Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Hi guy's,

I've tried to find the answer but not sure if I ended up at the right conclusion.

I currently run a 9W LED light bar of the DC output from my CAv3. I would like to add a second light bar (also 9W) bringing the total power draw up to 18W, but I can't figure out if the CA will handle that.
From what I can tell the output might have a 1A fuse, which would give me up to 50W at my batteries nominal ~50V, but I find that hard to believe.

Will the CAv3 DC output handle ~20W without issue?

Cheers

TreksterJim said:

I have a CA3 that displays VERS3PRLM9 when I turn it on. I am trying to update it to the latest firmware.




Where do I go from here?

Click to expand...

Wow!
Prelim9 was released back in Feb of 2015

Anyhow, the advice from Adamlivi is spot on: just do what the message says.

• Make sure you running Setup Utility 1.54.
• Press the "Get New Firmware" button to download the latest stuff.
• Use the "Update Firmware" option but as the message above says: check the box to "Reset Settings to Defaults"
• Update!

The problem here is that your firmware is so old that the Setup Utility can't do it's new trick of moving old settings into new firmware so you need to tell it that it's okay to just blast in default values. This also prevents SU from trying to query the CA firmware for the present settings and so sidesteps any issues with the existing firmware - SU just shoots up the CA with new programming and settings without using the existing firmware at all.

Cowardlyduck said:

From what I can tell the output might have a 1A fuse, which would give me up to 50W at my batteries nominal ~50V, but I find that hard to believe.

Will the CAv3 DC output handle ~20W without issue?

Click to expand...

Yep. No problem.
See [strike]Un[/strike]official Guide section "5.10 Powering Accessories with the CA".

Unofficial Guide said:

3. The external DC Power Plug is attached to VF and supplies unregulated +V via a 1A auto-resetting polyfuse.

Click to expand...

Thanks teklektik. Your clear instructions got the job done. Our three CA3's are now updated to CA3-11.

-Jim Bonner

v3.12 Released (also Solar 3.1x19S)

Title says it all!

The earlier release of 3.12b1 has been rebranded as 3.12 and will be the new CA production release to ship with new CA3s. This version remedies communication hangs in 3.11 that upset efforts to flash new firmware or Read/Write settings.

When you fetch the new firmware using the Setup Utility, you will also notice a new 'Solar' category. This presently contains 3.1x19S which is a rebranded version of the experimental Solar/GPS firmware that was distributed in the Sun Tour thread as 3.1a19S. This is the same firmware but it's a little nicer to obtain it directly through the Setup Utility.





So - press "Get New Firmware", check the boxes in the pop-up, and the new firmware should appear in your Setup Utility.

I'm very interested configuring an AutoTorquePAS (mentioned in the PDF manual)but the setup seems to have changed upon flashing to 3.12 I don't see that selection anymore. So the question is is there another way to do AutoTorquePAS in v3.12. Additionally is there another walk through the setup for PAS on ES.


~Any help greatly appreciated.

Tom on 101 said:

I'm very interested configuring an AutoTorquePAS ...

Click to expand...

AutoTorqPAS was a hack using 3.0x firmware to get RPM-scaled PAS with a simple PAS wheel sensor, but this capability is built into 3.1x making autoTorqPAS obsolete.

Review the Tool Tips or Help file for information of the settings. Although there is presently no up-to-date video about configuring the new revised settings menus, I think you will find the help information adequate. Just start out by configuring for 'Basic(PWR)', set the desired PAS power, and configure the number of extra watts you want for every rpm over 50rpm - zero disables rpm-scaling.

You also really need an analog or digital Aux input to be able to tweak the PAS on the fly.

Thank you for the update. The 3.12 firmware is much more stable on my computer and seemed like it is much better at sending and receiving data from the CA. As far as PAS setup to use the Basic(Pwr), I still need a cadence sensing wheel (perhaps just the BB style sensor) or is there a way to do some PAS with just the speedometer and RPM readings? Right now when I'm in the Setup screen for Speedometer I can see my pulses coming from the hall sensors clearly when rotating and running the motor produces both RPM and Speed readouts on the CA.

Tom on 101

Tom on 101 said:

I still need a cadence sensing wheel (perhaps just the BB style sensor)

Click to expand...

Yes, you need a magnet ring - the more magnets the better. See the Grin site for some plug and play options.

Tom on 101 said:

...is there a way to do some PAS with just the speedometer and RPM readings? Right now when I'm in the Setup screen for Speedometer I can see my pulses coming from the hall sensors clearly when rotating and running the motor produces both RPM and Speed readouts on the CA.

Click to expand...

You need a PAS sensor to do PAS --- but something is not right.
The RPM display shows pedal cadence (not motor RPM) and since you have no PAS device attached to the RPM input, there should be no RPM reading.

Doe the RPM arrow on the "SETUP PAS DEVICE" prefix screen flip up and down?
Have you attached something to the PAS RPM input?

It's conceivable (but unlikely) that it's getting some wiring crosstalk - try grounding the RPM input and see if the RPM display goes to zero. If it does then connecting up a suitable PAS sensor should work okay. If you still get an RPM reading then something is miswired.

Anyone knows if I can buy a programmed microchip for repairing my CA3?

Or just complete pcb without case and wires is also fine

Thanks

teklektik said:

You need a PAS sensor to do PAS --- but something is not right.
The RPM display shows pedal cadence (not motor RPM) and since you have no PAS device attached to the RPM input, there should be no RPM reading.

Doe the RPM arrow on the "SETUP PAS DEVICE" prefix screen flip up and down?
Have you attached something to the PAS RPM input?

It's conceivable (but unlikely) that it's getting some wiring crosstalk - try grounding the RPM input and see if the RPM display goes to zero. If it does then connecting up a suitable PAS sensor should work okay. If you still get an RPM reading then something is miswired.

Click to expand...

The something is actually the MG310 motor I'm using which has an internal speedometer. So the CA is picking up the signal with that motor. I just ordered the 24pole cadence sensor from Grin as well. Right now the RPM arrows are NOT flipping up and down so there is no pedel/cadence detection. I'll check the wiring too, I've definitely has some issues there but I'm following the Grin documentation. I have a Torque sensor installed but I haven't hooked it up to the CA for this configuration. I'm kind of going slowly through all the PAS options and the torque sensing was the most difficult. I'll come back around to that option once I get this 24 pole sensor up and running. Thank you for the help.

Tom on 101 said:

Right now the RPM arrows are NOT flipping up and down so there is no pedel/cadence detection.

Click to expand...

Those arrows flipping directly reflect the input cadence signal. No flipping should mean no RPM display.

teklektik said:

As mentioned in the recent posts, there is some timing issue in play with the Setup Utility and it's quite possible that your non-standard comms solution is upsetting things - your DIY solution seems to fail with two different products.

Discussing details of how to avoid purchasing the proper Grin cable isn't really the topic of this thread and I can only recommend that you get the proper cable or settle in and pound away on the usual DIY cable solution Science Project of mismatched Rx/Tx wiring and peculiar driver anomalies... Barring this recent timing issue, the CA stuff isn't really that fussy - I have flashed CAs using a modified Lyen/EM3EV controller cable with a Prolific chip set. Other non-Grin cable solutions can clearly be made to work with a dose of experimentation if saving a few bucks is important...

Click to expand...

Thank you for the replay. After some trial and error, I got my diy solution to work, and I am communicating with the CA and Phaserunner without problems.

And sorry for bringing up the discussion on how to get around using the OEM cable. Had i known that my diy cable wasent compatible I would have bought the cable from grin when I first placed the order. And dont get me wrong. If saving a few bucks was a priority I would just kept using my car to and from work. But ordering just the 15$ cable adds over 30$ in shipping, and probably even more in customs fees.
The motivation behind me getting a ebike is that i want to learn more about electronics, and get a opportunity to get some exercise on my way to work. Yeah, getting a high powerd ebike might not be the best idea, but trust me, pedaling as hard as i can, even though I am doing 50+kph, really gets my pump going.

Anyhow, i cant get the e-brake to work.

I had it working once, spun up the motor and saw slow down when I pressed the brake, and got a negative W number on the CA, but then I tore the bike apart again, to install some new tires, and relocate the controller, and during that I updated the CA the the recently released software.

Now i cant get it working again. I currently got the grin tripwire and a thumb throttle from Grin (planning to get something else soon), and when i press the brake, the icon in CA goes to brake mode, but no braking.

Can you help me figure this out? I have tried all kinds of setting, after a lot of reading, but no success.

Thank you in advance

Hellemyr said:

Anyhow, i cant get the e-brake to work.

I had it working once, spun up the motor and saw slow down when I pressed the brake, and got a negative W number on the CA, but then I tore the bike apart again, to install some new tires, and relocate the controller, and during that I updated the CA the the recently released software.

Now i cant get it working again. I currently got the grin tripwire and a thumb throttle from Grin (planning to get something else soon), and when i press the brake, the icon in CA goes to brake mode, but no braking.

Click to expand...

Since settings don't change it, you may want ot veriify your wiring, which probably either changed or was damaged when moving the controller.


You can easily test this by disconnecting the CA ebrake output from the controller, and shorting the controller's ebrake input to ground. If that still doesn't engage it, then there's something wrong between that point and the controller.

Hellemyr said:

i cant get the e-brake to work.
...
I currently got the grin tripwire and a thumb throttle from Grin (planning to get something else soon), and when i press the brake, the icon in CA goes to brake mode, but no braking.

Click to expand...

This is likely a configuration mismatch between the CA and Phaserunner.

Theory of Operation
Ebraking with the CA normally involves reducing ThO from the defined ThO->MinOut to EBk->BrakeOut. Optionally, EBk->PropRegen may be enabled (the default) which tells the CA to further reduce ThO proportionally to 0.0V as the throttle is opened.

In order for either proportional or fixed regen to work, the controller must support regen via throttle control (all Grin controllers do this) NOT by controller ebrake input, and the CA and controller must be configured for matching regen voltage ranges.

This outline in the [strike]Un[/strike]official Guide section "5.3 Grin Tech Proportional Regenerative Braking" as shown in this diagram. The critical CA and controller settings are highlighted on the lower left - the two colors show the pairs of values that can be identical or better yet, an small bit apart (0.05V or so) to ensure the features trigger. You can see the effect of manipulating the throttle and pressing the ebrake by switching to the Diagnostic Screen (one left of Main) and watching the IN and OUT fields. You should see IN do the top graph and OUT do the lower graph.





The Fix
So - you likely have mismatched the critical settings above. Here is a sample set of Phaserrunner settings that should work pretty well for the default CA hall throttle settings.





This is just a sample, but it shows the same relative voltage relationships as displayed in the first image. Importantly, we see that here the PR is going to start applying regen at 0.8V but the CA is set to apply braking voltage at only 0.5V. This means that as soon as you apply ebrakes, the PR will be into about 37% of its available regen braking. If the CA is configured for proportional regen (default), you can then - with the ebrakes applied - open the throttle which will send ThO to 0V at max throttle and the PR to max regen. Alternatively, if you don't like proportional regen or want to increase the initial regen effect, you can lower EBk->BrakeOut to increase starting or zero-throttle regen.

This may take a little staring to make sense, but you likely have some of these relative values misaligned or otherwise misconfigured. Check the CA Diagnostic Screen OUT field to see what is happening on the CA end and use the Dashboard to see what is happening on the PR end. There is nothing magic about these particular values - after you get the CA setup for minimal dead zones on the throttle, you can arrange the CA ThO to be whatever you want as long as the PR is matched.

CA/PR Configutation Steps:

1. Configure the CA ThrI settings for minimum deadzone, etc.
2. Configure the CA ThrO settings as desired. The (1.00V - 4.00V) defaults are fine and give a nice 3V operatiing range.
3. Set the PR Utility to the Advanced tab
4. Copy the ThrO->MaxOut and ThrO->MinOut from the CA to the PR 'Throttle High/Low Voltage Reading' fields
5. Set PR 'Throttle Deadband Threshold' to 0.08V (or thereabouts)
6. Set PR 'Throttle Fault Range' to be at least 0.2V greater than 'Throttle High Voltage Reading'
   and/or about (5.0V - 'Throttle High Voltage Reading')/2 (e.g. (5.0V - 4.0V)/2 = 0.5V)
7. Set PR 'Brake Off Voltage Reading' to be about 0.2V below 'Throttle Low Voltage Reading'
8. Configure the CA EBk->BrakeOut setting to be 0.1V or more below 'Brake Off Voltage Reading'
   Identical values give no regen but cut motor power, smaller values increase baseline regen (i.e. with no throttle application)
9. Set PR 'Maximum Braking Effort Voltage Reading' to 0V. Optionally increase this value to achieve maximum regen at less than full throttle setting (e.g. to get full regen at only 1/2 throttle rotation)

FWIW:

• Generally, to avoid mishaps starting out with a fresh flash or firmware load where defaults may be in play, it's a good idea to keep your particular CA ThO range around the defaults so the bike doesn't run away or do something unpleasant before you get the CA tuned back to your desired settings.
• It is possible for the PR to have one of its hissy fits and not respond properly to regen settings. If the CA OUT voltages are as you wish and the PR is properly configured but is responding improperly, you may have to reset it to defaults and reconfigure it.
• Be aware that unlike the CA, the PR is not individually calibrated when it leaves the factory and its readings may not match the CA. You can use the Dashboard to see what the PR thinks it going on - these are the values you must use to configure it because that's the way it sees the world... Although it should be possible to 'correct' the PR calibrations by meddling with attributes, I have never been able to do so and have the autotune, etc work successfully - I recommend bending to its will and just fudging the configuration voltages/amperages appropriately if discrepancies do arise.

So - without CA setup and PR XML files to analyze, this is sort of a hand-waving generality, but perhaps it will clarify how settings are related between the two devices...

Wow, this is awesome tek! Thank you so much.

If i dont get it to work with all this helpful information, I really have to consider if this hobby is for me

Ill have a go at it tomorrow after work, and report back when i get it to work. Again, thank you.

So...uhhm, as you said, either the Phaserunner, or myself has one of those hissy fits you mentioned, because I still cant get the regen to work

I have followed ur writeup, and looking at the dashboard on the ph software, the throttle voltage drops when i trigger ebrake, and goes further down when i throttle, but it dosent seen to want to engage ebrake.

I also did reset the phaserunner, and configured it again, with no success.

I saved the files, both for the ph and ca. but I cant see to upload the ca file..? I get

ERROR
Invalid file extension: Read Setup 1.hex

And again, thank you for this clear explanation of the ebrake function.

View attachment PH xml.xml

Yep - ES is a little fussy about file extensions. You can zip up the file, change the extension to something legal (.txt), or add a second extension (.txt).

Anyhow - your PR setup looks ok and from the behavior you describe, it looks like your CA setup is good as well (the CA is sending the proper ThO voltages). This rather looks like another PR snafu. I confess to having had this identical problem, but the reset/autotune trick worked for me.

I can only recommend emailing Grin to Robbie's attention. He's the PR guru - time to call in the Big Guns....

So I located the fault to be between the seatpost and the handlebars

What had happen is that I removed the throttle connector from the phaserunner, since i was not using it. Turns out there was 2 wires (blue and green) going into one of the pins on the throttle plug, and they have to be connected to make the ebrake work. So all works fine by now.

So no need to bother with the mail i sendt you if you are reading this, Robbie from ebike.ca, got it working after some reading on the forum


But to another question. Looking over the connectors between PH and CA, even if I did my best to heatshrink the connectors to prevent water ingress, I still found water inside the connectors after just a few trips in the wet, so I have to get some other connectors, and also move them from where they are now. But that wont happen right away.

So whats the worst that can happen if water finds its way inside the connectors and short something out? Bricked ca and ph, or just manual pedaling back home? The connectors in question are the CA plug, and hall plug.

I've been running an infineon/CAv3 combo from em3ev and it's been loud, but runs great. I recently bought a phaserunner and swapped out the controller, went through the setup and now my bike accelerates painfully slow (but amazingly quiet). I'm only running 52v 40A on a 1500w leaf motor. What should my phaserunner settings be at to add a bit more torque? Or is it the CA that needs adjustment. If I lift the wheel of the ground and apply throttle, it accelerates very fast, but if I put it on the ground... Slow
I'm not doing regency (yet), have a grin slim half twist and running the latest firmware on the CA

Dumsterdave said:

I've been running an infineon/CAv3 combo from em3ev and it's been loud, but runs great. I recently bought a phaserunner and swapped out the controller, went through the setup and now my bike accelerates painfully slow (but amazingly quiet).

Click to expand...

This is not surprising. There are countless posts touting the unqualified advantages of PR phase control. Unfortunately, there is a conspicuous downside compared to Infineons that is rarely mentioned. These older trap controllers were designed to give DD motors a current boost off the line to get them moving to compensate for crappy DD performance at dead slow speed. This is not an accident of design but a specific feature that end users see as the 'block time' parameter. This is the adjustable period in seconds where normal programmed current limiting is ignored and the controller operates only on a fixed built-in ridiculously high current limit (essentially unlimited). So, when you go WOT on an Infineon off the line it can dump bags of current for a while and then switch back to your actual settings. The PR has no such feature and always obeys the programmed maximum.

Another issue is that the Infineons only estimate phase current instead of actually measuring it. This means the controller phase current setting is generally wrong and can (usually) limit differently than programmed - particularly for gear motors and large DD motors. It works much better for the commonplace 9C type for which the controllers were originally designed. So - the Infineon can be more generous with phase amps than expected regardless of the block time issue.

• FWIW: I have a Paratrooper I use for CA testing. When originally built it had a Mac10T and 12FET Infineon and until I damped things down with the CA, I had to lean over the bars to keep the front end down - it was virtually unridable with no CA. Installing a Phaserunner gave the prescribed quiet operation, but took away all the radical acceleration. Very nice and controllable but boringly docile even at high phase current. So - I like the control but do miss the acceleration...

But enough of this non-CA stuff...

Dumsterdave said:

What should my phaserunner settings be at to add a bit more torque? Or is it the CA that needs adjustment. If I lift the wheel of the ground and apply throttle, it accelerates very fast, but if I put it on the ground... Slow

Click to expand...

You should be running PassThru throttle mode and higher numbers for your UpRate so the CA is not slowing throttle application (too much). Although you should go to the PR thread for better advice about the controller, you should have a low ramping value so the throttle ramping is controlled by the CA not the PR (try 50ms PR up rate). Remembering that acceleration and hill-climbing are strongly dependent on phase current - I would crank that up to the max - (96A) (but - watch the temperature on your PR - you will need a heatsink if you pound it at these high currents for long - there are posts on this.)

Dumsterdave said:

I'm not doing regency (yet)...

Click to expand...

I don't know what that means...

Thanks for the detailed response. I'll play with the settings and see what I can come up with.
Although I'm a little disappointed since I was expecting even more acceleration than my infineon

teklektik said:

Thanks for the detailed response. I'll play with the settings and see what I can come up with

Dumsterdave said:

I'm not doing regency (yet)...

Click to expand...

I don't know what that means...

Click to expand...

Meant to be "regen"

I got a phaserunner and CA3 for my Bafang Ultra but still struggling a bit with wiring it up.
Would like to keep my 3-pin speedsensor and gearsensor.
The Magura is just a 2-pin connector (Normal open switch)
Am I right in assuming this would work?



Instead off using 5V and Ground from the CA3, can I use 5V and G from the phaserunner?
The throttle cable on the Phaserunner is not used but provides 5V and G
It would save some extra wiring.

Daxxie said:

I got a phaserunner and CA3 for my Bafang Ultra but still struggling a bit with wiring it up.
Would like to keep my 3-pin speedsensor and gearsensor.
The Magura is just a 2-pin connector (Normal open switch)
Am I right in assuming this would work?
...
Instead off using 5V and Ground from the CA3, can I use 5V and G from the phaserunner?
The throttle cable on the Phaserunner is not used but provides 5V and G

Click to expand...

Yes - your wiring will work fine.

Yes - stealing +5V and GND from the PR will work fine for either or both of the two sensors. I do something similar and just made up a two wire throttle connector JST to plug in. This will also off-load the small current requirements for speed and gear sensors to the PR instead of the CA - which is a good thing (probably in the order of 4ma each). You can use the CA-DP yellow SPD wire to route the speed signal back to the CA so no extra wire run is necessary there, but you'll still need the run for the blue EBK signal.

teklektik said:

Yes - your wiring will work fine.

Yes - stealing +5V and GND from the PR will work fine for either or both of the two sensors.

Click to expand...

Great. Thanks Teklektik.

Torque sensor also needs 5V so it will be 3 sensors that I wanted to connect.



Found this diagram in another thread (thanks Stancecoke)




Any idea if the Bafang's Torque sensor could work with the phaserunner?