new eZip motor

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Cylindrical cells like the 18650 aren't exactly known for their energy density. If they are designed correctly, the shouldn't need much airflow through them. In effect, you're shortening their life, then trying to space them out again to regain a small percentage of what was lost.

If you want small packs, pouch is the only way to go. You just need to make sure they are looked after.
 
I'm curious about the way we describe soldering irons. I have several rated by watts but pay more attention to temperature. My TS100 reads the temperature. Would it not make more sense to rate by running temp?

I also found that some tips can make a huge difference in speed and best solder joint. Both pictured. While I no longer build packs with solder, I still think the Kepler solder braid method is the MOST reliable and quickest method.
 

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Both temp and watts are important depending on your job.

If you want to solder high temp solder to very small components, you want something with a fine tip, high temperature setting, but you don't need much watts. While you need a high temp to melt the solder, not much in absolute energy will be sunk into fine wires.

If you want to solder something big and broad that never gets hot, like a 0AWG cable to a large copper ring terminal, a low temp solder, really big tip to transfer heat fast, and really high wattage, so when large amounts of heat sinks into the cable, it's replaced fast.
 
Cylindrical cells like the 18650 aren't exactly known for their energy density. If they are designed correctly, the shouldn't need much airflow through them. In effect, you're shortening their life, then trying to space them out again to regain a small percentage of what was lost.
Click to expand...

No disrespect but do not comprehend much about solder tips. I get the heat part and how the solder has to be liquid and a certain temperature to work.

I also get that my packs are too big and I need to simply hot glue the cells together. Two rows of 10. Then hot glue the BMS to the side of it. Thanks for posting.

LC out.
 
latecurtis said:
No disrespect but do not comprehend much about solder tips. I get the heat part and how the solder has to be liquid and a certain temperature to work.
Click to expand...
The only recommended use for thin pencil tips is for small precise connections. Unsatisfactory for larger wires or connections, insufficient heat can transfer through the small area tip.
Thin tip at 800ºF might only use, be able to transfer, 25w.
Heavy tip can use, be able to transfer, full 60w.
Your new 60w soldering iron is thermostatically controlled and only supplies additional heat as rear of tip lowers in temperature.
Heat transfer from thin tip is reduced-limited.

But, try for yourself! I think we are all getting tired of you repeatedly asking for our help then ignoring our recommendations.

Your last soldering video shows you:
not pre-tinning cell - fails to ensure proper solder to cell connection
not pre-tinning connector - fails to ensure proper solder to connectorl connection
not cleaning tip - prevents good heat transfer and solder application
melting solder and letting it drip onto connection -wrong, bad method , evaporates flux (rosin) preventing clean adhesion! - solder might adhere to fluxed cell but will not insure good connections = corrosion, arcing, failure
 
If you can't figure BMS pin out, check pictures on sellers listing.
If not there, do ebay search for same spec BMS, compare pictures, look for pin out pictures!
 
Cylindrical cells like the 18650 aren't exactly known for their energy density. If they are designed correctly, the shouldn't need much airflow through them. In effect, you're shortening their life, then trying to space them out again to regain a small percentage of what was lost.
Click to expand...

Yes. I am thinking about just hot gluing the cells all together and throwing out the wood.

Also hot gluing the BMS directly to the pack. Do I need to put a piece of plastic or something between the cells and the back of the BMS ?

It will be small and not take up a lot of room. I put the Lipo charger in storage. I need to get it out. I have 19 cells at about 4.0V and one cell at 3.64V. I will need to charge the low cell before I build the pack.

I will switch to a larger tip when soldering the negative terminals. Please let me know how to mount the BMS. Thanks.



8/5/18.

The one pack is already hot glued into the wood. It will be most difficult to remove the cells. The other cells have spots on the side where the wrap is damaged and the metal exposed. I will need to wrap them with electric tape to make sure there is no contact between cells.

Also hot glue together defeats the purpose of soldering wires to the cells. It should be simple to replace a bad cell. If they are all glued together it would be messy and difficult to accomplish. I am developing another method to the madness. Thanks.

8/6/18

I went up the Crane st. hill again with the Currie. I only went part of the way up though. I got a good head start and went about a block and a half or about half way up and when it started slowing down I got off and walked. I only walked about 2-1/2 blocks then went the last block which was not as steep to make it home.

I could have took the entire hill but decided to give my controller and batteries a break. The Motor is probably more than capable of taking that hill as many times as I want it to but don't feel like abusing my equipment any longer. The Currie has proven to be a very reliable e bike with the 750 watt gear reduction motor. Also the 3p - Samsung batteries have proven to work exceptionally well.

The 3p pack voltage reads about 3.96V after a 1.3 mile trip with 1/2 mile being up hills. My trip downtown is about 2.6 miles round trip but I always recharge before returning. I am very happy with three of Samsung packs. I still do not understand why the fourth pack was low in voltage.

The max amount of voltage it will take after being on the charger overnight is 3.97V. I did get a refund for that pack and ran the pack solo to Wall-Mart approx 0,6 miles and 1.5 miles round trip as I went a different way home. Voltage was about 3.75V upon return. I do not think I should combine it with the other three. Also I am wondering if I should order more 36V packs as I don't know if they will send me good ones or not.

My other unanswered question is would it be recommended to combine the Three Samsung packs to the SONA packs. I believe the Samsung packs to be higher in capacity. However they all have a BMS. I could run them all in parallel but charge the SONA packs with a separate charger.

Also I noticed that the 3p pack has much more power than the single low voltage pack. The trip to Wall-Mart and back only require a couple of small hills. Therefore I would like to run the SONA packs with the Samsung packs for 5p. If I charge them separate will that work. Please let me know.

My final question is about the LG cells. I twisted one and it easily came loose so I will be building them a lot smaller. I will wrap some electric tape around each cell then tape the BMS to the side of the pack.It should work out good. Thanks and please let me know.


LC out.
 
latecurtis said:
I still do not understand why the fourth pack was low in voltage.

The max amount of voltage it will take after being on the charger overnight is 3.97V. I did get a refund for that pack and ran the pack solo to Wall-Mart approx 0,6 miles and 1.5 miles round trip as I went a different way home. Voltage was about 3.75V upon return.
Click to expand...
Unwrap the 4th pack
Measure the voltage on each cell pair
Likely, one pair is high voltage, triggering the high cell voltage safety shutoff
1 pair or one of one pair bad
Try discharging to equal others

If only 9 pairs good, split into 3 x 3s2p
Add in series with 3 x 10s2p for 3 x 13s2p = 48.1V 13.2Ah
 
latecurtis said:
Also hot glue together defeats the purpose of soldering wires to the cells. It should be simple to replace a bad cell. If they are all glued together it would be messy and difficult to accomplish. I am developing another method to the madness. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Or.... This is a crazy, crazy idea, but hear me out. Use a 18650 spacer like everyone else?

Like this:
771547847_708.jpg
 
Unwrap the 4th pack
Measure the voltage on each cell pair
Likely, one pair is high voltage, triggering the high cell voltage safety shutoff
1 pair or one of one pair bad
Try discharging to equal others

If only 9 pairs good, split into 3 x 3s2p
Add in series with 3 x 10s2p for 3 x 13s2p = 48.1V 13.2Ah
Click to expand...

I fail to understand the logic in a BMS.

I thought the reason for a BMS was to discharge and balance all cells equally. You are now saying to take a pack apart and look for the weak cells ? I thought a BMS was supposed to compensate for weak cells ? Was that not the purpose ? I can live with pack #4 how it is. I can see it has not much power so can use it for short trips with short and small hills.

I do understand the logic of many packs in parallel. There is greater power.

I want to deal with the LG cells. I can run the LG cells in parallel with the weak Samsung pack. 3p for 3 mile total runs.

Or.... This is a crazy, crazy idea, but hear me out. Use a 18650 spacer like everyone else?
Click to expand...

NO. Waste of money. My way is better. I will post pictures to prove it.

Also my question about combining the SONA packs and the Samsung packs was not answered. The SONA packs were 4.0 Ah each and the Samsung is 4.4 Ah each. If I were to hook them all in parallel then the SONA packs could be charged separate from the Samsung cells. Run together and charged separate. 5p. Would you recommend it ??????? Please let me know. Thanks.

LC out.
 
A BMS (Battery Management System) is to protect the battery build from catastrophic failure, dangerous-destructive over charge\discharge.

Standard protections include:
Pack overcharge
Pack overdischarge
Cell level overcharge
Cell level overdischarge
Excessive discharge Amps

Optional protections include:
Thermal overheat
Balance function

A BMS will not "fix" a defective pack, it will make it safer and partially usable.
I have previously described a BMS as:
"A security blanket for your battery" (make you feel better-safer)
"A Band-Aid for a defective battery" (does not "fix", hides problem but does help prevent dangerous failure)

With a "proper" build
No self-discharging cells
Banks of equal IR and capacity
Reasonable size-Ah
Moderated charged discharged voltages
Monitored voltage
A BMS never functions!
Never needs balancing

I can, typically bulk charge, (not balance charge!), my battery builds for hundreds of cycles without any notable divergence in bank voltages! - With no BMS!!!
And yes, I have documented, step by step, for you, several times, how to build likewise!
I confirm with cell level voltage meter-alarm- <$2

You had better test your LG cells after your soldering hack job!!!
 
latecurtis said:
Also my question about combining the SONA packs and the Samsung packs was not answered. The SONA packs were 4.0 Ah each and the Samsung is 4.4 Ah each. If I were to hook them all in parallel then the SONA packs could be charged separate from the Samsung cells. Run together and charged separate. 5p. Would you recommend it ???????
Click to expand...
Run together and charge together! No danger - no downside!
Just connect (parallel) when of same pack voltages.
Do not parallel bad (low voltage) pack to anything else.

You should determine, as I previously noted, the optimal discharged voltage for the Sona cells.
Do not discharge combined packs below Sona voltage "cliff"
Voltage monitor during use should help determine.
Info on the Samsung shows 3.40V as "the" (my) maximum recommended discharged voltage.
 
Run together and charge together! No danger - no downside!
Just connect (parallel) when of same pack voltages.
Do not parallel bad (low voltage) pack to anything else.
Click to expand...

I am trying to understand that concept. It sounds perfectly reasonable if they were all exactly the same capacity but with the SONA packs being at a slightly lower capacity then how could they all charge equally when all hooked to the same charger ?

I still have the pre-hookup cable so see no harm in combining them, running them then recharging them and then separating them and testing the SONA packs and Samsung packs separate. If the voltages match then re combine them. If they do not and the higher capacity Samsung packs are not fully charged then I will need to put them back on the charger.

A BMS will not "fix" a defective pack, it will make it safer and partially usable.
Click to expand...

I went 0.9 miles to MacDonald's one way and 1.8 miles both ways and the single low voltage pack shut down twice on small hills. the first time on the way there and the second time about 30 feet from my house. Also the pack was hot.

Everyone recommended the genuine Samsung cells and I did get a refund for the low voltage pack. However do not know if I will order any more of them. The low voltage pack needs to be tore apart which I really do not want to do. I simply want more of the good packs but do not know what they will send me.

As far as the LG cells I have 40 of them and used electrical tape to put them snug in the wood holder I built however it is too large and when removing electric tape from center damaged insulation on many of the cells in the center. I can't have the metal of two cells touching by accident. I will be using electrical tape to wrap each cell. Then wrap it around each bank and then more electrical tape to wrap the entire pack of 20 cells. Then more electrical tape to mount the BMS on the side of the pack.

Obviously if these packs are run up hills they could get hot and melt the tape. However do not plan on running them up any major hills. That is what my 5p pack is for as the SONA packs ran up state st. hill ok and the Samsung 3p ran up Crane st. hill so together they will be even greater.

The LG cells once built may be put in parallel with the low voltage Samsung pack but not sure if I should attempt finding and replacing the bad cells in the pack. It runs but not that good. I have four Westinghouse cells from Wall-Mart I could use a couple to replace the bad cells I guess. Would that work ?

You had better test your LG cells after your soldering hack job!!!
Click to expand...

I soldered 21 cells and tested them all with the multi meter. Most were about 4.0V a few were 4.01 to 4.03V. One was 0V the 0V went out the window and one was 3.64V and got the charger out of storage to deal with the 3.64V cell.

The other 20 cells were all different voltage but separated into banks. two cells within 0.02V of each other. Each bank though is different and range from around 3.5V to 3.9V. Do I need to charge each bank individually or will the BMS do the job for me. Please let me know. Thanks.



LC out.
 
Chargers charge batteries based on voltage, Ah is a byproduct.
Batteries charged in parallel will all have identical voltage!
... how could you not recognize this concept?


There is no need for a "pre-hookup cable" if batteries are near same voltage.
Pre-hookup cable would be for connecting 42V battery to 0V controller = 42V spark.
Connecting 42V battery to 41.9V battery = .1V spark ... nothing!


You had better review the most simple-basic principles of electricity!
 
Chargers charge batteries based on voltage, Ah is a byproduct.
Batteries charged in parallel will all have identical voltage!
... how could you not recognize this concept?
Click to expand...

Because I would think that a higher capacity battery would take longer to charge than a lower capacity battery. It would seem to me if two packs in parallel being charged by same charger the 4.0 Ah pack would reach full charge before the 4.4 Ah pack. So if I were to guess the 4.4 Ah pack would only be 3.9V and the 4 Ah pack 4.4V.

However I am glad that is not the case and it makes it easier if I can charge all five packs together. The only thing I will have to worry about is finding a new battery bag which will hold all five packs. The current one only holds three packs and my charger.

I will be using a larger solder tip tonight to solder the negative side of 20 batteries. Once done all 40 cells will be ready to build two 20 cell 36 volt packs each with a BMS. At that point I will test them out on a couple of short runs. After that I might deal with the low voltage Samsung pack.



I really wish I could understand and grasp the concept of parallel charging packs of different capacity. I just don't get it. Maybe you could explain it better. Is it the BMS ? Does the BMS on the lower capacity pack stop it from overcharging and direct the current to the packs that need to be fully charged ? I thought that once the charger sees a pack reaching 4.04V it would stop the current leaving the higher capacity packs at a lower voltage than the lower capacity packs. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC out.
 
You are confusing charging different capacity cells in parallel (all identical voltage) vs charging different capacity cells in series (lower capacity cells charge and discharge faster)
 
OK. Thanks.

As long as it works. I remember Wtuber as well as you and many others stating that the more packs in parallel the better it is for the batteries.

Also I have noticed the power difference when running a single pack vs. 2p and 3p. It is almost as much power as 12S - 44V LiPo. Thanks.

LC out.
 
Test all cells before combining into pack.
Part of Step 1 is charging all to identical voltage.

2nd part of Step 1 is
Let set several days then measure voltage to eliminate any with self discharge (especially important if reliable battery build desired!)
Excessive heat from hack soldering job potentially damaged separator causing some degree of internal short.
 
DrkAngel said:
igot the vruzend kit and realized it will be crap for high amp battery so i wanted a refund on unopened products and they won't refund me so be aware
.
... Typical! You never read the description-info-instructions

"The caps in your VRUZEND kit with stainless steel spring contacts are rated for a peak current of 5 A each, and it is better to aim for 3.5 A of continuous current. That means that you’ll want to make sure that you plan to have enough cells in parallel to handle your total current load. A single cell would be able to support a peak of 5 A when using the VRUZEND terminal caps. "

Your 4p battery build was rated for 14A! (20A for brief surges) ... not the 40-50A you subjected it to!
Similarly to the 5A alligator clips you were running 40A through, the clips would heat very quickly and transfer damaging heat to the LG cells!
Heat would build and likely detension the springs in the caps ≫ causing poor pressure ≫ causing arcing ≫ causing great heat ≫ causing cap or cell failure ≫ putting a much greater load on remaining cells in parallel ≫ causing substantially more-more heat!!!

All this is explained in the sellers item description and their support page!
As per usual ... you only seem to see what you want to see?

Honestly LC ... trying to help you is like trying to spoon feed a tired angry baby ...

Feeding2520Baby2520Chocolate.gif
Click to expand...
 
IMG_3779.JPG

Excessive heat from hack soldering job potentially damaged separator causing some degree of internal short.
Click to expand...

Yea I guess.

I did the best I could. I scratched the surface thoroughly , applied flux and used an iron that actually was hot enough to completely melt the solder.

Almost every joint in my pictures is uniform. However am still ridiculed here on this forum.

I am convinced that there is absolutely nothing that I can do right so see no good reason to continue posting here.


Peace out.
 
As explained to you many times, time the iron spends on the cell is the critical factor.
5 seconds seems the optimally recommended.
Your 1st soldering video had you with the iron on the cell for, like, 5 minutes!

Brief 800ºF iron does not sink deep to the sensitive plastic separator.
Prolonged 600ºF will.
You need the larger chisel tip for quick efficient heat transfer.
 
Your 1st soldering video had you with the iron on the cell for, like, 5 minutes!
Click to expand...

I think the first video was with the 30 watt iron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APB0m2sao1I&feature=youtu.be

That is the second one I believe.

yes. The hotter iron actually melted the solder to a complete liquid state. The 30 watt did not get the job done nearly as fast or as well.

I will check voltage on the cells. I also need to charge 20 of the cells and then wait for a day to see how they are.

If they do not lose voltage they are good right ? I will write down voltage for each 24 hours after a full charge. Please let me know.

LC out.
 
Checking for self-discharge is Step 1.
 


Chargers charge batteries based on voltage, Ah is a byproduct.
Batteries charged in parallel will all have identical voltage!
... how could you not recognize this concept?
Because I would think that a higher capacity battery would take longer to charge than a lower capacity battery. It would seem to me if two packs in parallel being charged by same charger the 4.0 Ah pack would reach full charge before the 4.4 Ah pack. So if I were to guess the 4.4 Ah pack would only be 3.9V and the 4 Ah pack 4.4V.
Click to expand...

The SONA packs are 4.0 Ah. The Samsung packs are 4.4 Ah. It is possible that DA misunderstood my question about combining packs. I think the SONA packs are 4.4V and the Samsung packs are 4.3V. That should be doable but not without the pre hook up cable.
The thing is though they are different capacity.

https://www.quora.com/What-happens-when-connecting-two-batteries-of-different-amp-hour-rating-in-parallel


My other unanswered question is would it be recommended to combine the Three Samsung packs to the SONA packs. I believe the Samsung packs to be higher in capacity. However they all have a BMS. I could run them all in parallel but charge the SONA packs with a separate charger.
Click to expand...

I guess I was right about that one. They are close enough in Ah to run together as the BMS will cut the lower capacity packs before damage.

Also since the capacity is close and it would be 5p , range would increase so lower capacity packs would not likely shut down unless the packs were run too far. My safe guess is 2.5 miles per pack so five packs should do a 12.5 mile round trip as long as not too many steep hills to climb.

For very steep hills my answer would be a second 5p pack and motor on the other wheel for all wheel drive which I already built basically making me close to a genius here on ES. It appears I am smarter than you all think I am. Mabye not a genius but closer to genius than the idiot I am being accused of being.

When charging the two SONA packs they need their own charger and the three Samsung packs a different charger. DA probably did not thoroughly read my entire post. It could explain a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjK860xpIgA&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAKzIRKUYco&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv28e29XriY&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFta9f6kmE4&feature=youtu.be

If you look closely on the last video the old tip is laying on the wood next to the knife I use to scratch the surface of the cells before soldering. Also the top picture shows the old tip. I changed it to the next bigger size however it seems that the end of the new tip is falling apart. I will need to put another one on when I solder again.

Cells of same voltage were combined and wrapped in electrical tape. The one in the red clamp was a re-solder as the joint failed when removing from the wood cell holder. The ones on the charger were both 3.54V. Four cells total separated into two banks.

I will be charging each bank until all reach full charge. I will then let sit for a day and check voltage on each. Then I will attempt to tape all 10 banks together and hook up the BMS. I will do the same for the 20 cells I just soldered the negative terminals in the video. Those were all balanced charged and close to 4.0V but one is 3.64V. It needs to be charged separate. Thanks.



PS. My internet could be getting shut off soon. Since I am moving probably won't get turned back on any time soon. It could be tomorrow or a couple of days unless the other people here using it do not give me 25 bucks each. It is $74 but $1:50 to pay at Wall Mart.
Thanks.

LC out.
 

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Well ... I tried ...

Guess LC would rather listen to someone of similar ignorance and limited reasoning ability.
He should have read the next answer ... from a battery expert.
But reading beyond what he wants to "know" isn't a priority?

Answers #2 and #4 seems knowledgeable.
 
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