Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

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dirt huffer   1 W

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Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by dirt huffer » Aug 30 2018 12:02pm

This trend could be good for eBikers in the future - with some manufacturers coming out with longer frames, effectively allowing us to fit more battery and have a more stable riding platform. For the longest time dirt bikes and downhill bikes have practically had the handlebars mounted on top of the suspension fork to improve control. People thought that bikes with short stems couldn't climb, but that's been proven wrong. Even Scott Bikes is offering some bikes stem-less.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/2019-vira ... unch2.html

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by MadRhino » Aug 30 2018 9:58pm

Newer DH bikes are longer, lower, more ‘pedalable’, as compared to the gravity bikes that we had before. They are not as strong though, getting lighter and skinnier. Yet the spread use and refinement in CF layering, had retained the stiffness of the overbuilt previous generation. They will be good to build ebikes but not so much more space for batteries inside the triangle, for most of the length extension is coming from slacken geometry of suspension components fitting. But the smaller tubings and slight extension of the frames, should make some of them easier to build with frame battery boxes. At least, most of them now have room to fit a longer controller under the top tube.

For high power and hard riding though, I believe that I will still prefer overbuilt old school frames. We slack the fork angle and extend the swingarm with custom dropout plates, making them longer anyway. My street bike actual wheelbase is 51 inch, long enough to make it easy to control the wheelie in hard 20+ kw acceleration. I am making the next one inch longer on the tail.
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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by Chalo » Aug 31 2018 3:45am

dirt huffer wrote:
Aug 30 2018 12:02pm
Even Scott Bikes is offering some bikes stem-less.
That's what happens when you try to fit a boy to a man's bike.

Whatever works. But fashion is arbitrary and it reverses for no reason after a time.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by kdog » Aug 31 2018 4:44am

Not so much fashion. Dh bikes have always been slacker, it's just that with the increased popularity of the enduro style, more bikes are progressing to slacker angles. Xc bikes will always be more upright and forward to develop power/climb etc. I've been an xc rider for 20yrs but have be bitten hard by the enduro class. I'm never going back to the twitchy unstable 'about to go AoverT' bikes of yesterday (and yes I'm quite a good rider!) . I'm riding stuff I would only dream about in my twenties ( granted I was 10x quicker then!) ...that's due to improvements in tech and the geometry it allows. I've found huge improvements have happened in the last 4-5yrs. Loving where the development has taken us...

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by dirt huffer » Aug 31 2018 12:43pm

MadRhino wrote:
Aug 30 2018 9:58pm
Newer DH bikes are longer, lower, more ‘pedalable’, as compared to the gravity bikes that we had before. They are not as strong though, getting lighter and skinnier. Yet the spread use and refinement in CF layering, had retained the stiffness of the overbuilt previous generation. They will be good to build ebikes but not so much more space for batteries inside the triangle, for most of the length extension is coming from slacken geometry of suspension components fitting. But the smaller tubings and slight extension of the frames, should make some of them easier to build with frame battery boxes. At least, most of them now have room to fit a longer controller under the top tube.
That's true about the triangle getting narrower as bikes get lower to fit longer dropper posts. Although i think this new combination stem and handlebar could benefit a lot of eBikers to size-up on a frame and get a larger frame as long as the standover height isn't an issue.

Chalo wrote:
Aug 31 2018 3:45am
dirt huffer wrote:
Aug 30 2018 12:02pm
Even Scott Bikes is offering some bikes stem-less.
That's what happens when you try to fit a boy to a man's bike.

Whatever works. But fashion is arbitrary and it reverses for no reason after a time.

Having been riding and racing mountain bikes for the last 15 years, of just about every sort of offroad bike, i have to say, geometry and the trend to wider handlebar/shorter stem have really dialed in the handling of mountain bikes and made them so much more capable then the bikes of years past - which had long stems and narrow handlebars and steep head tube angles. I think most eBikers would greatly benefit from shorter stems and much wider handlebars then these narrow bars I keep seeing.

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by Chalo » Aug 31 2018 12:47pm

I think it's inevitable that as e-MTBs become more common, they will acquire more motorcycle-like geometry.

As for design trends in today's MTBs being subject to fashion or not, they definitely are. Since MTB riding is usually only fooling around of one kind or another, even what kind of riding that is, is an expression of fashion.

Consider bikepacking and gravel grinding, which are recent fads that would have been considered MTB riding before they were fads. How many folks are still into dual slalom? There used to be a category of bike especially for that. Street trials? Adventure touring? Hucking? Single speeding? Before they were a thing, they were MTB riding.

Soon, the industry will want to sell a new round of specialty bikes, so they'll promote a different kind of riding fad that uses a different kind of bike. And then that will be the kind of riding that new bikes are so much better at.

And surely there will be those here who claim that if you're going to go electric, you absolutely need whatever conspicuous characteristics those latest bikes have.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by ferret » Aug 31 2018 3:15pm

Chalo wrote:
Aug 31 2018 12:47pm
Since MTB riding is usually only fooling around of one kind or another, even what kind of riding that is, is an expression of fashion.
:shock:
:roll:
:lol:
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by MadRhino » Aug 31 2018 3:45pm

DH bikes are best to build high power, not at all a must to build ebikes in general. Their stiff, strong frames with motorcycle geometry, their high end brake and suspension components, are making them suitable for high power and speed.

Making them longer, lower, with DM wide handlebar, is not fashion. That is how we are used to mod them. Manufacturers only include characteristics that are well known to work, and been aftermarket upgrades for a decade.

My bikes are built with DM mounts and angle set to a slacker steer angle, 790mm handlebars to enlarge the cockpit, stretched swingarm to stabilize the bike ar high speed... An we are many to do those mods. New bikes are coming closer to this geometry, because it is proven to be better to speed in mountain trails.

There is always some fashion, but the handling of a bike is not fashion. It is a goal, that most riders and manufacturers are trying to improve.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by kdog » Sep 01 2018 6:53am

So chalo, what kind of riding do you approve of? ....surely there's more to life than just road riding on steel frames and commuting :(

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by donn » Sep 01 2018 9:04am

kdog wrote:
Sep 01 2018 6:53am
So chalo, what kind of riding do you approve of? ....surely there's more to life than just road riding on steel frames and commuting :(
Don't feel bad, "fooling around" is indeed the higher purpose for which we do all that other stuff.

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by Chalo » Sep 01 2018 9:29am

kdog wrote:
Sep 01 2018 6:53am
So chalo, what kind of riding do you approve of? ....surely there's more to life than just road riding on steel frames and commuting :(
There's nothing wrong whatsoever with fooling around on a bike. Better a bike than, well, almost anything else. But unlike transportation riding, it is highly subject to changes in fashion.

For what it's worth, e-bikes are a fashion trend in transportation cycling, which could be reversed if the regulatory climate changes.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by markz » Sep 01 2018 12:26pm

e-Bikes and Fashion
Fashion perhaps, a "Fad" I dunno

It is necessary, its in fashion and wont go away because of "fashion" like bell bottoms, tab collars,

- More and more of peoples lease/finance rates balloon, insurance costs increase, repair bills, and fuel price are rising and they are fed up because maybe they are on a fixed income, but they need to get groceries or go somewhere. They need to get around.

- More and more people are getting older and older and some realize fitness is good in their lives so they buy ebikes for the assist.

- More and more condo's are being sold with only one parking space or non at all, so people buy an e-bike. I personally know of one person who is buying an ebike for this reason, buying from LBS because the couple only has one vehicle and one parking stall and they dont want to deal with street parking for one reason or another.

- More and more people are losing their drivers licenses due to criminality like DUI, DWI and with the legalization of weed, or medical reasons where their doctor, a cop/judge pulls their license from them. It will be more frequent so those people will turn to e-bikes.

- More and more people will have mobility issues and yet they do not require a mobility scooter.

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by donn » Sep 01 2018 4:41pm

Yeah, I had some very practical objectives, as I'm sure most do. But it's sure easier when the herd is into it. Well, maybe not the herd itself, but the advance guard, which is really what fashion is about. It could have gone other ways - the electric bicycle is for feeble people who can't manage on their own, for example - and practical objectives notwithstanding, it's a factor.

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by MadRhino » Sep 01 2018 4:59pm

markz wrote:
Sep 01 2018 12:26pm
e-Bikes and Fashion
...
More and more people are getting older and older
My experience is, all of them people had always got older and older everyday. :mrgreen:

Call it fashion, or call it evolution, every generation in sport is bound to beat the previous. Equipment does improve all the time. Sometimes the next improvement is coming so fast, that it is making the short lived previous looking like a momentary fashion.

Mtb racing went from 26’’ wheels to 27.5, and going to 29 before 27.5 really took off. Was 27.5 a fashion, or a short step of an evolution?
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by wturber » Sep 01 2018 7:44pm

MadRhino wrote:
Sep 01 2018 4:59pm

Mtb racing went from 26’’ wheels to 27.5, and going to 29 before 27.5 really took off. Was 27.5 a fashion, or a short step of an evolution?
Since I don't know MTB bike racing and whether or not 27.5" wheels provides a real racing advantage or not, (I admit I'm a little skeptical, but small benefits can make a big difference in highly competitive endeavors) I'm just going to assume for the moment that it does. The fashion/fad aspect comes in when all the non-racing bikes follow suit on the notion that what's good for the racer's is good for the average Jane and Joe - even if it has no practical benefit. Follow the leader ... even if the leader is doing something significantly different than the crowd. I see it over and over in many areas.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by Chalo » Sep 01 2018 8:34pm

MadRhino wrote:
Sep 01 2018 4:59pm
Mtb racing went from 26’’ wheels to 27.5, and going to 29 before 27.5 really took off. Was 27.5 a fashion, or a short step of an evolution?
26" is better at some things, 29" better at others. 27.5" isn't best at anything, and it was introduced specifically to make existing MTB owners buy a whole new bike in order to get it. Not coincidentally, rims and tires for 27.5" are more expensive than the same items in the other two sizes.

It's like a chump test for cyclists.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by MadRhino » Sep 01 2018 9:13pm

Well, frames could still be used with 27.5, and the teams that first had larger wheels made did good, soon followed by the other teams. Going to 29 was logic, but did require the bike manufacturers to re-design their frames and test them in racing conditions. So 27.5 had three years to be followed by the rims and tires manufacturers...

Now, we can see 27.5 falling in the cheap obsolete category, that every distributers will want to get rid of. They didn’t have time to pay for the manufacturing investments, a loss for most. 29 on the other side, will have a boost. More rims and tires already coming in that size that, even a decade old, had a pretty limited choice.

Of course, amateurs are following the racers. They want the same equipment, wear the same colours. That is fashion. Serious freeriders are always one or two generation behind the racers, but their mods are often ahead. They are not into fashion. They are after a better ride.
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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by markz » Sep 01 2018 10:11pm

Chalo wrote:
Sep 01 2018 8:34pm

Not coincidentally, rims and tires for 27.5" are more expensive than the same items in the other two sizes.
I never knew that.

It's like a chump test for cyclists.
LOL so true
LOL at chump test

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Re: Mountain bike frame geometry tending to get longer and lonnnger

Post by kdog » Sep 02 2018 7:12am

Yes I agree on that point. Mfs got to sell a whole lot more wheels to people who never knew they needed them! .... I'm short so I've stuck with 26" MTb on 29 for me was awful (on a borrowed bike), and I haven't bothered with 27.5. I'd like to ride one and try it on multiple occasions before I made any decisions ... But I'm not buying a new bike just for that.

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