New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Aug 19 2018 9:37am

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 19 2018 9:28am
Just to be clear ...(because there have been comments to the contrary on this ).. You are saying that even altering the settings in the firmware, you cannot change the amp limit on the controller ?
Correct, I was unable to alter the amp limit of my controller by changing the 3rd set of numbers in the controller data memory using the programming cable. I was also unable to alter the battery voltage by changing the 2nd set of numbers in the data memory. I suspect that Tongsheng changed their firmware programming (or something else) so these data changes in the data memory do not work anymore. Perhaps it still works for people with older firmware?

It appears that the changes must now be made somewhere in the programming data in the firmware, or perhaps in both the programming data and the memory data.

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Thanks for the videos jbalat

Post by angusinalberta » Aug 19 2018 11:35am

To jbalat
If anyone is interested I just finished Part 4
part 4.png
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Thanks for the time and effort in producing these videos.
Finally a set of coherent instructions for the rest of us.

Angus

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Aug 19 2018 6:42pm

gaber wrote:
Aug 19 2018 6:32am
Thanks John and Cecil! Anyone else have an opinion/experience on the matter?
My mate and I decided to go for the 36v motor because we wanted to keep the weight down (less battery weight). It is a bit weak for towing so I would recommend the 48v or 52 otherwise if you need more power go for the bbs02 750.

If you plan on installing the opensource firmware then the 36v will be able to deliver the power you need just because it unlocks the max Amps and it delivers the power much better in the higher rpm than the original firmware does
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

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Re: Thanks for the videos jbalat

Post by jbalat » Aug 19 2018 6:46pm

angusinalberta wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:35am
To jbalat
Thanks for the time and effort in producing these videos.
Finally a set of coherent instructions for the rest of us.

Angus
You are welcome. It really is a pain trying to figure everything out but well worth the effort.

If only we could buy some male and female connectors then the install would be much easier !!
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Aug 19 2018 8:54pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 18 2018 7:03pm
EDIT: Reading more into it (I tunnel visioned in on that quote) it seems it's just the open source code, and it will be available and anyone is free to copy/modify/do what they want with it?
Yes and I would like to ask that your firmware will be shared on github as current one is.

And it must kept the same GPL V3 License.
If you do not want to comply with this, then please do not use this firmware and instead develop your own.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

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Re: Thanks for the videos jbalat

Post by bart1006 » Aug 20 2018 2:27am

jbalat wrote:
Aug 19 2018 6:46pm
angusinalberta wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:35am
To jbalat
Thanks for the time and effort in producing these videos.
Finally a set of coherent instructions for the rest of us.

Angus
You are welcome. It really is a pain trying to figure everything out but well worth the effort.

If only we could buy some male and female connectors then the install would be much easier !!
Hello jbalat,

Thanks a lot for your effort for making these video's. It was the reason I also ordered the motor and the lcd3 to go play around with it.
If I got my all the stuff working I will post my feedback!

What exactly do you mean with if we only could buy some male and female connectors?

Regards,

Bart

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 20 2018 4:30am

casainho wrote:
Aug 19 2018 8:54pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 18 2018 7:03pm
EDIT: Reading more into it (I tunnel visioned in on that quote) it seems it's just the open source code, and it will be available and anyone is free to copy/modify/do what they want with it?
Yes and I would like to ask that your firmware will be shared on github as current one is.

And it must kept the same GPL V3 License.
If you do not want to comply with this, then please do not use this firmware and instead develop your own.
Hmm... I wonder how much I have to change it to legally consider it our own developed firmware? Hahaha just kidding. Of course - the whole point is to make this more available... ! I can respect the GPL V3 license. We'll see what we can work up over here pretty soon... Im trying to get the TS software and some connectors for a batch of TSDZ2 programming cables (same design as BBS programming cable)... Hopefully I can pull all the little parts together for this...

Sounds like you're making good progress with the firmware! I can't wait to heal up a little more and test it out!
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Aug 20 2018 5:46am

Bart,
If eyebyesickle can get some programming cables made up with a male plug and a KT-lcd3 display fitted with a female socket (both 6 pin and 8 pin) then all the hard work is done.

I was thinking of 3D printing them but they are so damn small. Dunno might give it a try anyway.
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gaber » Aug 20 2018 9:19am

Order placed! Decided it would be worth it to go 52v and future proof things a bit more. Did a quick google this morning on the tariffs and realized they were going into effect in 3 days! That was just the push I needed to pull the trigger. So pumped to be jumping in after over a year of intensive reading and hemming and hawing.

Quick battery question. I'm leaning towards going with a pack from EM3ev and am trying to decide on which cells would be best. The 52v 750w TSDZ2 is rated at 18a. Is that the continuous draw? If in the future I wanted to play around with the opensource firmware is there a chance that would be raised? I'm not sure what these motors can reliably handle, so I'd like to make sure I end up with a pack that is capable of pushing it. If high amps would be a big concern, I'll probably pony up for the 35E cells for the 20% increase in range.

Here are the specs from their site.
Image
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bart1006 » Aug 20 2018 11:48am

jbalat wrote:
Aug 20 2018 5:46am
Bart,
If eyebyesickle can get some programming cables made up with a male plug and a KT-lcd3 display fitted with a female socket (both 6 pin and 8 pin) then all the hard work is done.

I was thinking of 3D printing them but they are so damn small. Dunno might give it a try anyway.
Is this not an option for your idea?

For the s6 cable:
https://www.e-bike-technologies.de/inde ... -s6-detail

and then just solder a 2x5 female on the other (easy) side:

https://opencircuit.nl/Product/12352/Fe ... 2x5-2.54mm

If this is what you mean then I can order the parts and give it a try.

Regards,
Bart.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Aug 20 2018 12:24pm

gaber wrote:
Aug 20 2018 9:19am
Order placed! Decided it would be worth it to go 52v and future proof things a bit more. Did a quick google this morning on the tariffs and realized they were going into effect in 3 days! That was just the push I needed to pull the trigger. So pumped to be jumping in after over a year of intensive reading and hemming and hawing.

Quick battery question. I'm leaning towards going with a pack from EM3ev and am trying to decide on which cells would be best. The 52v 750w TSDZ2 is rated at 18a. Is that the continuous draw? If in the future I wanted to play around with the opensource firmware is there a chance that would be raised? I'm not sure what these motors can reliably handle, so I'd like to make sure I end up with a pack that is capable of pushing it. If high amps would be a big concern, I'll probably pony up for the 35E cells for the 20% increase in range.

Here are the specs from their site.
Image
I am currently running a 14s1p ego 52v 2ah power tool battery pack that has cells that support 20a discharge , and I appear to be running at full or near full power. I think the stock firmware pushes 16a, and Eye has modded stock firmware to run 17 or 18a. I am not sure how much power can be pushed anyway, as some have melted their motors with 18a and the motor wiring is only 16 awg. I think 20-25a continuous battery pack is probably ok. If you get a 2p pack you would need 10a each cell, 4p 5a each cell. I believe they may lose discharge capacity over time so perhaps 25a discharge (per the entire battery and not per the cell) would be ok. I do not know very much about batteries though.

I will be testing my new battery soon. I have 3x 20v 5ah harbor freight hercules batteries hooked up in a series. I am waiting for the charger but I think I can use my 20v laptop power supply to charge them individually with a 60v max voltage. I took the batteries apart and they are each loaded with 10 samsung 25r (2500mah / 20a discharge) cells. For $50 total it will end up being a 15s2p 56v 5ah battery with 30 samsung 25r cells.

If I was not moving overseas I would pick up 3 more when ebay has the 20% coupon and un-solder the stock bms's and then wire them up to a 15s4p bms configuration for maybe $130 in parts total. I think it can be done without soldering too, just drill small holes into the metal tabs already soldered onto the batteries and use wiring connectors to attach them to the new bms.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AZUR » Aug 20 2018 12:29pm

gaber wrote:
Aug 20 2018 9:19am
Order placed! Decided it would be worth it to go 52v and future proof things a bit more. Did a quick google this morning on the tariffs and realized they were going into effect in 3 days! That was just the push I needed to pull the trigger. So pumped to be jumping in after over a year of intensive reading and hemming and hawing.

Quick battery question. I'm leaning towards going with a pack from EM3ev and am trying to decide on which cells would be best. The 52v 750w TSDZ2 is rated at 18a. Is that the continuous draw? If in the future I wanted to play around with the opensource firmware is there a chance that would be raised? I'm not sure what these motors can reliably handle, so I'd like to make sure I end up with a pack that is capable of pushing it. If high amps would be a big concern, I'll probably pony up for the 35E cells for the 20% increase in range.

Here are the specs from their site.
Image
Hi,

Samsung 35E : ~25A Continuous, 34A Max Burst Current - battery spec Jumbo Skark .

SPEC Samsung 35E gives 8 A continuous and 13A burst. And you have 5 in parallel. (8x5=40A and 65A). The limitation is the Jumbo Shark BMS not the Samsung 35E.

This Jumbo Shark is very good.

18A TSDZ is Burst Current unless you put you motor always running at the maximum power for a long time. Anyway is far less 25A continuous of the battery.

And one of the most important things is that you have:

from WM3ev spec:

"With our BMS you can view various battery data, such as: cell voltage levels, temperature, instantaneous charge/discharge current, capacity (genuine SOC, measured Ah and remaining Ah), data log, error indication (on matching LED panel) and it all links to your phone with a continually updated and improved App. "

Regards
Azur

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Aug 20 2018 1:54pm

Re the wiring, one of the pitfalls of all Ebikes is waterproofing the cables.

Why not fit a 8 pin Higo https://www.e-bike-technologies.de/inde ... -b8-detail to the main LCD3 cable and fit a 6 pin male https://www.e-bike-technologies.de/inde ... -s6-detailto the programming header of the KT-LCD3, you have all the bases covered and its fully waterproof.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gaber » Aug 20 2018 7:56pm

AZUR wrote:
Aug 20 2018 12:29pm
Hi,

Samsung 35E : ~25A Continuous, 34A Max Burst Current - battery spec Jumbo Skark .

SPEC Samsung 35E gives 8 A continuous and 13A burst. And you have 5 in parallel. (8x5=40A and 65A). The limitation is the Jumbo Shark BMS not the Samsung 35E.

This Jumbo Shark is very good.

18A TSDZ is Burst Current unless you put you motor always running at the maximum power for a long time. Anyway is far less 25A continuous of the battery.

And one of the most important things is that you have:

from WM3ev spec:

"With our BMS you can view various battery data, such as: cell voltage levels, temperature, instantaneous charge/discharge current, capacity (genuine SOC, measured Ah and remaining Ah), data log, error indication (on matching LED panel) and it all links to your phone with a continually updated and improved App. "

Regards
Azur
That's great info! Thank's a ton. I hadn't seen that last blurb (about all the data you can get and the phone app (!!) on their site anywhere before. Where is it located?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 20 2018 8:59pm

Interesting connector ideas. I love that ebiketech.de website... I remember drooling over the BBS compatible CAv3 he makes... Sooooooo clean. The only thing is the single connectors are kind of pricey.

I've been saving a bunch of spare 6 and 8 pin connectors, both male and female, but not near enough... And it's hard to get your hands on these connectors, the 8 pin female is harder/more expensive... the speed sensor extensions are a good source for a male and female 6 pin, and super reasonable if you buy bulk... The STlink can be found for a few bucks, I think we could get these available for the same cost as a BBS programming cable... That's reasonable, right?

As for connecting the KT-LCD3 display to the TSDZ2... IMO (or preference) there are two ways to go... For the 8 pin TSDZ2... Either replace the 8 pin male on the controller with a 8 pin female, or do the same for a BBS EBUS 1 to 4 cable... Of course you modify the pinout... But then you have the BBS cable, easy waterproof hookups for the throttle and brakes, which are readily available for the BBS, then also you can get the KT-LCD3 with a 5 pin green higo, so you don't have to change that. So, you can hook it all up just by buying the BBS cable, then switching the male 8 pin on either the BBS cable or the TSDZ2 controller to 8 pin female and you have all waterproof plug and play connections.

For the 6 pin hookup with the KT-LCD3, you can just use the female end of the speed sensor extension cable (the male end was used for the programming cable) and thats that...

So one way, you need a BBS cable, a 5 pin higo KT-LCD3, and a female 8 pin connector.., the other way you just need the female 6 pin connector and any KT-LCD3... Not too bad...

Of course this isn't taking into consideration the programming of the KT-LCD3...
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Aug 20 2018 11:38pm

This was out of stock
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2016-5n-qtqt

So they sent me one of these for the same price
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-cm-jnqg

It has 2 males and 1 female (6 pin only) but I had to cut them back to expose the pins in the back of the connectors. A bit of work but it means I dont need to hack into any existing cables.
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Last edited by jbalat on Aug 21 2018 5:28am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AZUR » Aug 21 2018 5:23am

gaber wrote:
Aug 20 2018 7:56pm
AZUR wrote:
Aug 20 2018 12:29pm
Hi,

Samsung 35E : ~25A Continuous, 34A Max Burst Current - battery spec Jumbo Skark .

SPEC Samsung 35E gives 8 A continuous and 13A burst. And you have 5 in parallel. (8x5=40A and 65A). The limitation is the Jumbo Shark BMS not the Samsung 35E.

This Jumbo Shark is very good.

18A TSDZ is Burst Current unless you put you motor always running at the maximum power for a long time. Anyway is far less 25A continuous of the battery.

And one of the most important things is that you have:

from WM3ev spec:

"With our BMS you can view various battery data, such as: cell voltage levels, temperature, instantaneous charge/discharge current, capacity (genuine SOC, measured Ah and remaining Ah), data log, error indication (on matching LED panel) and it all links to your phone with a continually updated and improved App. "

Regards
Azur
That's great info! Thank's a ton. I hadn't seen that last blurb (about all the data you can get and the phone app (!!) on their site anywhere before. Where is it located?
foto bms.jpg
https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-52v-14s5p- ... e-battery/

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gaber » Aug 21 2018 8:56am

AZUR wrote:
Aug 21 2018 5:23am

foto bms.jpg

https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-52v-14s5p- ... e-battery/
I looked right past that (man is there a lot of info on those postings) - thanks!

Another question for the masses - how much consumption are you seeing on the 52v 750w motors? Trying to figure out how much range I can expect (and decide b/t super and jumbo shark).
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Aug 21 2018 9:08am

gaber wrote:
Aug 21 2018 8:56am
AZUR wrote:
Aug 21 2018 5:23am

foto bms.jpg

https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-52v-14s5p- ... e-battery/
I looked right past that (man is there a lot of info on those postings) - thanks!

Another question for the masses - how much consumption are you seeing on the 52v 750w motors? Trying to figure out how much range I can expect (and decide b/t super and jumbo shark).
From my experience I would say 2.5-3 miles per ah on full power, perhaps a bit higher for lighter weights and narrower tires. We are getting about 5 miles on turbo assist (20mph flat, 8mph up hills, light pedaling) from a 52v 2ah battery with 275lbs total weight and 3" wide tires inflated to maximum. Range would go up considerably by reducing assist level.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bart1006 » Aug 22 2018 3:42am

I received my tsdz2 kit but have some troubles maybe you guys can help me out or give me directions to find the problem.
First I just installed all the stock components to see if it works but the motor is doing nothing.

I installed all the components (except the brakes) on the bikes.
The lcd5 works and also the speedometer works.
The battery meter indicates it is full on the lcd5.

But when I pedal, walk assist and also when I use the throttle the motor isn't doing anything.
I tried different "set-ups" disconnecting the throttle and the speedometer but it doesn't help.
I tried some different connectors to be sure everything as a good connection.

Also tried one other thing: in a manual online (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fr27O ... mRNKkLJ-HU) I found instructions to read the torque signal (TE menu) and torque signal initial value (TE1):

Schermafbeelding 2018-08-22 om 10.23.34.png
Schermafbeelding 2018-08-22 om 10.23.34.png (44.63 KiB) Viewed 453 times

My signal is 00068 and when I turn my pedals it goes to 00170 and when I stop it goes back to 00068.
I have no idea what the values should be but maybe somebody know more about it.

Does anyone have a suggestion what I can do more to get it to work?
Last edited by bart1006 on Aug 22 2018 4:08am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Aug 22 2018 3:54am

bart1006 wrote:
Aug 22 2018 3:42am
But when I pedal, walk assist and also when I use the throttle the motor isn't doing anything.
I tried different "set-ups" disconnecting the throttle and the speedometer but it doesn't help.
I tried some different connectors to be sure everything as a good connection.
If you use our OpenSource firmware, you get much more information about the system like throttle input value, brakes, torque sensor, etc. Also is has no limitations like voltage limits configurations like the original firmware has, so it should be easier to make TSDZ2 work and debug if needed.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bart1006 » Aug 22 2018 4:10am

casainho wrote:
Aug 22 2018 3:54am
bart1006 wrote:
Aug 22 2018 3:42am
But when I pedal, walk assist and also when I use the throttle the motor isn't doing anything.
I tried different "set-ups" disconnecting the throttle and the speedometer but it doesn't help.
I tried some different connectors to be sure everything as a good connection.
If you use our OpenSource firmware, you get much more information about the system like throttle input value, brakes, torque sensor, etc. Also is has no limitations like voltage limits configurations like the original firmware has, so it should be easier to make TSDZ2 work and debug if needed.
Thanks for you quick reply. Installing the opensource software was my next step ;-)
But first I want to be sure the motor works because of the warranty. I will suggest it as an option to flash the motor to the seller ;-)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Aug 22 2018 4:28am

bart1006 wrote:
Aug 22 2018 4:10am
Thanks for you quick reply. Installing the opensource software was my next step ;-)
But first I want to be sure the motor works because of the warranty. I will suggest it as an option to flash the motor to the seller ;-)
Funny about the default analog torque signal at rest is 68, mine is 40 and I think Casainho's is 50. The fact that it changes is all you really want to check which is a good sign. But don't worry the standard firmware and opensource auto-calibrate on startup so keep your feet off the pedals for a few seconds.

I'm guessing your battery voltage may be too high.
Which voltage motor did you get and what is the current voltage of your battery ? They may have sent you a 36v by accident LOL
(If you take the cap off (5 screws) there is a sticker under the motor that states voltage and max amps)
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bart1006 » Aug 22 2018 4:49am

jbalat wrote:
Aug 22 2018 4:28am
bart1006 wrote:
Aug 22 2018 4:10am
Thanks for you quick reply. Installing the opensource software was my next step ;-)
But first I want to be sure the motor works because of the warranty. I will suggest it as an option to flash the motor to the seller ;-)
Funny about the default analog torque signal at rest is 68, mine is 40 and I think Casainho's is 50. The fact that it changes is all you really want to check which is a good sign. But don't worry the standard firmware and opensource auto-calibrate on startup so keep your feet off the pedals for a few seconds.

I'm guessing your battery voltage may be too high.
Which voltage motor did you get and what is the current voltage of your battery ? They may have sent you a 36v by accident LOL
(If you take the cap off (5 screws) there is a sticker under the motor that states voltage and max amps)
I ordered a 36v kit and my battery is 10s and now 40v so not complete full.
I start up with my feet off the pedals and then the initial torque value is 68 and when i push the pedal it goes to 170 and then back.

On this topic I also read about only update an improved firmware of kt-lcd3 if I am correct. Maybe that would give some more possiblities to more info, I was looking for an overview or more information about this improved kt-lcd3 firmware do you know where to find more info about this?

casainho   100 MW

100 MW
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Joined: Feb 14 2011 2:43pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Aug 22 2018 4:53am

bart1006 wrote:
Aug 22 2018 4:49am
On this topic I also read about only update an improved firmware of kt-lcd3 if I am correct. Maybe that would give some more possiblities to more info, I was looking for an overview or more information about this improved kt-lcd3 firmware do you know where to find more info about this?
Because the OpenSource firmware is now much better than the original improved. Original improved was meant to be only temporary and so I do not want to put energy on it, I will instead over the time, document the OpenSource and possible delete the original improved.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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