new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Yes you can run 20S or even 30S. I have done both. Programming determines whether it's safe. But I wouldn't run 20S on the stock controller. People have done it but you are at the edge of component voltage ratings. Not good for reliability.

Also I tried the ASI BAC2000 controller on this thing. The setup would be straightforward if there was better documentation although trying to autotune halls on the Cyclone is a ridiculous exercise I was never able to complete satisfactorily. I did run on sensorless which works well once you're going, but not from a stop. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get a "fast" throttle response even with torque ramp and power settings adjusted accordingly. The torque ramps up too smoothly / slowly. Overall this controller is not even close to being worth the money...even if all that stuff worked it's still very expensive for what it is and support is practically nonexistent.
 
flat tire said:
Yes you can run 20S or even 30S. I have done both. Programming determines whether it's safe. But I wouldn't run 20S on the stock controller. People have done it but you are at the edge of component voltage ratings. Not good for reliability.

Also I tried the ASI BAC2000 controller on this thing. The setup would be straightforward if there was better documentation although trying to autotune halls on the Cyclone is a ridiculous exercise I was never able to complete satisfactorily. I did run on sensorless which works well once you're going, but not from a stop. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get a "fast" throttle response even with torque ramp and power settings adjusted accordingly. The torque ramps up too smoothly / slowly. Overall this controller is not even close to being worth the money...even if all that stuff worked it's still very expensive for what it is and support is practically nonexistent.

If you get the ASI 800 from Luna with the kit, is it pretuned for the cyclone? Any better performance that way?
 
flat tire said:
Yes you can run 20S or even 30S. I have done both. Programming determines whether it's safe. But I wouldn't run 20S on the stock controller. People have done it but you are at the edge of component voltage ratings. Not good for reliability.

This is not necessarily true as of 2018.
I got a my cyclone 60A bluetooth controller from Paco, and the caps are now rated 100v up from 80v. Yes, it is shunt modded, and the controller thinks it is a 40A controller, also the amperage might not be very accurate. Don't know about the other models.

Also, people with the bluetooth controller, does it ever switch to something else than "operating mode: hall sensor"?
 
Compoundbike said:
Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery

My QS205 got great Wh / mile if I rode easy at a slower speed. If you're used to that motor you'll want too much from a Cyclone. The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

What I'm saying is riding style not motor determines range. And the Cyclone may not do any better than the 205, and you may burn it out at the same time!
 
You will get tired of shifting all the time after having a hub if you are worried about mileage.
 
flat tire said:
The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

That sounds like a phase assignment problem.
 
Chalo said:
flat tire said:
The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

That sounds like a phase assignment problem.

It is surprisingly competitive:

http://tangentmotors.com/tangentsdrive/
Spinning a Tangent gearbox unloaded at our full 12,500RPM requires less than 200W.

If course, we only need 4000-4500 motor rpm to reach max power but that is the tangent's problem.

Mind you cruising at 72v I found the 4kw cyclone is most efficient at around 20-40% of total rpm (depending on load), accelerating, yea, you better be 50-70%.
 
flat tire said:
Compoundbike said:
Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery

My QS205 got great Wh / mile if I rode easy at a slower speed. If you're used to that motor you'll want too much from a Cyclone. The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

What I'm saying is riding style not motor determines range. And the Cyclone may not do any better than the 205, and you may burn it out at the same time!


Im just unhappy with the 72V 23 ah battery going only 20 miles.. while power is limited to 750 watt.
 
Compoundbike said:
flat tire said:
Compoundbike said:
Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery

My QS205 got great Wh / mile if I rode easy at a slower speed. If you're used to that motor you'll want too much from a Cyclone. The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

What I'm saying is riding style not motor determines range. And the Cyclone may not do any better than the 205, and you may burn it out at the same time!


Im just unhappy with the 72V 23 ah battery going only 20 miles.. while power is limited to 750 watt.

That should be impossible if everything is set up correctly.

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

This page is pretty accurate to the real world.
Battery should last you around 2 hours at 750 watt. With 28mph, so traveled distance should be ~55 miles.

You need to check if the battery isn't fake/busted, if it is draining by itself (measure volts if it goes down while resting over a day or two). Should be ~84V hot off the charger and ~64 empty.
Also check the system after running it a bit if the battery, controller, or motor is hot, including the wires between all of them.
 
I may have fried my non-cyclone throttle trying to trouble shoot a no start. I know that the LVC is like 32V and I have 53.5V on it right now. So I was playing around with ignition cable, which goes to battery. I dont have the stock throttle/ignition/voltage-meter anymore. I use a Greentime left/right throttle.

I got it going, but it has an odd symptom happening. I have the 4kw model (higher amp controller).
If I touch the green and red throttle cables with black unconnected, the motor spins in the correct rotation.
Now if I lightly touch, it spins slowly and if I grab ahold tightly the motor spins faster.
I do have light new chain protectant on my hands. So its the resistance of my touching.
Isnt that just absolutely strange how I can touch the throttle wires and the motor spins.

The labels on the controller are clear and legible, but I have the red not wrapped around the throttle label. While the black and green are wrapped around the throttle cable.

I am going to try and find another new Greentime throttle and wire it up, and print out Justins throttle t/s guide.

edit - Another thing is I've never been able to actually use the Bluetooth feature. So I cant change the LVC.
 
markz said:
I may have fried my non-cyclone throttle trying to trouble shoot a no start. I know that the LVC is like 32V and I have 53.5V on it right now. So I was playing around with ignition cable, which goes to battery. I dont have the stock throttle/ignition/voltage-meter anymore. I use a Greentime left/right throttle.

I got it going, but it has an odd symptom happening. I have the 4kw model (higher amp controller).
If I touch the green and red throttle cables with black unconnected, the motor spins in the correct rotation.
Now if I lightly touch, it spins slowly and if I grab ahold tightly the motor spins faster.
I do have light new chain protectant on my hands. So its the resistance of my touching.
Isnt that just absolutely strange how I can touch the throttle wires and the motor spins.

The labels on the controller are clear and legible, but I have the red not wrapped around the throttle label. While the black and green are wrapped around the throttle cable.

I am going to try and find another new Greentime throttle and wire it up, and print out Justins throttle t/s guide.

edit - Another thing is I've never been able to actually use the Bluetooth feature. So I cant change the LVC.

The 4kw motor isn't the 3kw motor with a different controller. The 4kw motor is a separate motor with the same gearbox, it has 25% more torque because the stator is 25% wider and is 1kg heavier. It can be bought as a standalone or a crank axle version with the coaxial bike.
1800~3000W Brushless Motor
3000wdrewing1.jpg

2k-4kW Brushless Motor
1920-3000.jpg


The bluetooth app you can download from luna and the pass is 12345 or 123456789, my version is 4.0 2016/07/07.

The throttle wires are +5v red(sent out from the controller), GND black and green for signal(sent into the controller) that has an expencted range of input of about 1v to 4.5v. Yellow goes to voltage display if you have one and is live with the full battery voltage (72) it connects from the battery to the display and back to the ignition wire if you have the key version throttle. So if you touch the red and green it should spin full power or will not spin at all because of an out of range error. Connecting those two isn't the proper way to run it. As far as I know, you can use any +5v sources for the red throttle cable, for example the pas or the 3 way switch have +5v lines, same goes for the GND wire, they are all connected to the same pads inside the controller.
 
Scott76308 said:
Scott76308 said:
Wow!!! Up to 120 pages now. I think I have read about 80 in the past. I finally have my Cyclone build done and sorted out. It was a long road but I now have a kick ass 72v Cyclone full suspension Cannondale mountainbike. Has been done for a few months and I just haven't had time to play with it and have decided to put it up for sale. I hope putting this link is allowed, might be some valuable info in my extremely long add even if you don't want to purchase. It is on the Dallas TX Craigslist.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bik/d/ultra-fast-cannondale-bike/6602672085.html

PS I have decided that I will ship even though I don't have any idea how much that will cost yet.

I am now including Free Shipping to the lower 48 states. $2800 to your door.

Wow, sweet bike! What is that chain ring? Looks appropriately HD.
 
Chainring is an 1/8 inch fixie, bmx or single speed chainring made for heavy duty 1/8" non shifting chain. It is bolted to a spider made by sick bike parts specifically for the Cyclone.
 
Hello everybody!

Yet another cyclone build

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1530488557/331de7de/22323337.jpg

My bike is a 2008 fuji with 68 mm bottom bracket. I bought my kit from luna and overall, installation was not very difficult. I've added a bracket to the bottom tube to help keep the motor in place (it actually feels pretty solid on the kit supplied brackets alone). I also had fo modify the stock brackets a lil (some bending and grinding). I am using a 52 shark battery for now which is obviously a limitation right now. Despite the weak battery the motor still feels very strong. Compared to bbshd programmed to 1500w this kit has way more torque. Overall turned out an awesome bike for riding trails.
 
This is a downtube bottom bracket i am using, consists of two 2 inch frame brackets that i bought from sick bike parts, two 3.5 inch bolts, two nuts and two bent strips of metal from the hardware store (some tools neded: drill, 5 inch bench vise, angle grinder, hammer)

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1531008160/a0bae19c/22396579.jpg

Motor installed

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1531008422/acfa900c/22396587.jpg
 
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom
 
GIGATT said:
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom

If it moves a bit forward or backwards it could be a bad hall sensor.
 
Greetings, When the motor burns up is it rebuildable? does the same thing always burn up?

flat tire said:
So to contribute to the thread I burned out another motor a month ago and I have major news that may affect those of you with a flexing motor.

But first the burning.

Taking about 70-80 volts, this motor really is only suitable for ~1500 watts or so continuous. I ran over 6000 watts at first on 120v and while that bike was faster the motor died after 100 miles. The second one lasted a few hundred @ 60 amps battery 150 amps phase. Here's the problem, I've been riding mostly on the track / trails and I'm getting way faster. At first I wasn't really using my power so as to concentrate on carrying speed but now that I've advanced beyond low power momentum carrying exercises the limitations of the motor have become very apparent. Now I'm running only 40 amps battery, 100 amps phase and I still don't expect this motor to last more than a few hundred miles cuz my right wrist is only becoming less lenient.

:arrow: :arrow: Now major news for people with flexing drives
:arrow: :arrow:
A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.

Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!
 
OK thanks. I've heard that it can run without the hall sensor is that accurate?
When I get on the throttle the chain and motor pulsate.

Tommm said:
GIGATT said:
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom

If it moves a bit forward or backwards it could be a bad hall sensor.
 
GIGATT said:
Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!
[/quote]

Don't bother with the Cyclone HD mounts are junk, some stronger after market ones here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81711&p=1332185&hilit=cyclone#p1332185
 
GIGATT said:
OK thanks. I've heard that it can run without the hall sensor is that accurate?
When I get on the throttle the chain and motor pulsate.

Tommm said:
GIGATT said:
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom

If it moves a bit forward or backwards it could be a bad hall sensor.

You shouldn't keep trying it or you will have a bigger problem. It depends on the controller if it can do sensorless, but on a mid drive I would be surprised if it worked well.
 
GIGATT said:
Greetings, When the motor burns up is it rebuildable? does the same thing always burn up?

The coils burn out. If you want to rewind them, then yes the motor is very much rebuildable. Unfortunately it's a pain in the ass to get the old wire out, and then it's a standard rewind (tedious job requiring attention to detail).
 
Greetings,

Does this Hall sensor fix still work for you?

Is a new PCB board needed or are hall sensors located in the board?

Thank you for the info in advance.

[quoted=robocam post_id=1224666 time=1474429220 user_id=38182]
Hi, you can open the back cover by removing the 4 screws. Then gently tap the back off using a hammer and screwdriver. Tap a little at a time at different places around the back. Then do the same thing to the other side. You do not need to remove the pinion gear. I wiped off the blue grease with a glove and spread it over the plastic gears. Then I used a bunch of hex sockets to keep the other side open. The magnets will resist (you'll see what I mean when you try it).

I then used a radiator hose pick to remove the sensors. They're in there pretty tight. To install the new ones, just put them in place and use a couple wire ties to loosely hold the board in place. Paco said they don't need to be glued in.

file.php


file.php



jk1 said:
Robocam you changed your hall sensors, do you have any info or photos on how you do it ? where they glued into position ? and how did you get the motor open and change them ?
[/quote]
 
Greetings, this motor no longer works right?


DingusMcGee said:
At zero RPM and full throttle the motor heats up very fast if you have the amps. From my burned out C-3000 motor the places of burned varnish on the copper wires was not everywhere equal. The copper coil heated excessively, where due to extra thermal resistance the heat could not escape as readily as those areas having no covering over the coils. Compare a couple of photos for the difference of varnish burn with more insulation above the copper coils:

mod IMG_6750.jpg

mod IMG_6751.jpg

The places that heat up the most are called hot spots in electric motor life enhancement. A web article on motor heating & hot spots says to allow some 10 C to 20 C below insulation ratings for such places when setting a temp limit shut off. I think this means that if you place a thermistor not at a hot spot set shutoff temp lower by that amount. The lowest motor insulation rating for some American motor standard is 130 C. I know the Cromotor is advertised to take temps to 125 C -- are these hot spots? I haven't taken the plates off my Cromotor to see where they have placed the thermistor.

Potentially there are at least two materials that can be destroyed due to motor over heating: The copper wire varnish and the magnetism of the perm magnets. The Curie Temperature is the temperature that magnets lose their magnetism. From Wiki I see this temp can be less than 100 C for some magnets. The magnets on my overheated motor were still good but I had no idea at what temp the motor magnets got when the varnish was burned. I decided to further test the magnets to know what temperatures they could withstand. First I put the rotor in boiling water and no change was noticed in magnetic strength. Next I put the lid on the pressure cooker and got the magnets up to 250F but they were still good.

mod IMG_6749.jpg

250F = 121C for the magnets but since on my once hot motor the magnets showed no weakening while the varnish burned I suspect the Curie Temp of the magnets exceeds the copper wire varnish insulation temp max. Let's hope the Cyclone 3000 motor insulation temp is as good as the lower American Standard which is 130 C. To exceed the insulation temp a little bit does not mean catastrophic failure but a much shortened operating life. They suggest for an over temp: ... In fact, every 10 C rise in operating temperature reduces insulation life by half. .. Up to the threshold and then sudden death??

It would seem best to place the thermistor on a hot spot but the big plastic covered Grin thermistor cannot fit in many likely hot spots. The very small Kelly thermistor will fit under some of copper wire coils next to the steel laminations while the covered Grin thermistor will only fit next to the inside of the motor case -- not exactly where the hot spots are. The winding embedded in the slot is almost always the hottest part,... See:

http://www.plantengineering.com/single-article/when-it-comes-to-motors-how-hot-is-hot/f0db2fc5a645899e769740fa1ff7aed9.html

But it is not easy to get a thermistor in that place, so I put the small Kelly one under the Hall circuit board inside the copper wire loop.

Most interesting was the instant performance for this Kelly thermistor at this location: I set the Kelly Controller to a cutout temp of 96 C and recovery at 80 C. I set the CA V3 to the same temps. After riding 15 miles on smooth gravel [motor at about 30 C by Grin measurement] I got to a small patch of mud and proceeded thru what was mud with gravel. Soon the gravel got caught between the chain and sprockets and would locked the motor. Torque at zero rpm heats the motor quickly and on third gravel hangup the motor had no throttle response -- the Kelly temp cutout had kicked into too hot mode = 96C. To get out of this area [no trail] I had to ride up hill over wet dirt with clumps of grass which was a task the bike could not do for very long until overheating and stopping while then waiting for cooling. All this time the Grin thermistor was reading around 23 C. Once I got back to the gravel road the bike ran at 35 mph for 5 miles and no overheating shut down. On this section there were no instances of max torque at zero rpm. The Kelly controller does send a CAN BUS signal through it errors lights when motor temp reported by thermistor exceeds what you have set in the user program.

I have since moved my max temp allowable to 110C and recovery to 90C and realized the Grin Thermistor when covered in the OEM plastic sheath is worthless for this sensitive task.
 
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