Just a thesis, but:APL said:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/40026947.pdf
Appel Electric Cruiser
- Thread starter APL
- Start date
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/40026947.pdf
APL
100 kW
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amberwolf, I'd love to see the link,.. but I get a long PDF wait, and then a gray screen. Wait longer?
Can you grab a photo or two? I'll try again later, maybe it will go.
wutuber, Sounds right. We were taught slide basic. I didn't know it died in 1975, wish I could remember
how to use it! Books...I know, lots of books..
'Paper punch tape' thats funny!
My sister was in college at the time, and took me over to see the 'great' computer on campus. I was in awe.
Huge building, guys in lab coats running around. One of the lab guys came over and wanted me to ask it a question.
So I gave him the Kurt Vonegt question "why are we born, only to suffer and die?" He laughed and told me it had to
be a question that it already knew the answer to. That's when I first became disappointed in computers..
And I still can't download a PDF! Oh well, I like them again these days, because I got internet, and Google,
and Images. Not going for the smart phone though, I'm a holdout till the very end!
Those things remind me of a zombie movie! Is it just me? :|
Can you grab a photo or two? I'll try again later, maybe it will go.
wutuber, Sounds right. We were taught slide basic. I didn't know it died in 1975, wish I could remember
how to use it! Books...I know, lots of books..
'Paper punch tape' thats funny!
My sister was in college at the time, and took me over to see the 'great' computer on campus. I was in awe.
Huge building, guys in lab coats running around. One of the lab guys came over and wanted me to ask it a question.
So I gave him the Kurt Vonegt question "why are we born, only to suffer and die?" He laughed and told me it had to
be a question that it already knew the answer to. That's when I first became disappointed in computers..
And I still can't download a PDF! Oh well, I like them again these days, because I got internet, and Google,
and Images. Not going for the smart phone though, I'm a holdout till the very end!
Those things remind me of a zombie movie! Is it just me? :|
wturber
1 MW
APL said:
What was really funny was that a few years later I was typing up inventory lists that went out to cable yards for the phone company - on a Model 43 Teletype using a paper punch tape and a 300 baud modem. :^)
APL said:
For years I've considered the value-for-dollar benefit of my Swiss Army pocket knife to be perhaps the highest of anything I own. But today, I'd have to say my Moto G5 Plus trumps it.
If you don't use a smart phone for social media you'll find it can be a very handy multi-use tool for lots o' things. That said, few people really need one.
Even if the entire cell network was down indefinitely, my smart-phone is still very useful. Its a flat-format camera with a big screen that fits easily in my pocket. I also have a regular digital camera, but its the common brick proportions, though not large.
My phone has a notepad I can type memos on, a flashlight, and a lot of music storage, though I haven't used that yet. I have a solar panel that will fit through a door so it can be stored indoors at night (away from looters). I specifically got it to keep a 12V battery charged in an emergency, since I live in "tornado alley", to power my phone and laptop.
I use the alarm and the clock a lot (no longer carry a watch). Its' clock synch's with the grid when the grid is up, but then the clock runs accurately with no cell service. I use the calculator and the calendar.
When the grid is working and have cell service in range, I have grown to really like the google maps function. Its locates me on a map, and talks me through the turns to get to where I want to go. When the grid is working (99.9%) my smart-phone has transformed my waiting-in-line experience. I used to carry books in my car for the bank or DMV, etc. Now, waiting in line is an opportunity to check email and the forums.
My phone has a notepad I can type memos on, a flashlight, and a lot of music storage, though I haven't used that yet. I have a solar panel that will fit through a door so it can be stored indoors at night (away from looters). I specifically got it to keep a 12V battery charged in an emergency, since I live in "tornado alley", to power my phone and laptop.
I use the alarm and the clock a lot (no longer carry a watch). Its' clock synch's with the grid when the grid is up, but then the clock runs accurately with no cell service. I use the calculator and the calendar.
When the grid is working and have cell service in range, I have grown to really like the google maps function. Its locates me on a map, and talks me through the turns to get to where I want to go. When the grid is working (99.9%) my smart-phone has transformed my waiting-in-line experience. I used to carry books in my car for the bank or DMV, etc. Now, waiting in line is an opportunity to check email and the forums.
wturber
1 MW
Other uses are: a level, inclinometer (for sharpening knives), compass, audio recorder (meetings), weather reports, heart rate monitor, stress checker (might be toy, might be legit, not sure), mirror, magnifying glass, video recorder, ride tracker, speed and red light warning system (when driving), time tracking/logging(work), Netflix, light meter, engine OBD monitor (car), and probably some others I can't think of right now.
Yes! You reminded me that...if you have to read some extra-fine print, take a picture and then expand the pic to make the text larger.
APL
100 kW
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I see the dark side is strong in these two. Enticed by the sweet call of the sirens on yonder cliff.
I do recognize all the awesome benefits. Why do I cover my ears and resist? Perhaps it's because I see people
buried in these things everywhere I go, like a scene from 'the body snatchers' I expect them to all start pointing
at me and screech, "He's got a flip phone!"
A phone should be a phone.
But I have to come clean, I do own one.
Not activated though. I'm trying to use it for a WiFi rear view mirror.
Currently have a drone camera under the rear seat. Unfortunately the camera has a 2 second delay, so I need to upgrade.
Can't find the phone
But this is the mount/clip.
Dang! I forgot about that.. resistance is futile. :?
I do recognize all the awesome benefits. Why do I cover my ears and resist? Perhaps it's because I see people
buried in these things everywhere I go, like a scene from 'the body snatchers' I expect them to all start pointing
at me and screech, "He's got a flip phone!"
A phone should be a phone.
But I have to come clean, I do own one.
Not activated though. I'm trying to use it for a WiFi rear view mirror. Currently have a drone camera under the rear seat. Unfortunately the camera has a 2 second delay, so I need to upgrade.
Can't find the phone
But this is the mount/clip.Dang! I forgot about that.. resistance is futile. :?
wturber
1 MW
APL said:
So I guess my Swiss Army knife shouldn't have a can opener, bottle opener, three screw drivers, awl, toothpick or tweezers? A knife should be a knife? (Yeah - I understand you were being somewhat tongue in cheek. But I'm guessing only somewhat.)
I don't bury my nose in my phone. I keep the alarms and audio off and have a Pebble smart watch that notifies me about calls, texts etc. I glance at my watch to see if I care to deal with it now, later, or not at all. The phone spends a lot of time in my pocket or face down on my desk.
They may call it a phone, but I use it as a pocket computer and data terminal. I seldom actually talk on it.
wturber said:
Sorry for the OT, but just for a moment, I was reminded of this:
Code:
“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the
unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the
Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting
this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles
is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet
whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly
primitive that they still think digital watches are
a pretty neat idea.”:lol:
FWIW, I find the multipurpose pocket computer aspect of "modern" celphones interesting and useful, though I happen to dislike the "social media" aspect of how many people bury themselves into them. I don't have a "real" smartphone, at least not one with service, but I imagine if I did I'd end up using it's connectivity functions a fair bit.
wturber
1 MW
A smart watch like the Pebble is more a peripheral for the pocket computer/cell phone than it is a "digital watch." Extra sensors, compact remote display ... and it can show the time. :^)
APL
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Tung and cheek for sure, I don't get too upset about anything, unless somebody throws their door into the side
of my car,.. then you'll see a man get mean!
A knife should be a knife. Yes, a big one. Although it depends of course,(always does), what the situation is.
A big knife in the woods is a good thing, and a Swiss army knife won't get you very far. But a big knife in town,
will get you in jail, and a swiss army knife is more useful for city stuff, gadgets, locks, equipment, etc.
I have found that things that do multi-purpose functions, don't do any of them very well. A scissors for cutting
your mustache, a file for doing your nails, a screwdriver that won't fit where you want it to, etc.
Still, they have their moments, for sure, and are defiantly useful. I have one.
But, I will concede, a smart phone does have an amazing aurae of useful functions. The apps are endless,..to
be able to look through the earth, and see a constellation on the other side is a miracle! And maps of course.
plus all the others you mentioned,..and more.
So, I guess it's just a matter of time, (lots, and lots of time), I will be assimilated, or left standing at the bus stop.
I guess it does bothers me a bit that we are leaning more heavily on the internet, and these devices. In the case of a
solar flair, or some similar disruption, things could be rougher than they might have been.
And I for sure don't liked being tracked, or watched. But since I use a PC, I'm being watched anyway. Whats the
difference?
Progress moves on, with you or without you. It is what it is.
In about 50 years things will change completely anyway, when 3D printing is capable of printing with all of the elements,
or most anyway, ( molecular printer ), and you can get most anything you want on your home, or industrial printer.
All for the cost of a program, and materials.
The finest meal ever created?..$6.00 Cloths, a motorcycle, a robot? just stick your card in there..
Yea,I know,..I'm nut's. When I was a kid, a smart phone would have been just as nuts.:|
of my car,.. then you'll see a man get mean!
A knife should be a knife. Yes, a big one. Although it depends of course,(always does), what the situation is.
A big knife in the woods is a good thing, and a Swiss army knife won't get you very far. But a big knife in town,
will get you in jail, and a swiss army knife is more useful for city stuff, gadgets, locks, equipment, etc.
I have found that things that do multi-purpose functions, don't do any of them very well. A scissors for cutting
your mustache, a file for doing your nails, a screwdriver that won't fit where you want it to, etc.
Still, they have their moments, for sure, and are defiantly useful. I have one.
But, I will concede, a smart phone does have an amazing aurae of useful functions. The apps are endless,..to
be able to look through the earth, and see a constellation on the other side is a miracle! And maps of course.
plus all the others you mentioned,..and more.
So, I guess it's just a matter of time, (lots, and lots of time), I will be assimilated, or left standing at the bus stop.
I guess it does bothers me a bit that we are leaning more heavily on the internet, and these devices. In the case of a
solar flair, or some similar disruption, things could be rougher than they might have been.
And I for sure don't liked being tracked, or watched. But since I use a PC, I'm being watched anyway. Whats the
difference?
Progress moves on, with you or without you. It is what it is.
In about 50 years things will change completely anyway, when 3D printing is capable of printing with all of the elements,
or most anyway, ( molecular printer ), and you can get most anything you want on your home, or industrial printer.
All for the cost of a program, and materials.
The finest meal ever created?..$6.00 Cloths, a motorcycle, a robot? just stick your card in there..
Yea,I know,..I'm nut's. When I was a kid, a smart phone would have been just as nuts.:|
wturber
1 MW
I guess I've helped drag this far afield, so I'll end that for me with this post.
My Swiss Army Knife does nothing well other than being handy. All of its tools are mediocre. But having a mediocre tool at hand is often a lot better than having no tool and I can (and do) carry my SAK with me almost all the time.
GPS can be turned off. So can the entire "phone" when not needed. In fact, you can have a bunch of the functionality by simply not ordering phone service. Run it only off of WiFi. Cheaper too.
I try to buy stuff that I can actually use. Then it is up to me to use it wisely. Sometimes I goof. And when I do, I can always change or revert. I'm currently sorta wondering if having a car is one such goof. :^)
My Swiss Army Knife does nothing well other than being handy. All of its tools are mediocre. But having a mediocre tool at hand is often a lot better than having no tool and I can (and do) carry my SAK with me almost all the time.
GPS can be turned off. So can the entire "phone" when not needed. In fact, you can have a bunch of the functionality by simply not ordering phone service. Run it only off of WiFi. Cheaper too.
I try to buy stuff that I can actually use. Then it is up to me to use it wisely. Sometimes I goof. And when I do, I can always change or revert. I'm currently sorta wondering if having a car is one such goof. :^)
APL
100 kW
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I don't mind burning a page to talk about whatever, but it should get back to relevant at some point.
I have been meaning to start a conversation about mid drive motors, specifically 'axial' motors. probably
should drag it over to the 'mid drive media group' but what the hell,.. see if I got any takers here.
Big hub motors aren't the best thing for mid drives, as they're unnecessarily heavy because they need to
have a strong outer ring to combat spoke tension. Usually, the bigger the motor, the more likely it is that
it will use steel for this. Bionx being one exception, but too big, and low power.
Unless you know something better? Lighter, 1000 - 3000 watts. Specifically, in a mid drive bike like I have.
300+ rpm.
Anyway, it seems to me, that an axial motor, with no outer ring,..just spacers, would fit the bill better.
Easy to take apart, and even change inner windings, or magnets easily, for different torques and speeds.
Plus, the axle can be a 1" aluminum shaft with large flats, since it won't have to fit in a vertical dropout.
But I looked it up, and didn't see anything made for bikes specifically. Lots of generic axial's.
Anybody got info. / ideas?
I know that hub motors get their power / torque form having the magnets in a large radius, however, axial's
are able to use both sides of the magnetic poles, brining them back to equal, or posibly even more power.
I have been considering making one for a next project. Doesn't seem like it would be all 'that' hard.
A matching controller would probably be the hardest part.
Heres an Image link to Axial's.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dc+axial+motor&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CRTdaT-U3o2rIjhBQySNFyRKPWeOJMHg-ojFIcdtaXnlcuGd3RPs1QKk_1mt7_1gKG8d3YNAvR4RFIwYGl36KlRA4O4yoSCUFDJI0XJEo9EWsHZ1BARE4YKhIJZ44kweD6iMURW8jUhiQl_1ZoqEgkhx21peeVy4RHePCgMaDJOEioSCZ3dE-zVAqT-ETLTpv6VUPHKKhIJa3v-Aobx3dgR_10A60-PbJpwqEgk0C9HhEUjBgREh3QluUzNHdyoSCaXfoqVEDg7jETL89WvBLrop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYhLW_0YTdAhUn0YMKHVvDBhMQ9C96BAgBEBs&biw=1680&bih=989&dpr=1#imgrc=_
I have been meaning to start a conversation about mid drive motors, specifically 'axial' motors. probably
should drag it over to the 'mid drive media group' but what the hell,.. see if I got any takers here.
Big hub motors aren't the best thing for mid drives, as they're unnecessarily heavy because they need to
have a strong outer ring to combat spoke tension. Usually, the bigger the motor, the more likely it is that
it will use steel for this. Bionx being one exception, but too big, and low power.
Unless you know something better? Lighter, 1000 - 3000 watts. Specifically, in a mid drive bike like I have.
300+ rpm.
Anyway, it seems to me, that an axial motor, with no outer ring,..just spacers, would fit the bill better.
Easy to take apart, and even change inner windings, or magnets easily, for different torques and speeds.
Plus, the axle can be a 1" aluminum shaft with large flats, since it won't have to fit in a vertical dropout.
But I looked it up, and didn't see anything made for bikes specifically. Lots of generic axial's.
Anybody got info. / ideas?
I know that hub motors get their power / torque form having the magnets in a large radius, however, axial's
are able to use both sides of the magnetic poles, brining them back to equal, or posibly even more power.
I have been considering making one for a next project. Doesn't seem like it would be all 'that' hard.
A matching controller would probably be the hardest part.
Heres an Image link to Axial's.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dc+axial+motor&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CRTdaT-U3o2rIjhBQySNFyRKPWeOJMHg-ojFIcdtaXnlcuGd3RPs1QKk_1mt7_1gKG8d3YNAvR4RFIwYGl36KlRA4O4yoSCUFDJI0XJEo9EWsHZ1BARE4YKhIJZ44kweD6iMURW8jUhiQl_1ZoqEgkhx21peeVy4RHePCgMaDJOEioSCZ3dE-zVAqT-ETLTpv6VUPHKKhIJa3v-Aobx3dgR_10A60-PbJpwqEgk0C9HhEUjBgREh3QluUzNHdyoSCaXfoqVEDg7jETL89WvBLrop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYhLW_0YTdAhUn0YMKHVvDBhMQ9C96BAgBEBs&biw=1680&bih=989&dpr=1#imgrc=_
If you cooled it well enough, there's a bunch of radiator fan motors that are axial pancake types. I used a pair for a friction drive on DayGlo Avenger, as my first really successful ebike. Eventually broke the thin shaft at a circlip groove because I had the rollers directly mounted on the shafts, and I doubt it was perfectly mounted round, and the constant small flexing eventually broke it. Probably wouldn't've happened if I'd used a collar on teh shaft to extend it to a pillow block, so it wasn't supported only at one end. Could also machine a bigger shaft, etc.
There's also motors like the Etek / Mars series, but they are big and heavy because they are meant for much higher power, continuously.
Lebowski built his own axial flux motor for his bike; you can look it up in his early threads about his controller design too. (the controller has evolved and is even available as DIY kits from some members)
I can't remember for sure, but I think at least one of the Heinzmann motors is/was axial flux.
There's also motors like the Etek / Mars series, but they are big and heavy because they are meant for much higher power, continuously.
Lebowski built his own axial flux motor for his bike; you can look it up in his early threads about his controller design too. (the controller has evolved and is even available as DIY kits from some members)
I can't remember for sure, but I think at least one of the Heinzmann motors is/was axial flux.
"Building a DIY triple stator axial flux motor" (Lebowski, 8 pages)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=46476
"Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic and setup manual" (Lebowski, 48 pages)
[plus index in first post, to all Lebowski threads]
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=36602
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=46476
"Lebowski's motor controller IC, schematic and setup manual" (Lebowski, 48 pages)
[plus index in first post, to all Lebowski threads]
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=36602
LockH
1 PW
"they need to have a strong outer ring to combat spoke tension."
In a stop-and-go urban world, perhaps the "name of the game" is torque... aka acceleration? Where a larger outer diameter electric motor wins?
In a stop-and-go urban world, perhaps the "name of the game" is torque... aka acceleration?
Where a larger outer diameter electric motor wins?
APL
100 kW
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- 1,113
Thanks amberwolf, and thanks spinningmagnets. It's like Thanksgiving, I have a feast! 48 pages? I'll have to
pack a lunch,..could take a while. I may be in over my head on this, but theres nothing new about that.
I would think so LockH, as long as theres room, and the rpm's are right. I like the pure simplicity of it.
Although I'm sure others would argue. Compact gearing and high rpm work well too.
Which system can be made lighter?
The compact internal mid drives that have taken over the market today might be an example of this.
Wonderful bikes that they are,..and I do like them, it seems to me to be another example of companies taking
the machine, out of the hands of the individual, Tech wise, and into the hands of the repair shop,
with all the trappings of planed obsolescence. Where will this bike be in 5 years? Will the repair parts be there?
The designer frame-fit batteries? Before you get angry, I admit, they fit the off road scene perfectly.
One of the things I really like about normal pedal bikes is, I can take a turn of the century bike, put new parts on it
and still have a useable machine. Now I sound like an old guy again.
Anyway, one of the things I strive for, on this bike, is home repair, simple tools, and common parts.
An axial motor is optional. I'm just trying to lighten it up, make it user repairable, and upgradeable.
I imagine a market of fancy anodized motor side plates, a multitude of internal parts, and upgrades,
just like everything else we have, and a person can have a ball creating his own motor, without fear of it
burning out, because that would just be an excuse to buy even better fancier parts!
Ah, but I am a dreamer...
pack a lunch,..could take a while. I may be in over my head on this, but theres nothing new about that.
I would think so LockH, as long as theres room, and the rpm's are right. I like the pure simplicity of it.
Although I'm sure others would argue. Compact gearing and high rpm work well too.
Which system can be made lighter?
The compact internal mid drives that have taken over the market today might be an example of this.
Wonderful bikes that they are,..and I do like them, it seems to me to be another example of companies taking
the machine, out of the hands of the individual, Tech wise, and into the hands of the repair shop,
with all the trappings of planed obsolescence. Where will this bike be in 5 years? Will the repair parts be there?
The designer frame-fit batteries? Before you get angry, I admit, they fit the off road scene perfectly.
One of the things I really like about normal pedal bikes is, I can take a turn of the century bike, put new parts on it
and still have a useable machine. Now I sound like an old guy again.
Anyway, one of the things I strive for, on this bike, is home repair, simple tools, and common parts.
An axial motor is optional. I'm just trying to lighten it up, make it user repairable, and upgradeable.
I imagine a market of fancy anodized motor side plates, a multitude of internal parts, and upgrades,
just like everything else we have, and a person can have a ball creating his own motor, without fear of it
burning out, because that would just be an excuse to buy even better fancier parts!
Ah, but I am a dreamer...
APL
100 kW
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2018
- Messages
- 1,113
Back form my first day at the "Endless Sphere College'. This is going to take a while.. threads leading to threads,
and more threads! Those boys sure know how to make your head hurt. But God bless them, they've built a fine road
for others to follow! And thats what it's all about here!
Getting handle on it though. Mama didn't born no fool boy! I'm no stranger to wires and magnets. My father taught
electronics in the service, and some of it actually rubbed off on me. Thats..'some'.
Anyway, They seem intent on reinventing the wheel, or, in this case the motor. Which is fine. But I was hoping to
bypass a lot of that, and reverse engineer the Crystalyte motor I have. That way I have a lot of values, sizes, and
voltages already figured out, and I can transpose them into another shape/form. Somewhat.
A lot of hope, I know..
I know how big the magnets need to be, how much wire and size to use. By using the same number of magnet units
I'm hoping that I can use the same controller I have as well. This would make it much more interesting to viewers
who are willing to make a motor, but not a controller. And at any rate, that half of the equation is already done.
And in the end, if I get that far, it will be an interesting comparison test, between the two motors.
Back to school, this punk ass Freshman shouldn't talk too loud.. :?
and more threads!
Those boys sure know how to make your head hurt. But God bless them, they've built a fine road for others to follow! And thats what it's all about here!
Getting handle on it though. Mama didn't born no fool boy! I'm no stranger to wires and magnets. My father taught
electronics in the service, and some of it actually rubbed off on me. Thats..'some'.
Anyway, They seem intent on reinventing the wheel, or, in this case the motor. Which is fine. But I was hoping to
bypass a lot of that, and reverse engineer the Crystalyte motor I have. That way I have a lot of values, sizes, and
voltages already figured out, and I can transpose them into another shape/form. Somewhat.
A lot of hope, I know..
I know how big the magnets need to be, how much wire and size to use. By using the same number of magnet units
I'm hoping that I can use the same controller I have as well. This would make it much more interesting to viewers
who are willing to make a motor, but not a controller. And at any rate, that half of the equation is already done.
And in the end, if I get that far, it will be an interesting comparison test, between the two motors.
Back to school, this punk ass Freshman shouldn't talk too loud.. :?
APL
100 kW
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2018
- Messages
- 1,113
After reading through hundreds and hundreds of pages of motor and controller theory and construction,
I realize that I'm never going to get all of this.
So I'm going to have to lean on all of the good folks here on the ES, to help me out.
In the mean time, I was able to make a drawing of all the ideas that have been going through my head, for
a simple DIY mid drive specific AF motor, that can be experimented with, and improved on.
View attachment 1
Here are a few of the features.
Simple, changeable cores, with easy windings, for various core materials, and wire sizes.
Complete disassembly with small tools.
Replaceable aluminum axle, make whatever size you want.
Self cooling.
Large axle flats and bolts.
Large bearings for long service.
Low RPM, for less eddy heat.
300-600rpm, 40-60v. 1kw ? More? whatever you want!!
The core length can be changed with the axle center section machining.
The back iron / magnet rings can be changed out in a few minutes for different weights and sizes,
and the air gap can be fine adjusted with some shim stock.
Just a drawing to get started, I'm sure lots of things will change, I need your help to point out all my F. up's.
Keep in mind, this is DIY and low buck fun.
I'm trying to find a simple platform for general experimentation, feel free to make any suggestions.
I'm already thinking that the back iron / magnets should go on the inside of the stator disc, so all
of the slot machining would be deleted.
You can't build a motor without machining, so there will have to be some of that. Hopefully I can find
enough ways to keep it to a minimum.
With a few design changes, it could be converted to a hub motor. (possibly?)
What do you think?
I realize that I'm never going to get all of this.
So I'm going to have to lean on all of the good folks here on the ES, to help me out.
In the mean time, I was able to make a drawing of all the ideas that have been going through my head, for
a simple DIY mid drive specific AF motor, that can be experimented with, and improved on.
View attachment 1
Here are a few of the features.
Simple, changeable cores, with easy windings, for various core materials, and wire sizes.
Complete disassembly with small tools.
Replaceable aluminum axle, make whatever size you want.
Self cooling.
Large axle flats and bolts.
Large bearings for long service.
Low RPM, for less eddy heat.
300-600rpm, 40-60v. 1kw ? More? whatever you want!!
The core length can be changed with the axle center section machining.
The back iron / magnet rings can be changed out in a few minutes for different weights and sizes,
and the air gap can be fine adjusted with some shim stock.
Just a drawing to get started, I'm sure lots of things will change, I need your help to point out all my F. up's.
Keep in mind, this is DIY and low buck fun.
I'm trying to find a simple platform for general experimentation, feel free to make any suggestions.
I'm already thinking that the back iron / magnets should go on the inside of the stator disc, so all
of the slot machining would be deleted.
You can't build a motor without machining, so there will have to be some of that. Hopefully I can find
enough ways to keep it to a minimum.
With a few design changes, it could be converted to a hub motor. (possibly?)
What do you think?
Just based on personal experiences with flatted-axle failures, I highly recommend a completely different axle design.
Axle flats are a terrible way to transfer torque, and are mainly used because someone once did it because it was easy and quick and "cheap", and everyone else copied that. It does work most of the time...but when it fails it can be spectacular. :/
Also, holes drilled thru the axle for wires to pass thru weaken it further, and can endanger the wires in case of spinout of the axle. It's not as much of a problem when the motor isn't in the wheel, but it can still happen.
Instead, I recommend an axle with a large diameter and a splined surface out to where the threads begin. If possible, use the same diameter out to the end of the axle, including the threaded area (needs a bigger nut, though). You can then use a thick splined-ID torque arm that snaps over the splined axle surface, made of as tough a metal as is needed. Basically like a freehub body and cassette--the splines on that aren't even very deep and over the width of cassette and body it spreads that load pretty well. Deeper splines would transfer more torque with less worry. Simillar designs are used for connections between motors and transmissions on cars and such, which can be very high torque.
Then use a spacer ring around the axle between it and the ID of the bearings, with holes in it for the wires. You can also use larger gauge phase wires that way, too, if you need them.
Axle flats are a terrible way to transfer torque, and are mainly used because someone once did it because it was easy and quick and "cheap", and everyone else copied that. It does work most of the time...but when it fails it can be spectacular. :/
Also, holes drilled thru the axle for wires to pass thru weaken it further, and can endanger the wires in case of spinout of the axle. It's not as much of a problem when the motor isn't in the wheel, but it can still happen.
Instead, I recommend an axle with a large diameter and a splined surface out to where the threads begin. If possible, use the same diameter out to the end of the axle, including the threaded area (needs a bigger nut, though). You can then use a thick splined-ID torque arm that snaps over the splined axle surface, made of as tough a metal as is needed. Basically like a freehub body and cassette--the splines on that aren't even very deep and over the width of cassette and body it spreads that load pretty well. Deeper splines would transfer more torque with less worry. Simillar designs are used for connections between motors and transmissions on cars and such, which can be very high torque.
Then use a spacer ring around the axle between it and the ID of the bearings, with holes in it for the wires. You can also use larger gauge phase wires that way, too, if you need them.
APL
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Luckily the axel can be easily machined any way you want. I admit the ends need help on this drawing.
Just a starting place.
I bumped them up to 13mm,and could go to 15mm.
There still needs to be a slotted frame mount for them to go in, for chain tension. I would think.
I really don't like the flats either, but I thought for a thousand watts of power they might do. And I don't have any better,
simpler ideas at the moment.
Theres an inch of surface area on each flat, quite a bit more than a hub axel. Although, it is aluminum..
Keep in mind that they don't have to take the load of the bike and rider.
Axels can only be as large as the bearing ID diameter. In fact the right drive side has to be less than the drive cog system,
that slides over it, around 28mm.
But the left side could be larger, provided you won't use it fore a drive, or a brake.
A splined torque arm system would work on the left side nicely, but there isn't always room on the right side for anything
substantial. Perhaps one side would be enough?
The problem I have with splines is that they aren't so easy to machine. This adds a lot of complexity to a build.
However if someone felt like doing it, they most certainly could. Axel and torque arms. Would have to go on 30mm
on one side and 28mm on the other. Unless you used a larger bearing on the non drive side.
Splines that go on aluminum have to be much thicker than splines that go on steel,..1/4" to 1/2" wide.
Can you think of any simpler ways to do it, easier to machine? How about a big square? Or multiple pins on the
end of the axel? How about two bolts per side, instead of one?
I think it would be possible to run a chromo thru-bolt through it also, 10-12mm, providing the wires were moved.
The wires have to go through the axle one way or another,..through the middle of the left bearing somewhere.
A person could drill three smaller ones, but I'm not sure you would gain anything.
I guess I didn't really understand your description of phase wire routing, can you elaborate?
It would be nice to find a better way to run the wires out.
I'll post a bigger picture of the axel to work with.
Just a starting place.
I bumped them up to 13mm,and could go to 15mm.
There still needs to be a slotted frame mount for them to go in, for chain tension. I would think.
I really don't like the flats either, but I thought for a thousand watts of power they might do. And I don't have any better,
simpler ideas at the moment.
Theres an inch of surface area on each flat, quite a bit more than a hub axel. Although, it is aluminum..
Keep in mind that they don't have to take the load of the bike and rider.
Axels can only be as large as the bearing ID diameter. In fact the right drive side has to be less than the drive cog system,
that slides over it, around 28mm.
But the left side could be larger, provided you won't use it fore a drive, or a brake.
A splined torque arm system would work on the left side nicely, but there isn't always room on the right side for anything
substantial. Perhaps one side would be enough?
The problem I have with splines is that they aren't so easy to machine. This adds a lot of complexity to a build.
However if someone felt like doing it, they most certainly could. Axel and torque arms. Would have to go on 30mm
on one side and 28mm on the other. Unless you used a larger bearing on the non drive side.
Splines that go on aluminum have to be much thicker than splines that go on steel,..1/4" to 1/2" wide.
Can you think of any simpler ways to do it, easier to machine? How about a big square? Or multiple pins on the
end of the axel? How about two bolts per side, instead of one?
I think it would be possible to run a chromo thru-bolt through it also, 10-12mm, providing the wires were moved.
The wires have to go through the axle one way or another,..through the middle of the left bearing somewhere.
A person could drill three smaller ones, but I'm not sure you would gain anything.
I guess I didn't really understand your description of phase wire routing, can you elaborate?
It would be nice to find a better way to run the wires out.
I'll post a bigger picture of the axel to work with.
APL
100 kW
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More on axel end designs.
Some spline types, a square, double bolt, and a 'pin' design borrowed from a VW crankshaft.
Wires could be fed through the bearing at the surface at 60 degree spacings, but machining may be difficult.
A split axel design might make it more possible, one half could even be steel.
Stator bolts would hold it together.
Some spline types, a square, double bolt, and a 'pin' design borrowed from a VW crankshaft.
Wires could be fed through the bearing at the surface at 60 degree spacings, but machining may be difficult.
A split axel design might make it more possible, one half could even be steel.
Stator bolts would hold it together.
Sure, you can still ahve a slotted frame mount, but just like a bike axle / dropout it doesn't have to resist torque.APL said:There still needs to be a slotted frame mount for them to go in, for chain tension. I would think.
Simpler...no...and depending on thicknesses and material strengths and precision of fit, axle flats can support quite a lot of torque. It's not so much the watts as the Nm.
You can have several kW and very little torque, if the RPM is high. Torque conversion can happen farther downstream (a number of middrives do this with RC motors). As you note, it's actually not the bearing ID that limits the axle size--it's the other components that have to go over the axle. The bearing ID can be MUCH larger, with a spacer ring between the bearing and the axle.
How substantial is a freehub body and cassette splines? Not very, but it can take a fair bit of torque.
True that this is partly because of the width of the body and cassette, and you wouldn't have that much width to work with most likely. But a bit deeper splines would make up for that in surface area.On the right side it depends on what you're doing for a drive system, whether it's single speed output or multispeed, etc. Remember also that you are desiging the motor from scratch, so no reason you have to stick with bicycle specific parts for the output stage either.
You could even machine the rotor so it has sprocket teeth on the outside ring, where it would normally have a spoke flange. Wouldn't have a freewheel there, but if there is already one on the wheel, it would only matter for pedalling without the motor (which I'd guess isn't a big expectation here). Perhaps, but then the axle could experience twisting forces along it's lenght, which is what broke at least one of the axles on my trike (where the flats on one side didnt' fit as precisely, so that end of the axle all the way to the start of the flats of the other end was able to twist, while the flats that were precisely clamped couldn't, and eventually that broke the axle at that point.).
Keep in mind I'm playing devil's advocate / murphy's proxy, just pointing out potential problems.
Doesn't mean you have to consider any of these in your designs...it's just what I would try if I had the means and time for it. No, they don't have to go *through* the axle.
They can easily go alongside the axle, parallel to it, as long as you use a bearing with a larger ID than the axle. Then whatever space the wires don't take up is filled with a ring that has holes for the wires to go thru. Once past the bearing, they can then route along interior motor supports to the phase windings, sensors, etc.
Imagine the axle, solid, no trench or hole thru it at all. Let's say it's 28mm OD.
Imagine the bearing with a 35mm ID.
Imagine a ring with 35mm OD and 28mm ID. 7mm is probably plenty of space, but you could use whatever space you need, as long as you get a bearing with a big enough ID. Drill holes in that ring from outboard flat side to inboard flat side, large enough for whatever wiring has to go thru it.
Insert the ring onto the axle. Run phase, hall, etc wires thru the small holes in the ring to wherever they need to go.
Insert the bearing onto the ring. Insert the motor side cover onto the bearing. Bolt it all together. Install motor on bike.
APL
100 kW
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Devils advocate? Bring it! Thats what moves things forward. I enjoy your input. This motors
moving right along because of it.
Thats what this motor project is all about,..I need peoples input!
I like your chainring stator idea! Brilliant! It made me think, that a person could drill and tap all the
chainring patterns into the stator plates. Then you could use all the inner and outer ATB and road
rings on it, ..with some spacers. Rather high gears mostly, but I think the ATB five bolt stuff goes
down to 24T?
The drive gear set up on the drive side on my bike is pretty wide. So I was selfishly thinking of that.
But if it was just a single cog, then there would be plenty of room for a spline torque arm system, on
both sides. You are right.
I had the idea of using 'sockets' on the torque arms to increase area. and it might even slide under
some drive parts. But splined sockets are not so easy to machine. Maybe theres some pre-splined
tubing? I'll have to look.
In the meantime.
What do you think of the double bolt idea? Grade 8 bolts would go down into the axel a ways,
for a good anchor, and the torque would work against shear strength, which is extremely high.
9mm or 10mm bolt shafts would fit a dropout.
Perhaps the dual bolts could go through a torque arm strap on the outside face of the dropout?
Hmm..just an idea
Back to the wires,.. I see what you mean now, with the spacer ring. I would just turn the ring as part
of the axel.
Yes, a bigger ID bearing. I was hesitant on starting out with a bigger ID bearing on the left because
the bearings it has now are pretty dang big. This thing is like a boat motor,.. it will chug along for ever.
But I looked up some bearings and found a SKF 6008 that looks like it will fit the bill. It's 40mm ID.
68mm OD. and 15mm thick. Should roll forever as well. And that size fits in with everything.
That gives 5mm,..or more (if you machine the axel some). Space the wires 60 degrees, or all together.
Heres a quick revised drawing. Everything works out, except the left side is not as easy to put a standard
six hole cog on, because the bearing cap is larger to accommodate the new bearing, and wires.
Can't have it all. You can still mount things with bigger ID's though.
moving right along because of it.
Thats what this motor project is all about,..I need peoples input!
I like your chainring stator idea! Brilliant!
It made me think, that a person could drill and tap all thechainring patterns into the stator plates. Then you could use all the inner and outer ATB and road
rings on it, ..with some spacers. Rather high gears mostly, but I think the ATB five bolt stuff goes
down to 24T?
The drive gear set up on the drive side on my bike is pretty wide. So I was selfishly thinking of that.
But if it was just a single cog, then there would be plenty of room for a spline torque arm system, on
both sides. You are right.
I had the idea of using 'sockets' on the torque arms to increase area. and it might even slide under
some drive parts. But splined sockets are not so easy to machine. Maybe theres some pre-splined
tubing? I'll have to look.
In the meantime.
What do you think of the double bolt idea? Grade 8 bolts would go down into the axel a ways,
for a good anchor, and the torque would work against shear strength, which is extremely high.
9mm or 10mm bolt shafts would fit a dropout.
Perhaps the dual bolts could go through a torque arm strap on the outside face of the dropout?
Hmm..just an idea
Back to the wires,.. I see what you mean now, with the spacer ring. I would just turn the ring as part
of the axel.
Yes, a bigger ID bearing. I was hesitant on starting out with a bigger ID bearing on the left because
the bearings it has now are pretty dang big. This thing is like a boat motor,.. it will chug along for ever.
But I looked up some bearings and found a SKF 6008 that looks like it will fit the bill. It's 40mm ID.
68mm OD. and 15mm thick. Should roll forever as well. And that size fits in with everything.
That gives 5mm,..or more (if you machine the axel some). Space the wires 60 degrees, or all together.
Heres a quick revised drawing. Everything works out, except the left side is not as easy to put a standard
six hole cog on, because the bearing cap is larger to accommodate the new bearing, and wires.
Can't have it all. You can still mount things with bigger ID's though.
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