Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
jcool3   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jun 18 2017 12:15pm
Location: san francisco

Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by jcool3 » Jul 13 2017 9:36am

Installing a 36V front wheel conversion kit on my mountain bike. I see many balancing LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs with
18650 cells on ebay for $30-40. 3 of these would supply 36v 13.2ah. Any reasons why this wouldn't work?
Any tips on installing and charging also appreciated.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2017-07-13 at 7.21.37 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-07-13 at 7.21.37 AM.png (78.24 KiB) Viewed 3912 times

ultralight001   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 25
Joined: Feb 15 2017 1:38pm
Location: Hood River, OR

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by ultralight001 » Jul 16 2017 2:27pm

I bought some of these packs. They are high quality and are easy to link together. You will have to charge them individually now and then though.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9452
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by Hillhater » Jul 16 2017 4:21pm

read here....half way down page 3..
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1304320
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

docw009   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 895
Joined: Aug 02 2015 7:43am
Location: Chicago area suburbs.

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by docw009 » Jul 17 2017 12:09am

In that other link, I don't know if he really did the charge capacity test. I think he plotted a curve using a Samsung spec sheet. I have an LG and Samsung unit from that ebay guy. They are not 4.4AH, but are more like 3.5AH, measured at 120 and 140 watt-hr. The pack have a low voltage cutoff around 33-34 volts though which accounts for less useable power.

I don't ride very fast (12.7 mph) and use less than 8 watt-hr/mile. So 15 miles is easy for me. Someone riding faster might use 15 watt-hr/mile and won't get 10 miles. They're not high capacity. My 10S-3P battery with GA cells has over useable 300 watt-hr, but it cost me $250.

My watt-meter says I can pull 16 amps out of one battery when it's freshly charged. Doing that later will sag it below LVC and the BMS cuts out.

If you put three or more in parallel, it might be a good idea to use diodes in the harness. Also, you will have to charge them separately, and that's 2-3 hours each in sequence.

They're still hover board batteries though. I only charge them outdoors and keep them in a fireproof container when not on the bike. They're nice for a stealth look on my ebike with a small hub motor, with a battery under the seat, but only if they don't burst into flames when riding.

Doing the cost comparison, if you need three or four of these plus a charger, you're at $180. It's not much more to get an ebike battery. I don't mind playing with one or two of these, because I l already have a charger and some nice batteries. I wouldn't want these as my main bike batteries.

jcool3   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jun 18 2017 12:15pm
Location: san francisco

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by jcool3 » Jul 17 2017 12:46am

Thanks for the precautions. I managed to snag 3 packs at $25 each. Might need to get one more. If they need
to be charged individually, what basic charger would work?

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9452
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by Hillhater » Jul 17 2017 2:05am

docw009 wrote:...... They are not 4.4AH, but are more like 3.5AH, measured at 120 and 140 watt-hr..
you cannot say they are not 4.4Ah packs unless you check the same way as the manufacturer.
Most manufacturiers test capacity at 0.2C discharge...which would be 0.9 A, or about 33 watts discharge rate on this pack, all the way down to their recommended min voltage.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

docw009   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 895
Joined: Aug 02 2015 7:43am
Location: Chicago area suburbs.

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by docw009 » Jul 17 2017 8:59am

Actually, getting 120 and 140 effective watt-hrs out of these batteries made me happy. That's 80% of the nominal, which is about what my other batteries will do. I'll remain happy if they don't blow up. Mechanically, they look like they could get dented easily. I wrapped them in extra shrink wrap with some padding around the BMS and welds.

hppav   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 16
Joined: Jun 13 2017 11:32pm

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by hppav » Aug 04 2017 7:05am

jcool3 wrote:Thanks for the precautions. I managed to snag 3 packs at $25 each. Might need to get one more. If they need
to be charged individually, what basic charger would work?
can't charge them all at once?
have you tried?

Jammied   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 20
Joined: May 22 2016 8:02pm

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by Jammied » Aug 05 2017 10:50pm

I believe one of these would work good for using them in parallel

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-RC-XT-60-Ba ... 1438.l2649

would just have to use connector of your choice into the controller from the harness.

And these chargers are cheap

http://www.ebay.com/itm/42V-2A-AC-DC-Po ... SwaB5XjJTO

Might be low out put for 5 of the packs in parallel ?

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2186
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Aug 30 2017 4:11pm

I just picked up four of these packs also. Planning to use one for a razor scooter build and the other three on my commuter bike at 10s hoping they are decent if the pack bms cuts them out at 34v i will rip the bms out of them and combine to one pack. Lets see how they do first though ofc

jcool3   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jun 18 2017 12:15pm
Location: san francisco

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by jcool3 » Aug 31 2017 12:23pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2w5Ka2oNv8

Richard LLoyd NEW LG 36V Ebay BATTERY PACK 18650 Thorough Review (Great Value) For Ebike Vape Harvest Powerwall

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2186
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Aug 31 2017 7:06pm

I didnt think it was possible to talk about a 10s battery that long! Holy crap does he go in depth

docw009   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 895
Joined: Aug 02 2015 7:43am
Location: Chicago area suburbs.

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by docw009 » Aug 31 2017 11:09pm

Lot of depth , but at the end of the day, actually several days later, he's not sure if his initial assertion about the packs not having a balance BMS is correct. He does show that the LVC is around 27 volts, so my controllers must have been shutting mine off at 34 volts. It also seems the cells are not glued together? At least the top 4 pop off.

I bought two more Samsung units. I took one down to controller shutoff and measured 4.1 AH. I retract my statement of 3.4-3,8 AH. (I had used WH previously, and it was never consistent. ) This was under ebike operation, albeit on a 250W motor burning about .2AH per mile. When recharged, 4.1 AH went back into it. I could believe there's another .2AH in them if I wanted to risk running down to 26 volts. The packs will deliver 20A, which is the rated capacity for a 2P using 10A cells.

About that ebay harness. XT60 connectors are cheap. I made a 2:1 parallel harness for under a buck. When I use them in parallel, I recharge them that way too. Avoids the issue of connecting two packs at different voltages. Still charging outdoors and storing in the ammo box. Also shrink wrapped them. They could still blow up.

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2186
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Sep 02 2017 6:17pm

Well im glad they are testing out at the full 4.4ah maybe i only need to use two instead of three and use the third only for longer rides

jcool3   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jun 18 2017 12:15pm
Location: san francisco

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by jcool3 » Sep 24 2017 11:15pm

Used 3 of those battery packs on my 36V 500 watt rear hub motor kit. So far they work great. They charge up to

42.4V on my charger.

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2186
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Sep 25 2017 11:26am

I used three in parallel this weekend on my Genesis direct drive and easily put 12 miles on without worry. They are a really good deal for low power applications

hppav   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 16
Joined: Jun 13 2017 11:32pm

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by hppav » Sep 25 2017 11:48am

skeetab5780 wrote:I used three in parallel this weekend on my Genesis direct drive and easily put 12 miles on without worry. They are a really good deal for low power applications
your controller is 36v?
have you tried 2 in series (72v) in a 72v controller?
i'm wondering if the bms would cause problems.

i too have parallel them, but not sure of series connection.

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2186
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Sep 25 2017 12:42pm

Ya my controller is programmable so I could try them at 72v for kicks if I needed to, I have other batteries for that usually tho

Will get around to that soon and let you know

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1481
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by wturber » Sep 25 2017 1:37pm

I'm using between four and seven of these on my bike depending on the configuration I'm trying at the time. I really like the idea of being able to add more packs as needed.

So far, the batteries seem seem to work well. The obvious limitation is that they are 36V. I'm using a DC-DC boost converter to boost the voltage from 36v nominal to 54v. This drives a 1000 watt 48v hub motor. The controller is rated 13A , but has 26A maximum draw. I had to dial back amperage it would draw to 80% using the LCD display in order to keep the system from cutting out at full throttle. Nonetheless, my power monitor shows that the system pulls a max of 35A and 1250 watts from the battery when measured on the battery side of the booster. When measuring on the boosed motor side, the max amperage is around 22A with a peak wattage of about 1175. The wattage difference reflects a loss of about 6% under peak demands.

With five of these charged to 41V, I'm able to round trip to work and back a distance of 32 miles over moderately hilly terrain. I pedal assist and typically cruise at about 20mph.

I'm currently trying different configurations and speeds to get a better handle on how much usable power I can get per pack. I'd like to hit an average cruising speed closer to 25mph. Right now my impression is that these packs don't perform well once they drop below about 36V. So that means that drawing that last 30-40% of power from them might be an issue for what I'm doing, which includes climbing hills when the batteries are discharged to well below the halfway mark. But I'm not yet sure if that's a fault of the battery, or if maybe the low voltage cut-toff of the battery booster is kicking in. I'm also not trusting my power meter 100%. I hope to sort this out this week.

BTW, I can confirm that the BMS on these packs will protect the pack voltage from dropping below 28V. That's slightly above the LG recommended minimum voltage. With a constant draw of about 35 watts, they do deliver their full capacity.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2186
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Sep 27 2017 10:12am

These actually work pretty good at 72v

threw two packs in series and let them sit for a day since I was busy, then today I put them on the bike and it spun the rear wheel at 72v speeds! no issues

wish I had these packs a year ago when I was building the FUTR Beta it would have been so easy

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1481
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by wturber » Oct 01 2017 7:47pm

I ran a discharge test on one of these 10s 2P LG hoverboard packs a few days ago. Per the spec sheet, each cell has a nominal rating of 2.150 Ah and should deliver a minimum of 2.050 Ah. The spec sheet give a "standard discharge" of 0.2C or 430mA.

I discharged the cell through two Halogen lamps that were fed by a 12V DC-DC converter. There were also a couple LEDs that were pulling some small bit of power. This resulted in a fairly constant draw of between 35 and 36 watts with a draw that ranged from 840mA to 1230mA depending on the voltage supplied by the batteries. This is a little bit more than the "standard discharge" in the spec sheet.

The lights stayed lit for 4hr and 22 minutes before the BMS shut down the battery. That happened at a battery voltage of 28.49V, about 1V above the specified low voltage cuttoff. The total amp hours delivered by then was 4.184 or 2.094 per cell. That is slightly below the nominal rating, but above the specified minimum. Seems perfectly acceptable given that the discharge wasn't exactly per their "standard discharge" spec.

The real world, useful voltage range probably extends only to 34V. After that, the voltage drops off rapidly. Likewise, the real world capacity is closer to something like 4Ah.
BatteryPack_amp_draw_html_m77357415.jpg
BatteryPack_amp_draw_html_m77357415.jpg (149.33 KiB) Viewed 1931 times
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

jcool3   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jun 18 2017 12:15pm
Location: san francisco

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by jcool3 » Oct 14 2017 1:09am

Most of the time my 3 battery packs run from 42.4V down to 38V during the course of a day. This is for my ebay 36V 500 watt rear hub motor on mountain bike. Does anyone know if running 42V on this 36V system is bad for the motor? The BMS allows these
battery packs to be charged up to 42.4V - does this shorten battery life? I'm a newbie to ebikes, would like knowledgeable members
to chime in.

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1481
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by wturber » Oct 14 2017 4:42am

jcool3 wrote:Most of the time my 3 battery packs run from 42.4V down to 38V during the course of a day. This is for my ebay 36V 500 watt rear hub motor on mountain bike. Does anyone know if running 42V on this 36V system is bad for the motor? The BMS allows these
battery packs to be charged up to 42.4V - does this shorten battery life? I'm a newbie to ebikes, would like knowledgeable members
to chime in.
A nominal 36 volt Li Ion pack will normally range from a high of 42 volts to a low of maybe 34-35 volts through the life of its charge. The 36 volts rating is supposed to be the approximate average voltage as a battery goes from "full" to "empty" even though it seems like the real average is closer to 37 volts.
This is a graph of the full discharge of one of my 36v LG packs over about four hours of time.
BatteryPack_amp_draw_html_m77357415.jpg
BatteryPack_amp_draw_html_m77357415.jpg (149.33 KiB) Viewed 1931 times

Charging a 10s (36v nominal voltage) Li Ion battery pack to 42.4 volts will almost surely shorten its life. I charge mine to 41 volts precisely for the purpose of extending the battery life. Some people charge to only 40.5 volts. The longer a Li Ion battery sits at higher voltages, the worse it is for the battery. Some people will charge to a level below 42 volts like I mentioned above, and will do a short charge up to 42 volts right before riding.


You might want to read this article to get a better sense of things.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 677
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by robocam » Jul 11 2018 4:23pm

I bought 10 of those LG 36V 4.4Ah packs, and I'm finally getting around to putting them to use. When I measure the voltage at the XT-60 connector, it reads zero volts but when I measure on the circuit board, it reads 34.9V. Does this mean that the BMS has cut off the power? I'm going to try charging one of them with my ebike 36V charger to see what happens.

To those that have purchased those packs, did yours read zero volts at the connector?

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1481
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Are Scooter LG 36V 4.4AH battery packs good for Ebike?

Post by wturber » Jul 11 2018 4:43pm

robocam wrote:
Jul 11 2018 4:23pm
I bought 10 of those LG 36V 4.4Ah packs, and I'm finally getting around to putting them to use. When I measure the voltage at the XT-60 connector, it reads zero volts but when I measure on the circuit board, it reads 34.9V. Does this mean that the BMS has cut off the power? I'm going to try charging one of them with my ebike 36V charger to see what happens.

To those that have purchased those packs, did yours read zero volts at the connector?
Did you check voltages when the packs came in?

Mine had normal voltages with one exception. That one read very low voltages and I got a percentage refund on that pack that I applied to purchasing a replacement. Many months later I wanted to see if I could revive the pack, but the BMS would not let me. So I bypassed the BMS and charged the cells directly at a very low current level. I forget what level, but it was milliamps, not amps. Once the voltage got up to around 33 volts, I let the pack sit for a few days to see if it was stable. I also spot-checked to see if all the cells were the same voltage, and they were. So I then charged the pack to full at a low rate of about 1 amp. I haven't really used the pack much nor have I wired the BMS back in. But all indications are that the cells are now fine and that they discharge and charge at normal rates.
Last edited by wturber on Jul 12 2018 9:43am, edited 1 time in total.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

Post Reply