New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[feketehegyi]

Poor man's cable connector. "Purple" pin (central) is hidden, but probably with the "no throttle" version I would not need.

Very useful..
Can you confirm which pins in the controller cable plug you are connecting which cable colors to ?
Thanks

I've used info found at hurzhurz's GitHub: https://github.com/hurzhurz/tsdz2/blob/master/pinout.md

• TX sign comes from brown labeled pin. This goes by me to Arduino's pin and catching the data with there.

• Motor is enabled (switched on) with short green and white ones. I use a jumper for this short. When shorted, starts sending data on TX. Also you can ride it with level 3 or 4 assist by default without the LCD.

• Black is GROUND. This goes by me to Arduino's ground.

• It is waiting for RX sign at orange pin. Currently I do no use, as I just analyze the sent data from motor.

How it was made:

Small refinement to adjust pin diameter for the right size:

[AZUR]

TomTom, it really all depends on when the back of the gear reduction housing hits the chain stay. I have put on quite a few TSD's and you lucked out getting a 51mm chainline on your first try. I had to fit another 42t chain ring on mine because although I didn't measure it the chainline in my 42t in the back was too much for my taste, especially as I do a lot of steep climbs. Lines up perfect with the middle cog on the cassette now. You can go too far though and the ring will hit the nylon cover.

Hi, In my case the gear reduction did not hit the chainstay. The unit seated against the bottom bracket just as the reduction almost touched the chainstay, less than 1mm clearance. I suspect many aluminum frames there would be interference because the tube diameter is larger. I imagine you needed to shim at the bottom bracket, increasing the chainline still further?

In that case an option seems to be to shim the 42T chainring in with 10mm inside diameter washers, but it looks to me like you could gain only 1mm or so.

And then somehow you would need a chainring dished more than 5mm? I'm not following how you bring chainring back in if you have to shim at the bottom bracket.

It looks to me like I was lucky with my fit, that Tongshin designed tightly to a steel frame with 68mm bottom bracket, that the gear reduction is wide enough so chainline is OK only with a steel frame and 68mm bottom bracket?

No I did not need a shim. I used a BBSHD 42t narrow wide tooth 10mm offset chain ring that was at hand. I took the TS spyder and cut off the 110 tabs, drilled it out for the new rings holes using the ring as a template to mark it. I had to source a spacer and rather than using a bunch of washers I found some the perfect length and diameter at the hardware store but they were white nylon. I didn't hold much hope for them but they are still there and holding strong, Object was to get the chainring as close to the chain stay as possible. The only problem I had was that it rubbed in one spot on the plastic guard cover and wore down one of the stock bolt heads that secure it. The plastic stuck out so I hit it with the heat gun and got it to lay flatter and replaced the bolt with a button head.

However here is a 10mm offset chainring that will bolt right to the stock adapter it's not cheap but neither was my time figuring out how to do my hill billy version and that ring alone was $80 retail. http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/ ... TSDZ2.html

The chainline is the biggest issue in the TSDZ2 motor manly for a MTB usage.

To have a better chainline in fact the 42T chainring, with a 10mm offset, is the only solution for most of the cases, if you use a MTB cassette.

But to have a good, MTB, ratio you need to have a cassette with a high cog, maybe 50.

I´m using a sunrace 11-50, 11 speed cassette. I use it with one cog less.

I´m using only 10 cogs.Is a custom made cassette. With the 12 speed SRAM GX derailleur and a 12 speed chain. The shifter is a 11 speed SRAM GX.

I use the derailleur screws to restrict the movement of the derailleur after the 50 cog.

It works ok.

But if I started now I think I would go for Shimano 11 speed Alfine.

Maybe you solve almost all the problem with chainline, you also have a good ratio (409%), (in 11-50 cassette you have 455% ratio), maybe is less expensive, and you have a shifter with gear indication.

And also, you maybe can use a 34 chainring or the stock 42T with 5mm offset.



The weight is maybe 600g more, but you have a cleaner solution and more reliable.

Think about Shimano alfine.

[AWD]

TomTom, it really all depends on when the back of the gear reduction housing hits the chain stay. I have put on quite a few TSD's and you lucked out getting a 51mm chainline on your first try. I had to fit another 42t chain ring on mine because although I didn't measure it the chainline in my 42t in the back was too much for my taste, especially as I do a lot of steep climbs. Lines up perfect with the middle cog on the cassette now. You can go too far though and the ring will hit the nylon cover.

Hi, In my case the gear reduction did not hit the chainstay. The unit seated against the bottom bracket just as the reduction almost touched the chainstay, less than 1mm clearance. I suspect many aluminum frames there would be interference because the tube diameter is larger. I imagine you needed to shim at the bottom bracket, increasing the chainline still further?

In that case an option seems to be to shim the 42T chainring in with 10mm inside diameter washers, but it looks to me like you could gain only 1mm or so.

And then somehow you would need a chainring dished more than 5mm? I'm not following how you bring chainring back in if you have to shim at the bottom bracket.

It looks to me like I was lucky with my fit, that Tongshin designed tightly to a steel frame with 68mm bottom bracket, that the gear reduction is wide enough so chainline is OK only with a steel frame and 68mm bottom bracket?

No I did not need a shim. I used a BBSHD 42t narrow wide tooth 10mm offset chain ring that was at hand. I took the TS spyder and cut off the 110 tabs, drilled it out for the new rings holes using the ring as a template to mark it. I had to source a spacer and rather than using a bunch of washers I found some the perfect length and diameter at the hardware store but they were white nylon. I didn't hold much hope for them but they are still there and holding strong, Object was to get the chainring as close to the chain stay as possible. The only problem I had was that it rubbed in one spot on the plastic guard cover and wore down one of the stock bolt heads that secure it. The plastic stuck out so I hit it with the heat gun and got it to lay flatter and replaced the bolt with a button head.

However here is a 10mm offset chainring that will bolt right to the stock adapter it's not cheap but neither was my time figuring out how to do my hill billy version and that ring alone was $80 retail. http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/ ... TSDZ2.html

The chainline is the biggest issue in the TSDZ2 motor manly for a MTB usage.

To have a better chainline in fact the 42T chainring, with a 10mm offset, is the only solution for most of the cases, if you use a MTB cassette.

But to have a good, MTB, ratio you need to have a cassette with a high cog, maybe 50.

I´m using a sunrace 11-50, 11 speed cassette. I use it with one cog less.

I´m using only 10 cogs.Is a custom made cassette. With the 12 speed SRAM GX derailleur and a 12 speed chain. The shifter is a 11 speed SRAM GX.

I use the derailleur screws to restrict the movement of the derailleur after the 50 cog.

It works ok.

But if I started now I think I would go for Shimano 11 speed Alfine.

Maybe you solve almost all the problem with chainline, you also have a good ratio (409%), (in 11-50 cassette you have 455% ratio), maybe is less expensive, and you have a shifter with gear indication.

And also, you maybe can use a 34 chainring or the stock 42T with 5mm offset.



The weight is maybe 600g more, but you have a cleaner solution and more reliable.

Think about Shimano alfine.

First of all it is not possible to get anything less than a 42t past the gear reduction housing so a 34 wouldn't work.

I use an 11/42 which has gotten me up everything I have run across given the limits of traction and line choice overall. I have an 11/46 in stock and a new derailleur but I haven't put them on because quite frankly the 1:1 ratio works well enough for the short very steep bursts here and is fine for the longer sustained ones also @ 52v/Eco. I'm worried that the 6t jump down to 40t in the cluster I will miss the 42, I'll have to see if I can put the 42t in its place I guess. It I was at altitude I know I would be wanting a 50 though.

Chainline on mtb's is more important than ever with the wider cassettes and every TSDZ2 I have assembled struggles with this. As you say custom is the way to go, luckily we have the skill to pull it off. Will the factory ever respond to this issue? Doubtful I suppose.

As far as Alfine goes I have the Di2 version on my any road bike and it is barely able to hang on there without my worrying about it blowing up. No way I would put one on a mtb.

[AZUR]

Hi, In my case the gear reduction did not hit the chainstay. The unit seated against the bottom bracket just as the reduction almost touched the chainstay, less than 1mm clearance. I suspect many aluminum frames there would be interference because the tube diameter is larger. I imagine you needed to shim at the bottom bracket, increasing the chainline still further?

In that case an option seems to be to shim the 42T chainring in with 10mm inside diameter washers, but it looks to me like you could gain only 1mm or so.

And then somehow you would need a chainring dished more than 5mm? I'm not following how you bring chainring back in if you have to shim at the bottom bracket.

It looks to me like I was lucky with my fit, that Tongshin designed tightly to a steel frame with 68mm bottom bracket, that the gear reduction is wide enough so chainline is OK only with a steel frame and 68mm bottom bracket?

No I did not need a shim. I used a BBSHD 42t narrow wide tooth 10mm offset chain ring that was at hand. I took the TS spyder and cut off the 110 tabs, drilled it out for the new rings holes using the ring as a template to mark it. I had to source a spacer and rather than using a bunch of washers I found some the perfect length and diameter at the hardware store but they were white nylon. I didn't hold much hope for them but they are still there and holding strong, Object was to get the chainring as close to the chain stay as possible. The only problem I had was that it rubbed in one spot on the plastic guard cover and wore down one of the stock bolt heads that secure it. The plastic stuck out so I hit it with the heat gun and got it to lay flatter and replaced the bolt with a button head.

However here is a 10mm offset chainring that will bolt right to the stock adapter it's not cheap but neither was my time figuring out how to do my hill billy version and that ring alone was $80 retail. http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/ ... TSDZ2.html

The chainline is the biggest issue in the TSDZ2 motor manly for a MTB usage.

To have a better chainline in fact the 42T chainring, with a 10mm offset, is the only solution for most of the cases, if you use a MTB cassette.

But to have a good, MTB, ratio you need to have a cassette with a high cog, maybe 50.

I´m using a sunrace 11-50, 11 speed cassette. I use it with one cog less.

I´m using only 10 cogs.Is a custom made cassette. With the 12 speed SRAM GX derailleur and a 12 speed chain. The shifter is a 11 speed SRAM GX.

I use the derailleur screws to restrict the movement of the derailleur after the 50 cog.

It works ok.

But if I started now I think I would go for Shimano 11 speed Alfine.

Maybe you solve almost all the problem with chainline, you also have a good ratio (409%), (in 11-50 cassette you have 455% ratio), maybe is less expensive, and you have a shifter with gear indication.

And also, you maybe can use a 34 chainring or the stock 42T with 5mm offset.



The weight is maybe 600g more, but you have a cleaner solution and more reliable.

Think about Shimano alfine.

First of all it is not possible to get anything less than a 42t past the gear reduction housing so a 34 wouldn't work.

I use an 11/42 which has gotten me up everything I have run across given the limits of traction and line choice overall. I have an 11/46 in stock and a new derailleur but I haven't put them on because quite frankly the 1:1 ratio works well enough for the short very steep bursts here and is fine for the longer sustained ones also @ 52v/Eco. I'm worried that the 6t jump down to 40t in the cluster I will miss the 42, I'll have to see if I can put the 42t in its place I guess. It I was at altitude I know I would be wanting a 50 though.

Chainline on mtb's is more important than ever with the wider cassettes and every TSDZ2 I have assembled struggles with this. As you say custom is the way to go, luckily we have the skill to pull it off. Will the factory ever respond to this issue? Doubtful I suppose.

As far as Alfine goes I have the Di2 version on my any road bike and it is barely able to hang on there without my worrying about it blowing up. No way I would put one on a mtb.

I appreciate your experience and advice about shimano alfine. thanks

[AZUR]

Anyone can advise me what to do?

Well, I've just found recently that the motor can work without the LCD as well. It will use the default values, but still better than nothing.
I've felt it has about level 3 or 4 assist as default value. Motor can be switched on by short two pins. I did it with a jumper and 2 PCB pins at cable connector.

thanks feketehegyi

[John and Cecil]

Think about Shimano alfine.

Our chainline is pretty good with the stock offset chainring, however my largest cog is only a 34. Hopefully we won't have issues when we upgrade to 11-40 wide ratio. My chainline lines up between 4th and 5th gear on our 8 spd, I would say very close to 5th gear. I assume centered on the cassette is preferred? We are only maybe a few mm's off center.

I haven't seen him post in this thread in a while but GGGPlaya built a very nice tsdz2 setup with an aftermarket offset chainring and he is using a nuvinci rear hub with gears. He claimed it was working well, you might want to reply to one of his posts (try page 76 of this thread) and see if he can give some input if you are looking to run an igh. I think I rememeber he was towing a trailer with it too. I was thinking about it myself if I decide to reduce my gearing. I would prefer to run a very wide 8 speed rear (like 50-11) and run a 34 front. I tried the 34 front and I did not like it with my cassette (ratio between gears too close), and chainline was lining up about 6th gear.

[tomtom50]

However here is a 10mm offset chainring that will bolt right to the stock adapter it's not cheap but neither was my time figuring out how to do my hill billy version and that ring alone was $80 retail.
http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/ ... TSDZ2.html

Great find. Site shows $100, which sounds like a lot but no one is getting rich making custom machined chainrings to improve TDSZ2 chainline. And it is 7075, definitely the best material to use. I do not know the vendor, I just like what I see. (Stock 42T chainring is dished 5mm, so this part reduces chainline 5mm compared to stock.)

10mm offset chainring.jpeg (109.28 KiB) Viewed 973 times

If I had a chainline problem (it seems I am lucky, my chainstays are steel and the back of the reduction just fits) I would pay the $100 to reduce chainline 5mm.

10mm offset chainring.jpeg (109.28 KiB) Viewed 973 times

(My bike. Ignore the label saying aluminum. This is a 1988 Raleigh Technium, the bottom bracket and stays are conventional steel. The main tubes are aluminum in a glued construction. A decent lugged frame would have a very similar TDSZ2 fit. I'm not surprised people with more modern non-steel frames have issues. In the best case it will fit with virtually no clearance.)
The same site has a 30T adapter http://www.electrifybike.com/store/p66/ ... TSDZ2.html that is "Dished to offer the best chainline this size chainring can offer on this motor". Also a photo of the stock dished 42T for the sake of comparison. To my eye 2-3mm outboard of stock?

30T dished.jpeg (83.39 KiB) Viewed 973 times

30T dished.jpeg (74.99 KiB) Viewed 973 times

What I think would help before purchase is a scaled cross-section of the back side of the TDSZ2 gear reduction. People could print it out full-size, cut the contour with scissors, and lay up against their bottom bracket and stays. That would tell them in advance how their fit will be. You can figure out in advance the chainline you will get and decide in advance if extra chainline adjusting parts blow the budget.

[tomtom50]

Think about Shimano alfine.

Our chainline is pretty good with the stock offset chainring, however my largest cog is only a 34. Hopefully we won't have issues when we upgrade to 11-40 wide ratio. My chainline lines up between 4th and 5th gear on our 8 spd, I would say very close to 5th gear. I assume centered on the cassette is preferred? We are only maybe a few mm's off center.

Yup, with a single chainring setup you ideally want the chainring smack dab in the middle of the cluster.

Cog spacing is about 5mm, so you are off less than that, which is pretty good. The rule of thumb is to be off by less than one cog.

The gears you use more matter as well. If you use 1st gear a lot you might have some issues over time. 40T should not cause a problem in this regard, that is more about your rear derailleur and whether it can handle 40T. Modern derailleurs are remarkably good.

[John and Cecil]

That was another reason why I bought the Raleigh Kodiak, the single pivot point full suspension frame relocates the chainstays to well above the motor housing. I could probably move my chainline way in if I wanted to use that 10mm offset chainring and grind down the one side of my bb, but then the cranks would really be off center!

[AZUR]

Any body knows if the VLDC5 display of the 48v motor comes with 6 or 8 pins?

Thanks

[eyebyesickle]

Any body knows if the VLDC5 display of the 48v motor comes with 6 or 8 pins?

Thanks

They make a 6 pin and 8 pin model. 8 pin can utilize the throttle and brakes, while 6 pin is pedal assist only.

[Waynemarlow]

A couple of things, Sun Race now make an 8 spd wide ratio cassette with steel gears, I think it is 11 -42 or 11- 44 but only 8 gears. I tried a SRAM derailleur but eventually gave up and used a Shimano 10 spd ( 11 spd is the same item ) with a Goats link installed https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/goatlink which gave me what I wanted.

Steel cassettes weigh not a lot more but will with stand the extra power of the motor.

I climb some pretty steep single track with mine on the 42T front and 42T rear and I have to say its pretty spot and that it is no chance of cimbing this steep with pedal power alone.

[AZUR]

Any body knows if the VLDC5 display of the 48v motor comes with 6 or 8 pins?

Thanks

They make a 6 pin and 8 pin model. 8 pin can utilize the throttle and brakes, while 6 pin is pedal assist only.

Thanks

[Bigwheel]

A couple of things, Sun Race now make an 8 spd wide ratio cassette with steel gears, I think it is 11 -42 or 11- 44 but only 8 gears. I tried a SRAM derailleur but eventually gave up and used a Shimano 10 spd ( 11 spd is the same item ) with a Goats link installed https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/goatlink which gave me what I wanted.

Steel cassettes weigh not a lot more but will with stand the extra power of the motor.

I climb some pretty steep single track with mine on the 42T front and 42T rear and I have to say its pretty spot and that it is no chance of cimbing this steep with pedal power alone.

I would miss the extra gears personally as I shift a lot to stay on the pipe. No problems with chain stretch either as I have figured out the way to shift under load once again aiding staying on the pipe.

I had to use a Wolf Link to convert to the 11/42 also. Tried the 11/46 and the derailleur wasn’t going to work....I agree that the 42/42 gear combo will scale stupid steep terrain. Another reason I am reluctant to go to the 6t to 40t drop on it.

[John and Cecil]

Yes the Sunrace csm680 is an 8 speed 11-40, that is the cassette I will eventually switching to next. They are very economical too, maybe $30 including the derailleur extender. For now I have been getting by with the 11-34 Shimano cassette. I have been ok so far, I would like to get some miles on my drivetrain though before I switch them out as my chain will need to be swapped too as it is too short. I hate to waste parts and I cannot take extra stuff with me when we move. Any ideas on how long a chain and cassette on a 750w ebike should last before it is in need of being replaced?

[AWD]

Tom Tom, to me it was less about the housing hitting the chain stay as getting the chain ring in to achieve the best chainline. With the 10mm offset as much as I could do and doing a little crimping behind the housing, high grade steel chain stays, it is at the limit now but centered on the middle of the cluster as I said.

Also note that I use Bafang straight crankarms, 170's.

Speaking of crank arms I see a lot of Levotees clambering towards shorter cranks, some go as low as 150's. This is solely because of crank strikes due to how a torque sensing system will shut down while you are timing your cranks and take a 1/4 to 1/2 revolution to re-activate. Of course if you have a throttle you could just stop pedaling and post off your cranks and zip right through but usually is not time, at least for me as I don't use the throttle much more than for starting off and idling the bike alongside when having to push it uphill.

I could learn to do it over time but what works even better is the way I have always done it by slightly applying pressure to the rear brake and thereby adding more torque to the cranks as I keep turning them slowly, or fast as the case may be to avoid strikes. What it does on the TS is by the slight application you keep enough pressure on the cranks so that they stay active and as soon as you release the lever the system being still on is instantly on tap. I am talking such light pressure on the lever that it is basically just the slack that does the trick. As it is something that I have done for years anyway it is very intuitive to me. In fact I only really started to realize what was happening a few months ago and no more undo crank strikes with the size and relationship to my saddle height I have on all 3 of my bikes currently and in the past 20 years or so.

unnamed-2.jpg (62.8 KiB) Viewed 922 times

unnamed-3.jpg (59.94 KiB) Viewed 922 times

[feketehegyi]

I've made an experiment on using Laptop as LCD display for TSDZ2.

[tomtom50]

Tom Tom, to me it was less about the housing hitting the chain stay as getting the chain ring in to achieve the best chainline. With the 10mm offset as much as I could do and doing a little crimping behind the housing, high grade steel chain stays, it is at the limit now but centered on the middle of the cluster as I said.

Also note that I use Bafang straight crankarms, 170's.

Thanks for the info. I like the straight cranks. Very high Q factor with the stock Tongshin crank arms, its a bit uncomfortable for me.

[dojrude]

unnamed-3.jpg

I much prefer the look of that to standard, looks like a lekkie bling ring!

[matte2k]

I have a noise problem with my Tsdz2.
https://youtu.be/nx2GnmvNajo

As you can see the noise is only active when the motor is.

I have taken apart the motor gears (blue one) and bearings and see no damage or tear on any part.
Regreased it with Mobile28 grease.

After a few 100 meters. The sound is still there.

[casainho]

Yesterday I did the very first ride, of 12 kms, using our OpenSource firmware!! And because I was late for my Zumba class I hadn't time to be gentle with the motor and I always drove at max assist level/power (although I limited on firmware to be max of 15 amps).

I am using a car fuse of 20 amps on the battery cable to protect in case of any short circuit. But the ride went perfect, none problem with the motor, always working at max. The torque and speed were similar to original firmware, if not better, so it is running very well.

What is working:
1. motor runs very well and uses FOC (max efficiency possible)
2. battery voltage:
-- user configuration of battery low voltage value (to avoid battery over discharge), where the battery current used is reduced on low voltage but users will get the max assistance possible up to get the battery fully discharged, the controller never turns off on low voltage
-- no limit of battery max voltage (the only limit is the motor controller hardware: 63V)
3. battery max current: user configuration of max current (max value I tested was 18 amps but higher values are possible to configure -- need brave volunteers here!!)
4. throttle and pedal torque sensor (both can work simultaneous or individually)
5. assist level (used to scale pedal torque sensor value): 5 levels and user can configure the scale ratio of each level
6. wheel speed calculation (user configures on LCD3 the wheel perimeter in millimeters)
7. brakes

I think that now, the adventurer users (with technical knowledge) can test the firmware BUT always using a 20A car fuse and a battery with a BMS, to protect in the case of any short circuit.

[AZUR]

Well done Casainho !

[John and Cecil]

Does anyone know if the opensource firmware is compatible with the stock 8pin vlcd5 display?

[John and Cecil]

For those running 48v motor with 52v battery I made a new milestone yesterday and today. Yesterday I was able to get about 56.5v to go without "kicking it" and today I was able to get 57.0v to go with kicking it. (Actually I overcharged the battery yesterday to 58.5v on the charger, then by this morning it dropped to 57.3, then after a few kicks with the wheel in the air I took a voltage reading and the battery was at 57.0) The usable voltage is definitely still rising over time. Perhaps by the time I receive the ST Link adapter and cable I won't have to program my controller after all

A few days ago it took me almost 1/4 mile ride to get the motor to kick at 56.7v. I wonder if by riding it above the voltage threshold the increased current is wearing away at the electrical pathways. I may try riding around with a full charged battery and see if eventually I can get it to kick on, and then see if the voltage threshold rises for the next charge cycle.

[casainho]

Does anyone know if the opensource firmware is compatible with the stock 8pin vlcd5 display?

No it is not. There are features that would be impossible to have, like configuring the battery max current value or even battery low voltage, etc on the LCD. The OpenSource firmware needs KT-LCD3 and the tools needed to install the firmware on the TSDZ2 motor controller are the same to install the LCD3 firmware.