New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

casainho said:
eyebyesickle said:
Jbalat, you've got me really interested now!!! ;) I think I'm going to put aside my prejudice of the KT-LCD3 for a bit :) I gotta try it (as soon as I'm headed, I'm laid up right now).

Casianho, so I wonder, did the slight burning of the motor actually cause any power loss? What in the past could have caused the demagnetization? Too bad there was not a thermal readout to determine exactly how hot it got... I don't know what would cause it to be demagnetized ober than the heat. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
I wrote in that page what I think caused the demagnetization.

I always did run my motor at max power and highest gear on my ebike, for long rides like 1h.
Click to expand...

Gotcha, just breifed that page... I don't think I framed my question/assumption properly -

You state that you instantly felt a decrease in the torque after this burning/cutout event, so I guess it was previously demagnetized already a little way back when you tested consumption against your wife, and then further demagnetized after the cutout event where it got really burned and noticeably lost power? Does that sound accurate?
 
Yes Eye, I agree that a "customization windows computer interface for idiots" (ala Bafang) would be nice. Switching out displays might be nice too but motor functionality is most important (to me).

On a separate note I, and others, noticed that modifying the 2nd and 3rd set of numbers in the data set on the stock firmware has not been working for voltage changes, however is there any changes that can be made to the stock firmware to increase the motor amperage? I assume the stock 52v firmware uses 16 amps or so?

I guess the low voltage cutoff is around 45-46v too, when I had the 48v firmware I could get the battery down to around 42v but today the battery was toast at 46v. I hope my other charger arrives soon so I can start testing the high voltage cutoff for the 52v firmware. I would love 61.5v (4.1v per cell in 15s) or so but anything above 60 would be ok. A 46v low voltage cutoff probably isn't too bad for a 15s battery, although I will probably just shut it down as soon as the battery indicator flashes
 
John and Cecil said:
Yes Eye, I agree that a "customization windows computer interface for idiots" (ala Bafang) would be nice. Switching out displays might be nice too but motor functionality is most important (to me).

On a separate note I, and others, noticed that modifying the 2nd and 3rd set of numbers in the data set on the stock firmware has not been working for voltage changes, however is there any changes that can be made to the stock firmware to increase the motor amperage? I assume the stock 52v firmware uses 16 amps or so?

I guess the low voltage cutoff is around 45-46v too, when I had the 48v firmware I could get the battery down to around 42v but today the battery was toast at 46v. I hope my other charger arrives soon so I can start testing the high voltage cutoff for the 52v firmware. I would love 61.5v (4.1v per cell in 15s) or so but anything above 60 would be ok. A 46v low voltage cutoff probably isn't too bad for a 15s battery, although I will probably just shut it down as soon as the battery indicator flashes
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had a post somewhere after I shared the instructional saying that it seems that now you need to upload new program memory and data memory for the 52v changes... this did not used to be the case, which is confusing. I'll update the instructional with links to different motor profiles for 36v, 48v, and 52v... I believe the amperage setting sticks though, and 00 seems to set it at the default.

I use 17a for 52v versions, and 18a on 48v versions... and I'll supply the programmed files for these. Let me know if you want me to send them before I update the instructional.

Yeah the LVC is around 45v, which doesn't bother me, but I use the motor at full power and once the batt gets near that low, the voltage sag will cause cutout anyway, I figure it's preserving the battery's cycle life... I'm glass half fulling that one ;)
 
What would really be nice if Tongsheng could actually fix the firmware so the amp settings on the vlcd5 would ACTUALLY work! :)

Maybe I will try editing that 3rd number and see if it does anything. I guess the easiest way to tell is to set the amps ridiculously low and see if I notice that first, then try raising it if that works.
 
Yeah.... TS really doesn't want that... Warranty nightmare for them...

Let me know about the amp setting, good chance that's locked in now too, the motor profile will fix that, assuming people want full power haha.
 
Looking for some advice on which motor to go with. I’m going to be installing this on my cyclocross bike for a boost in my commute. Will be road use only (at this point) and will just be looking for PAS. I will also occasionally be pulling our 3 and 4 year old.

Ideally i would get the 36v and wire 2 M18 batteries in series (that i already own) to make my initial purchase much cheaper. However, I’m unsure if the 36v is going to be enough to pull the kids? I’m fairly fit, 170lbs. Should i go 52v right away? Again,don’t need crazy power.

Bonus question - anyone know if batteries are going to get slapped with the 25% tariff?
 
eyebyesickle said:
I would settle for the stock display screens with no additional settings in sight, if we could keep all the customize able settings function in the background, even if they had to be accessed with a programming cable/PC.
Click to expand...

This is very much the way the Bafang software works, the displays stay the same but behind the scenes you can change quite a number of parameters.
 
eyebyesickle said:
Yeah.... TS really doesn't want that... Warranty nightmare for them...

Let me know about the amp setting, good chance that's locked in now too, the motor profile will fix that, assuming people want full power haha.
Click to expand...

Yes amp settings do not function. I tried the display first, 2 amps has the same power as 16amps. Then I edited 3rd number set from 00 to 02 and still the same. Then I tried 18 instead of 00 and also feels the same. It is not a big deal, 16 amps is fine for now. Actually I think my wiring for my current batterymay be limiting my amp output and that is why the throttle feels like it is breaking up at mid range rpms. I used 14 awg for the pos and 16 awg wire for the neg, I probably should be using 14 or 12 awg minimum. I will use better wire on the new 15s battery :)
 
John and Cecil said:
eyebyesickle said:
Yeah.... TS really doesn't want that... Warranty nightmare for them...

Let me know about the amp setting, good chance that's locked in now too, the motor profile will fix that, assuming people want full power haha.
Click to expand...

Yes amp settings do not function. I tried the display first, 2 amps has the same power as 16amps. Then I edited 3rd number set from 00 to 02 and still the same. Then I tried 18 instead of 00 and also feels the same. It is not a big deal, 16 amps is fine for now. Actually I think my wiring for my current batterymay be limiting my amp output and that is why the throttle feels like it is breaking up at mid range rpms. I used 14 awg for the pos and 16 awg wire for the neg, I probably should be using 14 or 12 awg minimum. I will use better wire on the new 15s battery :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the confirmation, I'll update the instructional ASAP and link to profiles... The code needs to be modded in the program memory section too, but it would be easier to just upload the profiles IMO, definitely easier for me to write the instructions for anyway, hahaha
 
Waynemarlow said:
eyebyesickle said:
I would settle for the stock display screens with no additional settings in sight, if we could keep all the customize able settings function in the background, even if they had to be accessed with a programming cable/PC.
Click to expand...

This is very much the way the Bafang software works, the displays stay the same but behind the scenes you can change quite a number of parameters.
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe this would be the most effecient way to make this accessible to the end user - if I could get confirmation this is feasible (I'm pretty sure it is with my limited knowledge, but key word limited there) then I will get someone on it ASAP...

I think this is a better idea than using the new display like I was on about first... Any user could make use of the changes just with a programming cable... It would be cheaper, sooo much more universal, and simpler
 
eyebyesickle said:
Thanks for the confirmation, I'll update the instructional ASAP and link to profiles... The code needs to be modded in the program memory section too, but it would be easier to just upload the profiles IMO, definitely easier for me to write the instructions for anyway, hahaha
Click to expand...

Please do not rush on my account. I am very happy with the motor as it is now. Thank you very much Eye, it is so nice to be able to put my battery on the charger and not need to monitor the charge voltage. I am so looking forward to trying out the 60-61.5v battery. If you find a way to bump the max voltage in the 52v firmware by a volt or two please let me know!

As for the customization software, I wonder if the bafang software could be reverse engineered and then more easily adapted (over writing new code) for at least a few of the features :)

Lol, I just noticed that the wiring that comes with the motor is only 16 awg. That is why I used it on my battery. :(
 
gaber said:
Looking for some advice on which motor to go with. I’m going to be installing this on my cyclocross bike for a boost in my commute. Will be road use only (at this point) and will just be looking for PAS. I will also occasionally be pulling our 3 and 4 year old.

Ideally i would get the 36v and wire 2 M18 batteries in series (that i already own) to make my initial purchase much cheaper. However, I’m unsure if the 36v is going to be enough to pull the kids? I’m fairly fit, 170lbs. Should i go 52v right away? Again,don’t need crazy power.

Bonus question - anyone know if batteries are going to get slapped with the 25% tariff?
Click to expand...

It probably depends on the hills. 250w might be ok on a flat surface but once you start climbing you need more power. I weight 175 and the dog and his carrier is 40 lbs plus the bike and battery weight (60 lbs), and when we climb an 8% grade with our 52v 750w motor I have to pedal lightly to maintain 8-9mph which is currently my lowest gear at 80% max cadence.

I am also trying something similar to you, only I am going with (3) 20v 5ah power tool batteries hooked up in a series (15s2p 63v max 5ah) and then I am going to undercharge them to where they will just work with the 52v controller's max allowable voltage (maybe 60 - 61v max charge). I like the power for the hills, otherwise I can just reduce to eco assist mode and it acts like a 250w motor.

Be warned though, there is an issue with hooking up multiple power tool batteries in a series. If one of the fail safes in the battery bms trips the power of both batteries will be going through that switch and it could burn out, etc. I am guessing the risk and damage may be limited since the motor will go below the low voltage threshold and cut out, but I am not knowledgeable and electricity is not my friend! Eventually I plan on rewiring my 3 batteries into one 15s bms but I am waiting until after I move since only sub 100wh batteries are allowed when traveling on airplanes.
 
eyebyesickle said:
Waynemarlow said:
eyebyesickle said:
I would settle for the stock display screens with no additional settings in sight, if we could keep all the customize able settings function in the background, even if they had to be accessed with a programming cable/PC.
Click to expand...

This is very much the way the Bafang software works, the displays stay the same but behind the scenes you can change quite a number of parameters.
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe this would be the most effecient way to make this accessible to the end user - if I could get confirmation this is feasible (I'm pretty sure it is with my limited knowledge, but key word limited there) then I will get someone on it ASAP...

I think this is a better idea than using the new display like I was on about first... Any user could make use of the changes just with a programming cable... It would be cheaper, sooo much more universal, and simpler
Click to expand...
Yes, it is possible to have a software to configure the firmware and make it work with the limited stock LCD, although I don't like it for my bicycles were I prefer to change the configuration parameters in real time, on the LCD without the need to connect to a computer. I want to be on a long trip and without the need to pack a computer with me just to change the parameters.
So, I will focus on LCD and I want my code to be clean and simple, to reduce the probability of bugs and easy to understand by others. I think it is the LCD that need to be programmed and adapted to the motor controller firmware and not the contrary. I don't want to mess my firmware to support various LCDs just because they are fancy to users. I like much more the idea of Cycle Analyst that is not beautiful but packs a lot of features and is more for technical users.

If you are looking to have beautiful interfaces/LCDs/softwares to users, then you will need to invest youself. I hope your users will want to pay that investment.
 
John and Cecil said:
Please do not rush on my account. I am very happy with the motor as it is now. Thank you very much Eye, it is so nice to be able to put my battery on the charger and not need to monitor the charge voltage. I am so looking forward to trying out the 60-61.5v battery. If you find a way to bump the max voltage in the 52v firmware by a volt or two please let me know!
Click to expand...

Hi,

Thanks, but I don't like to have the bad info out there! As for the high voltage cut/HVC, I am not sure... And remember, it's highly likely for the voltage to drop 1 or 2 due to sag on those little wires when any power goes through em, so you might be in luck . Especially if you have long wiring from the battery... I can supply a profile with higher voltage limit, but it will take off the low end/LVC, which might not matter if you're using a 15s, but do be advised of this. Let me know how it works out, thanks.
 
casainho said:
Yes, it is possible to have a software to configure the firmware and make it work with the limited stock LCD, although I don't like it for my bicycles were I prefer to change the configuration parameters in real time, on the LCD without the need to connect to a computer. I want to be on a long trip and without the need to pack a computer with me just to change the parameters.
So, I will focus on LCD and I want my code to be clean and simple, to reduce the probability of bugs and easy to understand by others. I think it is the LCD that need to be programmed and adapted to the motor controller firmware and not the contrary. I don't want to mess my firmware to support various LCDs just because they are fancy to users. I like much more the idea of Cycle Analyst that is not beautiful but packs a lot of features and is more for technical users.

If you are looking to have beautiful interfaces/LCDs/softwares to users, then you will need to invest youself. I hope your users will want to pay that investment.
Click to expand...

Great, thanks for the confirmation. As for the reasons behind this, it seems you have missed the point. It's not about 'fancy LCDs'. It's simply about making this universal and useable...with what comes with the TSDZ2 in the first place...

Right now it is very hard for the average person to implement this firmware, and it involves an extra purchase of the KT-LCD3... and then opening that up and modifying it to reprogram it... So as is now, it is more expensive and difficult. Surely you have noticed alot of the feedback from non users already requested the use of stock displays... I'm sure this is partially because they like those displays better, but you must take into the consideration the ease and availability - and cost...

Unfortunately it seems what you prefer for your own use is clashing with your desire to make this available to people... No worries I'm only appreciative of your work, but I hope this is not lost on you and you realize the true intention here...

Overall your posts regarding other displays seem to be a bit negative, and I prefer to be positive (sound familiar? I hope you appreciate the fun I poke at you at least). I really hope you understand the intention behind this, because I try to overly repetitively state the reasoning, but it doesn't seem well received.

Reprogramming the stock LCDs is also not a good solution, because you have the same problem - it is very advanced for average people to do, more work, and would require them to buy a new LCD that would be compatible if they don't modify it themselves, and that option still would require a distributor to have reprogrammed the displays themselves.

I do agree that changing the settings from the LCD on the go is great, but if your goal is for people to be able to use this, it may be important to take into consideration what the masses want, and are capable of doing.

Again, this is about having the lowest cost, and ease of implementation and use for the end user. For many/the most people to adopt this system, we need both of these.

I wouldn't charge the end user more, that's not why I'm here... Sure I sell the TSDZ2, but I promise you, that doesn't get me very far, especially with the margins I work with etc... Who knows how much longer the TSDZ2 will even be relevant honestly...

I definitely wasn't asking you to do this, I hope that was clear, in fact I did mention investing my own time and money to get this done, which is what I plan to do - I just had to make sure it was feasible, because some of your past posts made it sound like this was not possible. Other than your personal preference, is there a reason you so heavily resist ising other displays and seem to really not like this idea?

Before I get started negotiating with someone capable of making these changes to your code (once 'finished') that I propose... I would request one thing from you - I would ask that you give your word that you will not request I halt, restrict me, or in any way attempt to/hinder my distributing your modified firmware commercially.

Or would that be irrelevant if we change it 30% (har har).

Thanks again!
 
eyebyesickle said:
Other than your personal preference, is there a reason you so heavily resist ising other displays and seem to really not like this idea?
Click to expand...
For various reasons, I don't think it can happen unless o lot of resources are used. And I also think, as you said, TSDZ2 can be kind of temporary, we never know this and so is risky to invest a lot of resources.

eyebyesickle said:
Before I get started negotiating with someone capable of making these changes to your code (once 'finished') that I propose... I would request one thing from you - I would ask that you give your word that you will not request I halt, restrict me, or in any way attempt to/hinder my distributing your modified firmware commercially.
Click to expand...
I promise and only if you follow the firmware license GPL License, Version 3.
 
casainho said:
eyebyesickle said:
Other than your personal preference, is there a reason you so heavily resist ising other displays and seem to really not like this idea?
Click to expand...
For various reasons, I don't think it can happen unless o lot of resources are used. And I also think, as you said, TSDZ2 can be kind of temporary, we never know this and so is risky to invest a lot of resources.

eyebyesickle said:
Before I get started negotiating with someone capable of making these changes to your code (once 'finished') that I propose... I would request one thing from you - I would ask that you give your word that you will not request I halt, restrict me, or in any way attempt to/hinder my distributing your modified firmware commercially.
Click to expand...
I promise and only if you follow the firmware license GPL License, Version 3.
Click to expand...

Well, as far as using alot of resources being risky, we don't have to worry about that one because I don't have alot of resources!!! Hahaha true story. This will depend on me finding the right guy (or girl)...

To be clear about the GPL V3, you are referring to:

"Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed."

So once we make the software, AND the Motor/controller code to match (assuming I/the royal WE follow through) you require us to release the code under the GPL v3? Is that what you mean?

I don't care if they change it after we make it, why would we want to stop that? Isn't that what open source is about?

Thanks for the quick responses, I just want to make sure I'm crystal clear before I hit the college campuses with a TSDZ2 bike and a twinkle in my eye


EDIT: Reading more into it (I tunnel visioned in on that quote) it seems it's just the open source code, and it will be available and anyone is free to copy/modify/do what they want with it?
 
Also, TS released and withdrew it's own software and programming cable for the TSDZ2 once upon a time... If I can get them to give me that software, I'm sure it would be alot easier to just adapt that...



Time to sweet talk Tongsheng - this could be within reach
 
eyebyesickle said:
Hi,

Thanks, but I don't like to have the bad info out there! As for the high voltage cut/HVC, I am not sure... And remember, it's highly likely for the voltage to drop 1 or 2 due to sag on those little wires when any power goes through em, so you might be in luck . Especially if you have long wiring from the battery... I can supply a profile with higher voltage limit, but it will take off the low end/LVC, which might not matter if you're using a 15s, but do be advised of this. Let me know how it works out, thanks.
Click to expand...

Right now I am waiting on the charger. I ordered the small charger 5 weeks ago to charge the batteries individually but it is still not here. I just ordered the large adjustable charger today and that should be here in a few weeks. I already have the batteries wired up so I just need the charger. The second it arrives I will start testing the actual HVC of my controller and also test if I can kick it on at higher voltages with the throttle kick.

Raising the LVC does not matter, the bottom of the batteries don't have as much power as the top. Assuming the HVC is about 60v now with the 52v firmware (my 48v had HVC of about 55.8v) then the hvc would only need a boost of maybe 1.5v for 4.1v per cell, which I guess would only raise the lvc about 1v.
 
So here is the feedback of jbalat after testing the option to start motor assistance only after rotating a bit the pedals:

jbalat said:
Just wanted to say I just tried the latest version and it works really well !!
Just like the original firmware it will behave when you are standing on the pedals waiting for the lights but if you let it nudge forwards a bit the motor will cut in momentarily.
Click to expand...

So, there are 2 options about motor assistance startup of with or without pedals rotation, that can be configured on config.h file of the firmware:

1. Immediate motor assistance startup when a small force/torque is applied to pedals:
Code: 
#define MOTOR_ASSISTANCE_CAN_START_WITHOUT_PEDAL_ROTATION 1

OR

2. Motor assistance startup only when a small force/torque is applied to pedals AND pedals rotate a small bit (6 RPM cadence):
Code: 
#define MOTOR_ASSISTANCE_CAN_START_WITHOUT_PEDAL_ROTATION 0
 
Its the cable that's needed, I'm surprised that a non OEM unit is not yet available. The software would follow pretty quick once a cheap source of interface cables were made available.
 
John and Cecil said:
gaber said:
Looking for some advice on which motor to go with. I’m going to be installing this on my cyclocross bike for a boost in my commute. Will be road use only (at this point) and will just be looking for PAS. I will also occasionally be pulling our 3 and 4 year old.

Ideally i would get the 36v and wire 2 M18 batteries in series (that i already own) to make my initial purchase much cheaper. However, I’m unsure if the 36v is going to be enough to pull the kids? I’m fairly fit, 170lbs. Should i go 52v right away? Again,don’t need crazy power.

Bonus question - anyone know if batteries are going to get slapped with the 25% tariff?
Click to expand...

It probably depends on the hills. 250w might be ok on a flat surface but once you start climbing you need more power. I weight 175 and the dog and his carrier is 40 lbs plus the bike and battery weight (60 lbs), and when we climb an 8% grade with our 52v 750w motor I have to pedal lightly to maintain 8-9mph which is currently my lowest gear at 80% max cadence.

I am also trying something similar to you, only I am going with (3) 20v 5ah power tool batteries hooked up in a series (15s2p 63v max 5ah) and then I am going to undercharge them to where they will just work with the 52v controller's max allowable voltage (maybe 60 - 61v max charge). I like the power for the hills, otherwise I can just reduce to eco assist mode and it acts like a 250w motor.

Be warned though, there is an issue with hooking up multiple power tool batteries in a series. If one of the fail safes in the battery bms trips the power of both batteries will be going through that switch and it could burn out, etc. I am guessing the risk and damage may be limited since the motor will go below the low voltage threshold and cut out, but I am not knowledgeable and electricity is not my friend! Eventually I plan on rewiring my 3 batteries into one 15s bms but I am waiting until after I move since only sub 100wh batteries are allowed when traveling on airplanes.
Click to expand...

Thanks John and Cecil! Anyone else have an opinion/experience on the matter?
 
Thanks for telling casainho, I wanted to keep the Lcdv5 because I use the motor disconnectors on the brakes so I stay with him. R.
 
John and Cecil said:
eyebyesickle said:
Yeah.... TS really doesn't want that... Warranty nightmare for them...

Let me know about the amp setting, good chance that's locked in now too, the motor profile will fix that, assuming people want full power haha.
Click to expand...

Yes amp settings do not function. I tried the display first, 2 amps has the same power as 16amps. Then I edited 3rd number set from 00 to 02 and still the same. Then I tried 18 instead of 00 and also feels the same. It is not a big deal, 16 amps is fine for now. ....
Click to expand...

Just to be clear ...(because there have been comments to the contrary on this ).. You are saying that even altering the settings in the firmware, you cannot change the amp limit on the controller ?
Eyebyesickle.....yes, that TS software and interface looks to be the ultimate...AND gives simple voltage and amp changes.
For what its worth, i too have no interest in advanced display features, i hardly even look at it !
 
eyebyesickle said:
Also, TS released and withdrew it's own software and programming cable for the TSDZ2 once upon a time... If I can get them to give me that software, I'm sure it would be alot easier to just adapt that...

tongshengprogrammingcable.jpg

Time to sweet talk Tongsheng - this could be within reach
Click to expand...

I looked on the web a bit yesterday but I did not see anything. Do you know the actual name of the program that was released? It is possible someone uploaded/shared the program using usenet , ftp site, etc and it still may be there.
 
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