As far as VRUZEND goes They should have build the pack better than 3.5 amps. 3.5 * 40 = 140 watts for a 10S pack and much less for a 6S pack. How many e bike builders out there are willing to spend $240 just on 6 of those kits to get 840 watts. Then another $600 on 18650 cells.

Click to expand...

VRUZEND builds and advertises their product at 3.5A.
If it does not meet your needs, don't buy it!

10s4p would be 14A x "40V"(?) = 560w continuous use
20A x "40V"(?) = 800w surge use

Of course you still can't wrap your mind around the concept of motor input watts vs motor output watts ?

Especially with your overgeared motors, you might be drawing 2000w suffering up a hill at 10mph.
When a better geared ratio might only draw 1000w up the same hill at 15mph.

Of course, do destructive testing instead of planning, it's the LC way!

Click to expand...

If 1/2 the rated discharge of a single cell is destructive to save a major catastrophe with an entire pack then yes I can live with that. Also if I order a single cell from a vendor and find out it is not even 1/5 the capacity or discharge it was rated for then I will save a lot of time and money by NOT ordering 20 to 60 cells of the same.

Especially with your overgeared motors, you might be drawing 2000w suffering up a hill at 10mph.
When a better geared ratio might only draw 1000w up the same hill at 15mph.

Click to expand...

The motor was geared for 30 mph at 916 watts. It is slightly over geared. That motor ran best at 36 volts , 750 watts and 24 mph gearing. The same exact motor for the first 36 volt Currie upgrade. I do agree with you DA that it runs best at 36 volts and 2,250 rpm and 1 horsepower. I ran that with the Currie for almost two years I think.

As far as going up hills is concerned I will show you all how it is done and wont need 2,000 watts either. I already proved my method with the 20" bike with dual motors. I plan on building a second dual motor bike. The 800 watt 20" hub motor will go on the front and the 48V Unite motor we just discussed will go on the back.

Two controllers and two battery packs. The front motor will see > 800 watts and < 1,000 watts with 44V liPo and the rear will be 750 watts @ 36V so total power will be approx. 1,600 watts and will go up Crane st. hill. I will post the video when the time comes. Thanks.

LC out.

I'm gonna have to stop. Now LC thinks he's going to test a single cell and have a result valid for a pack.

Good luck. You're going to be burning money. The only question is whether thats literal or not.

I probably won't even need any more 18650 cells. Once I get my two BMSs and build two 20 cell 10S packs with the LG cells and WITHOUT the VRUZEND caps I will be good with 36 volts as I still have the SONA packs.

I will then order two 10.0 - 6S Multi stars instead of the cheaper e bay brands and should be good and ready for the new dual motor build.

I will post a video and pictures when I rebuild the two LG 18650 packs. Thanks.

LC out.