New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 13 2018 10:42pm

New people to the thread - lol :) I'm glad we joined in when we did, I think there was only 65 pages or so back then and it was a real chore to read through it all. If I had to start over again I think I would rather walk! I think the cat is already out of the bag though. Perhaps eventually someone will make a new thread and condense everything into a well organized pdf. Maybe they will even call it the TSDZ2 "handbook" and print 1000's of copies so Tongshen can ship copies with the motors (since they don't even send one scrap of paper with their kits, not even a diagram of how it goes together).

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 13 2018 11:02pm

Hi, I just did the install and it works. I agree about keeping the open source firmware on the dedicated thread Endless Sphere thread: "TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor"
Timelord wrote:
Jul 13 2018 10:00pm
I find the open firmware development intriguing, but is there any way the discussion of it can be shifted over to the other topic that casainho started for it? This general topic for the TSDZ2 has become overrun with that discussion, which may give new readers the impression that hacking the motor software is an unavoidable requirement and turn them off the product. Those interested in just buying and riding with the TSDZ2 rather than modifying it may find their eyes glazing over after page after page of uber-technical software discussion. Since there's already another topic for the technical aspects of that, it doesn't make sense to keep the discussion in this topic.
At 109 pages it has been pretty hard to glean information. This is my first ebike so it is all new.

Would it be a good idea to have a TDSZ2 Technical Reference Topic? It could cover all basic information in an organized way? People could fact check the information and keep it accurate and up to date?

As a long-time cyclist and mechanical guy the installation was pretty clean. The mechanical design so far seems solid. But before I bought the kit there were definitely some basics that would be good to know. For example the chainline is 51mm (chainline is about the chainwheel being centered side to side on the rear cluster, google 'sheldon brown chainline' for details). That is reasonable, 45mm is standard for derailleur road bikes and 50mm for derailleur mountain bikes. But the chainline is only 51mm because the 42 tooth stock chainwheel is dished 5mm. That means that even though the chainring spider is 110mm bolt circle diameter (a common bicycle standard) you really should stick with the 42 tooth stock chainring. A standard chainring on the inside position has a 56mm chainline, a double puts the larger chainring at 61mm really not usable especially because a mid-drive adds stress to the chain and derailleur system. Not a huge deal but good to know.

There are other items like this, not very obvious before the purchase. And a TDSZ2 Technical Reference Topic area could give us all an alternative to scanning so many pages.

If people show a lot of interest i'll look at what is involved setting up a Technical Reference topic.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jul 13 2018 11:24pm

TomTom, it really all depends on when the back of the gear reduction housing hits the chain stay. I have put on quite a few TSD's and you lucked out getting a 51mm chainline on your first try. I had to fit another 42t chain ring on mine because although I didn't measure it the chainline in my 42t in the back was too much for my taste, especially as I do a lot of steep climbs. Lines up perfect with the middle cog on the cassette now. You can go too far though and the ring will hit the nylon cover.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jul 14 2018 12:41am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jul 13 2018 1:07pm
Yes, the low end does not seem to do squat! I have been keeping track of my power consumption. If I ride about 2.75 miles I consume about 5v of power with a nearly full charged batter (56.5-51.5v). If I run the battery down to 42v (when the battery bms shuts it down) I only get maybe 5.5-6 miles total. So I am getting about the same distance out of the top 5v that I do for the bottom 10v.
As eyebyesickle said, battery capacity is not linear across the whole voltage range.
This can vary enormously depending on the type of cell chemistry used.
Look at some of poster "darkangle" threads on capacity mapping in the Battery Tech section, for details.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=54202&hilit=Capaci ... e&start=25
But also, the TSDZ2 lvc certainly does work.
On my "48v " system , below approx 41v, the controller cuts performancr to a cadence of 1.0 rpm...basicly walking pace,. or less,..
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by KD5ZXG » Jul 14 2018 2:12am

Perhaps for a dumb pack, that much safety margin is reasonable.
For a smart pack that knows when the weakest cell approaches
2.5V, a 41V or even 42V cutoff is much too conservative.

(4000) contains a value that I suspect is undervoltage lockout.
The value stored at (4000) in Eyebicycle's screenshot is 0x57h.
If the same 0.4V per increment scale as (4001) nominal voltage.
I interpret this as 34.8V pack Volts, 2.67V per cell. Which may
be a threshold of complete shutdown for a nominal 48V pack.

You observed cadence drop at 41V. So where did it get that
from? Was it calculated from nominal, undervoltage lockout,
or stored elsewhere we just don't know where to look yet???

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AZUR » Jul 14 2018 4:43am

Hi,

I opened my Display VLCD5 to see it´s internal electronics. After I closed it and now it doesn't works anymore.

I know the problem its the VLCD5 and not the motor because I tested with a friend of mine VLCD5 and everything works.

Anyone can advise me what to do?

There is any reset function on the display?

Anyone in Portugal has one to sell ?

thanks

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Jul 14 2018 5:41am

AZUR wrote:
Jul 14 2018 4:43am
Anyone can advise me what to do?
Well, I've just found recently that the motor can work without the LCD as well. It will use the default values, but still better than nothing.
I've felt it has about level 3 or 4 assist as default value. Motor can be switched on by short two pins. I did it with a jumper and 2 PCB pins at cable connector.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 14 2018 9:52am

I know a few of you have experimented with running the 48v motor on a 36v battery. How did it work for you? Was the cadence too slow for cruising, I assume it is probably good for hill climbing? I am thinking about trying a 10s2p configuration, and perhaps bumping up the amps a bit (maybe 20 or 22a?). I wanted to hook 3 batteries together to make a 15s2p battery but I only was able to get 2 so far, and now I am finding out that there is a glitch with the bms's when multiple bms batteries are hooked up in a series. I would just build one battery with a new bms from the packs but until I move to Europe I need to leave this batteries intact for air travel.

I am starting to see eyebicycles point of the large spread between hvc and lvc. I would love to run both my 52v battery and my 36v battery when I need additional range!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 9:55am

AWD wrote:
Jul 13 2018 11:24pm
TomTom, it really all depends on when the back of the gear reduction housing hits the chain stay. I have put on quite a few TSD's and you lucked out getting a 51mm chainline on your first try. I had to fit another 42t chain ring on mine because although I didn't measure it the chainline in my 42t in the back was too much for my taste, especially as I do a lot of steep climbs. Lines up perfect with the middle cog on the cassette now. You can go too far though and the ring will hit the nylon cover.
Hi, In my case the gear reduction did not hit the chainstay. The unit seated against the bottom bracket just as the reduction almost touched the chainstay, less than 1mm clearance. I suspect many aluminum frames there would be interference because the tube diameter is larger. I imagine you needed to shim at the bottom bracket, increasing the chainline still further?

In that case an option seems to be to shim the 42T chainring in with 10mm inside diameter washers, but it looks to me like you could gain only 1mm or so.

And then somehow you would need a chainring dished more than 5mm? I'm not following how you bring chainring back in if you have to shim at the bottom bracket.

It looks to me like I was lucky with my fit, that Tongshin designed tightly to a steel frame with 68mm bottom bracket, that the gear reduction is wide enough so chainline is OK only with a steel frame and 68mm bottom bracket?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 10:00am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jul 13 2018 10:42pm
New people to the thread - lol :) I'm glad we joined in when we did, I think there was only 65 pages or so back then and it was a real chore to read through it all. If I had to start over again I think I would rather walk! I think the cat is already out of the bag though. Perhaps eventually someone will make a new thread and condense everything into a well organized pdf. Maybe they will even call it the TSDZ2 "handbook" and print 1000's of copies so Tongshen can ship copies with the motors (since they don't even send one scrap of paper with their kits, not even a diagram of how it goes together).
Would a TDSZ2 topic in the technical reference section work work for condensed and organized information?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 14 2018 10:04am

tomtom50 wrote:
Jul 14 2018 9:55am
Hi, In my case the gear reduction did not hit the chainstay. The unit seated against the bottom bracket just as the reduction almost touched the chainstay, less than 1mm clearance. I suspect many aluminum frames there would be interference because the tube diameter is larger. I imagine you needed to shim at the bottom bracket, increasing the chainline still further?

In that case an option seems to be to shim the 42T chainring in with 10mm inside diameter washers, but it looks to me like you could gain only 1mm or so.

And then somehow you would need a chainring dished more than 5mm? I'm not following how you bring chainring back in if you have to shim at the bottom bracket.

It looks to me like I was lucky with my fit, that Tongshin designed tightly to a steel frame with 68mm bottom bracket, that the gear reduction is wide enough so chainline is OK only with a steel frame and 68mm bottom bracket?
Mine actually lines up well too, especially with the stock offset chainring. I think if it does not line up though another option might be to offset the cassette. How many gears do we need anyway. I think 7 or 8 gears spread wide is more than enough. There is just no market catering to us yet. If companies would start building 8spd offset wide ratio cassettes (an 11 speed with the 3 innermost cogs removed) it would probably be useful to those with chainstay issues.

We are trying to utilize bike parts, but we are putting out 1000w of power with a motor and our legs and bikes were not designed for that. Close ratio gearing drove me nuts when I tried a smaller chainring, and I don't need to use the larger one but at least it widens out the gears a bit.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 14 2018 10:08am

tomtom50 wrote:
Jul 14 2018 10:00am

Would a TDSZ2 topic in the technical reference section work work for condensed and organized information?
You got me, maybe one of the site admins can make suggestions. I think it would be great to have something like that, especially if it were a locked thread where only reference info and no commentary could be posted. I suggested a while ago that this thread get an index (good luck finding it though) with page numbers to important info, like all the bearing part numbers that are on page 104. :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 10:38am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jul 14 2018 10:08am
tomtom50 wrote:
Jul 14 2018 10:00am

Would a TDSZ2 topic in the technical reference section work work for condensed and organized information?
You got me, maybe one of the site admins can make suggestions. I think it would be great to have something like that, especially if it were a locked thread where only reference info and no commentary could be posted. I suggested a while ago that this thread get an index (good luck finding it though) with page numbers to important info, like all the bearing part numbers that are on page 104. :)
On the Endless Sphere main page by Technical Reference area it says "Archive of useful information. This is not a discussion area"

So it seems like the content can be logically organized

I do not see a "new Topic" button, there might be rules or permissions needed to make a new topic.

The idea is that it be a reliable guide, revised for accuracy, and organized by function. Here are some manin sections I can imagine

Technical Specification (dimensions, gear reduction, winding information, torque sensor info, variations (LCD displays available, etc)

Mechanical installation (pictures and issues that arise)

Basic LCD settings (guide for the stock LCDs and how to set)

Service (how to disassemble, brass gear)

Open Source firmware (added functions available, how to connect, setting differences for 36V/48V/52V)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 12:09pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 17 2017 9:04pm
48v = 4000rpm motor
52v = 4500rpm motor

RICKY BOBBY :lol:

http://recycles-ebike.com/tsdz-series/1 ... brake.html
I have a high cadence (105 rpm). Reading this thread indicated there are only two windings, 36V and 48V. So the only difference between a 48V and 52V unit is the voltage settings. Or so I thought, so I bought a 52V unit to get the right voltage settings in firmware and get 4500 rather than 4000 rpm.With a 41.4 overall ratio 4000 rpm is 97 rpm cadence, 4500 is 108 rpm cadence.

And unlike the photos eyebyesickle took (viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=1125#p1320280) my label reads 52V 4000rpm.
52V - 4000 rpom motor.jpg
52V - 4000 rpom motor.jpg (239.51 KiB) Viewed 973 times
Has Tongshin added a 52V winding? Or did they just change the label to read the same rpm even though that would not be true if it is the same winding? Does anyone know?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 12:39pm

echew wrote:
May 25 2018 3:17pm
Speady wrote:
May 25 2018 5:41am
There has been several complaints already, as the TSDZ2 offers both, a huge Q- factor and the crankarms not centered to the middle of the bike frame. A single crankarm is only $10.
Ah ok, and the bafang is the only crankarm that will fit this? Just asking as they're not readily available in my country and would have to order in specifically.
Speady wrote:
May 25 2018 5:41am
A dual front chainring would worsen the already bad chainline. Let alone the hassle to find a suitable front derailleur.
Is there anything that can be done about improving the chainline?
The 42 tooth chainwheel on my unit is dished 5mm to improve the chainline.
Dished side.jpg
Dished side.jpg (29.02 KiB) Viewed 972 times
dished.jpg
dished.jpg (74.13 KiB) Viewed 972 times
It looks to me like some earlier units did not have a dished chainwheel, see https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 5#p1320280 and the factory picture https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 5#p1191169.

Is this true? Did some of you get units shipped with flat chainrings?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 3:50pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 11 2018 12:49am
Hi,

I know some people have had problems with '52v' units not actually being 52v etc... I drafted up a little programming manual for someone, maybe more people can get some use from it. It goes from making the programming cable, to installing and configuring the software (for windows) to the actual programming. Nothing fancy, just voltage and amps... Hopefully it is somewhat helpful to someone. Let me know how bad it sucks! :lol: :wink: I suppose I could've done a video - I probably should do both...

PDF below but the pics are small and you need to view at over 100%. I also added it to the blog/instructional, where it is formatted a bit better:

https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... romscratch
Eyebyesickle, Thanks! I just installed my 52V TSDZ2 and it worked great with... the battery as I received it. So I charge it up after my first 25 miles and nothing. I saw enough on the thread to indicate I may have a mis-programmed unit (the Tongshin label says 52V) so I discharged it using a tungsten lamp. Finally, after getting the pack down to 55.1V it works again. And shows all bars as if it is fully charged.

I didn't really want to get into the settings yet, but at least I have a good guide.

Verified. Some "52V" units
52V - 4000 rpom motor.jpg
52V - 4000 rpom motor.jpg (55.4 KiB) Viewed 958 times
Aren't. They need the firmware values corrected.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 14 2018 5:04pm

TS had sold me some 'stock' 52v 4500rpm units, but that was only the first batch, then it was back to 52v....

Where are these bad 52v units coming from?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 14 2018 5:06pm

Also, I need to confirm, but I think my doc needs editing.... That was an old TS value chart... I looked at my saved profiles, and I use '83' for 52v, not 82. I think you need 83 or it won't run at full 58.8... waiting to confirm and I'll edit it

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jul 14 2018 7:38pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 14 2018 5:04pm
TS had sold me some 'stock' 52v 4500rpm units, but that was only the first batch, then it was back to 52v....

Where are these bad 52v units coming from?
I bought mine from https://www.dhgate.com/product/new-vers ... 67694.html
seems to be storefront for auto_ebike.

BTW I just ordered a speed sensor extension cable from Eco Cycles which I think is your store. I'll use it to re-program following your instructions.

I knew 48V could be converted to 52V, and 48V costs less, but I thought I'd get 52V, pay a little more, and not have to bother figuring out how to adjust the firmware settings right off the bat. Oh well.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 14 2018 8:40pm

Ah, DHgate-autoebike, gotcha. I do business with them and they are a good company, but as with any international supplier, things can get messy if something goes wrong, and lately there has been a few bad controllers sent out by TS. I'm making a rig to test all the 6 pin no throttle models to avoid any problems before sending out... Not as easy as just testing the throttle real quick with the 8 pin... Although 95% of any problems I see are with the 8 pin and not 6 pin...

I can't get a visual on the problem with any if the removed controllers, but I'd highly suspect that either they used too much solder and bridged two ports, or there is a loose connection. (In general, not with the above users controller, which seems to be a programming issue as mentioned below) I'm talking to TS about wiring the controllers with an extra couple of inches of wire, so there is plenty of spare wire to make a knot before the wires exit the housing, so if the wires get pulled, it tugs the knot, NOT directly from the controller/ports. Even though the wires are sealed in there, they can still slide if pulled hard enough, and the force goes straight to the controller.... I've seen where the shortest wire (first to catch the force of the pull) gets disconnected from the controller for sure twice. The other bad controllers I assume is the port issue, but I'm not sure, maybe I can do some continuity testing and see if I can notice two wires internally connected.

I even came across one unit that seemed to be filled with some sort of oil upon opening for service. I wondered at first if someone had experiemented with oil filling this motor... It was a mess. Once I got it all apart, I realized the 'oil' was actually what seemed to be a bad mix of potting compound that never dried/cured. It was a MESS. Once I removed the controller and cleaned everything up, I noticed the controller didn't have a 'PASS' inspection sticker! Hah, how did that make it off the line!!

Also, lately it seems some of these (52v) units being sent out have what seems to be the wrong programming, as opposed to a hardware issue... So hopefully we can get this straightened out for people, because I know how much it sucks to order some stuff and have it not work.!!!! Ugh

P.S. - just call me Captain Obvious hahah

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 14 2018 9:46pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Jul 14 2018 7:38pm

BTW I just ordered a speed sensor extension cable from Eco Cycles which I think is your store. I'll use it to re-program following your instructions.
Thanks for the heads-up, we too are in for a programming cable to use with eyebyesickle's voltage programming guide :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jul 14 2018 10:05pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Jul 14 2018 9:52am
I know a few of you have experimented with running the 48v motor on a 36v battery. How did it work for you? Was the cadence too slow for cruising, I assume it is probably good for hill climbing? I am thinking about trying a 10s2p configuration,

I am starting to see eyebicycles point of the large spread between hvc and lvc. I would love to run both my 52v battery and my 36v battery when I need additional range!
i posted this a day or so ago,..
The 48v units seem to have a LVC setting at around 41-42v .
So even a fully charged 10s pack likely wont reach that level, and even if it does, any load will cause the pack voltage to drop below 41v almost instantly.
With a 41v pack the lvc limits the cadence to about 1.0 (ONE)rpm ...hardly enough for a walking pace !
So,..yes many of us would like to be able to open up those lvc--hvc settings to about 30v and 60v !..
......and Enable the power setting feature in the display program settings , so we can adjust the amp limit !
Eyebyesickle...
..have you asked TS why that power setting function does not work ?..
..and what it would take to enable it ?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jul 14 2018 10:12pm

feketehegyi wrote:
Jul 12 2018 3:09pm
Poor man's cable connector. "Purple" pin (central) is hidden, but probably with the "no throttle" version I would not need.
Very useful..
Can you confirm which pins in the controller cable plug you are connecting which cable colors to ?
Thanks
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 14 2018 10:13pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 14 2018 10:05pm

i posted this a day or so ago,..
The 48v units seem to have a LVC setting at around 41-42v .
So even a fully charged 10s pack likely wont reach that level, and even if it does, any load will cause the pack voltage to drop below 41v almost instantly.
With a 41v pack the lvc limits the cadence to about 1.0 (ONE)rpm ...hardly enough for a walking pace !
So,..yes many of us would like to be able to open up those lvc--hvc settings to about 30v and 60v !..
......and Enable the power setting feature in the display program settings , so we can adjust the amp limit !
Eyebyesickle...
..have you asked TS why that power setting function does not work ?..
..and what it would take to enable it ?
I meant the people that have edited the controller firmware with the st-link v2 using the 36v settings. Thus the 48v engine will accept a battery from I assume 43v down to probably like 30v or so. The difference though is that the 48v engine has a 48v motor winding and thus it will run slower (and with more torque) than the 36v motor winding.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jul 15 2018 1:43am

tomtom50 wrote:
Jul 14 2018 9:55am
AWD wrote:
Jul 13 2018 11:24pm
TomTom, it really all depends on when the back of the gear reduction housing hits the chain stay. I have put on quite a few TSD's and you lucked out getting a 51mm chainline on your first try. I had to fit another 42t chain ring on mine because although I didn't measure it the chainline in my 42t in the back was too much for my taste, especially as I do a lot of steep climbs. Lines up perfect with the middle cog on the cassette now. You can go too far though and the ring will hit the nylon cover.
Hi, In my case the gear reduction did not hit the chainstay. The unit seated against the bottom bracket just as the reduction almost touched the chainstay, less than 1mm clearance. I suspect many aluminum frames there would be interference because the tube diameter is larger. I imagine you needed to shim at the bottom bracket, increasing the chainline still further?

In that case an option seems to be to shim the 42T chainring in with 10mm inside diameter washers, but it looks to me like you could gain only 1mm or so.

And then somehow you would need a chainring dished more than 5mm? I'm not following how you bring chainring back in if you have to shim at the bottom bracket.

It looks to me like I was lucky with my fit, that Tongshin designed tightly to a steel frame with 68mm bottom bracket, that the gear reduction is wide enough so chainline is OK only with a steel frame and 68mm bottom bracket?
No I did not need a shim. I used a BBSHD 42t narrow wide tooth 10mm offset chain ring that was at hand. I took the TS spyder and cut off the 110 tabs, drilled it out for the new rings holes using the ring as a template to mark it. I had to source a spacer and rather than using a bunch of washers I found some the perfect length and diameter at the hardware store but they were white nylon. I didn't hold much hope for them but they are still there and holding strong, Object was to get the chainring as close to the chain stay as possible. The only problem I had was that it rubbed in one spot on the plastic guard cover and wore down one of the stock bolt heads that secure it. The plastic stuck out so I hit it with the heat gun and got it to lay flatter and replaced the bolt with a button head.

However here is a 10mm offset chainring that will bolt right to the stock adapter it's not cheap but neither was my time figuring out how to do my hill billy version and that ring alone was $80 retail. http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/ ... TSDZ2.html

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