Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike
- Thread starter Allex
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ryan1685 said:
I'm trying to get it worked out to find a reputable source for shipping bikes directly from china. With Luna cycles raising their prices, it only makes sense to have it shipped directly by freight from china.
The issue is that there are fees or fixed costs (Like a document fee that is about $400 no matter if you ship 1 bike or 100) so smaller group buys are better, like 3-5 bikes probably makes sense so it will cost about $200-300 to ship the bike instead of $700 for a single bike.
The other issue is the new tariffs and how that will affect the prices.
Before with the regular version and nothing was known about the X-version, it made sense to just buy it from Luna Cycles. Now with the new X-version, and with Luna raising the price by a whopping $500 it may make more sense to ship directly from china.
The best would be to be able to buy a large quantity at a cheaper price in china, this way you pay only say $2000 for the bike from Sur-Ron china then their current price of $2800. This way it even adds to the savings.
Offroader said:
I live in Canada, so I am not as worried about Trump's big dick swing contest with China. However the barriers of entry will still be high for me. As the rest of Summer fades away- it has been snowing for the last week … fml, I guess I will have to stick with my new fat bike build, which is a 2018 Kona wozo and a 1000 watt bbshd and a 1500wh frame mounted battery. It costs me about $6000 all in, but at half the weight and almost the same battery capacity, it should get me through the winter. I just got tired of spending 50 plus hours trying to buy the Sur ron, Id like to try it out, but it almost seems like the company is really attached to Luna Cycle or they are flat out racist.
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Luna is the exclusive dealer for surron north america (they have an employee / rep in Canada).. Luna was the first to pony up (in usa) with surron and early bird gets the worm (exclusivity)..
don't forget to include the pedal kit if shipping light bee to Canada ..
(this makes light bee an ebike for less legal hassle than moped or motorcycle and
the restrictor wire may also need to be cut beforehand to limit the power level) ..
reference : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&p=1405256&hilit=pedal+kit#p1405256
don't forget to include the pedal kit if shipping light bee to Canada ..
(this makes light bee an ebike for less legal hassle than moped or motorcycle and
the restrictor wire may also need to be cut beforehand to limit the power level) ..
reference : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&p=1405256&hilit=pedal+kit#p1405256
macribs
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ryan1685 said:
If your math is correct a group by will make sense for many people. Even if that mean they will not have easy access to support and will need to deal with the chinglish and extra shipping cost if somethings goes wrong and they need to ship parts back and forth to China on their own dime.
One of the reasons shipping agents avoid the pain of dangerous goods is because they know dangerous goods most of the time[strike]/often[/strike] will delay their container on the ports, sometimes adding many weeks to the sipping process. However, their is a solution to this. Only place order if to taoboa or similar china mall websites if you are sure you enough committed buyers to fill a container. If you can fill a container the shipping agents could care less about shipping time, delays etc because as long as they have filled the correct paper work in advance they are in the clear and get paid no matter if the dangerous goods part gets container delayed on both ports.
The golden ticket is also that it is so much easier for shipping agents to deal with filled up containers, less work for them to ship a full container rather then to collect enough goods to fill a container before shipping. So their labor to pay ratio is higher for full containers.
For yo that would mean if you get enough people to commit to a group buy you could have different countries for shipping addresses as long as you make sure you can fill up each container so that there will go at least one complete filled up container to each port. Then the shipping agents will happily ship your goods to several countries.
Don't know if you can get that low price if you deal with China mall websites like taobao or if you will need to deal with Sur Ron direct for that price. If the dealings with Sur Ron is required Sur Ron might force some rules on you, ie that will not ship to countries where they already have deals with importers. Maybe you can bypass that buy submitting a local Chinese shipping address you get from your shipping agent. Chinese resellers on taobao and similar sites will not care about Sur Ron's deals regarding importers. As long as you provide a forwarding address to a Chinese shipping agent it should be smooth sailing. At least in theory.
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sounds like a job for importer exporter extraordinaire, Art Vandelay .. :?
who else has that kind of time and money to pull off such a scheme ..
who else has that kind of time and money to pull off such a scheme ..
Jonathan1981
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
if anyone can do this, it's Art Vandelay....
macribs
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
I didn't say it was easy, and if it was easy we would all do it and the professional middle man (Luna et.al) would all die. As for the money, it will be way cheaper then buying the Sur Ron over the counter in north america, EU etc. If you look at other group buys done here at the forum for the past decade I am certain each and every one in charge of a group buy will tell you it PITA to keep momentum, hard to get people to commit and pay up when that final date for payment arrive and sometimes hard dealing with the Chinese vendors because of language barriers, different culture and holiday seasons etc.
But as always if something is tough to do, it can be even more rewarding. And the carrot on the fra end of the stick is the lower price. Each and every potential group buyer participant will have to weigh the benefits against the warranty, possible outlay from paying for parts shipped back and forth should problems occur etc. On the one hand, many buyers will strip much of the original bike anyway, replace controller, brakes, suspension, handlebars, chain, sprockets, and what have you. And so far I have not seen one report of failure of the frame or the battery. So for those looking to "hot-rod" their sur ron, thereby taking the bike out of warranty anyway I would say a group buy makes perfect sense. Your money saved would go a long way to get higher quality parts.
I believe its totally legal to ship the bike from China to USA. This means its all up to finding a reputable agent who knows how to do it. If everything is legal, like not trying to hide anything, change classification, or change the value of the bike, it will clear customs and get to your house. Customs won't play games over here in USA.
The biggest issue right now is finding a reputable agent who will deal with all of this. That is not exactly easy because of the language barrier.
All I'm doing right now is just going to compare the cost, maybe in the end its not worth it.
The biggest issue right now is finding a reputable agent who will deal with all of this. That is not exactly easy because of the language barrier.
All I'm doing right now is just going to compare the cost, maybe in the end its not worth it.
here is the latest response from another agent ( superbuy). I even asked this agent if they could ship the bike without the battery,
Hello Ryan
Thank you for your reply.
So sorry again. I check with our logistics suppliers. They can’t ship this product.
1. It is high value cargoes and very big, need export license and the shipper should do the customs declaration in China Customs by themselves
2. Our agent in Canada can’t finish the customs clearance for this product.
3. Motorcycle will be collected huge tax even double or triple than the cargo value in your side.
To sum up, the logistics suppliers reject to ship this product.
Maybe you can contact the seller directly for shipping solution will be better as they are specialized in this product.
Best Regard
Merry
Hello Ryan
Thank you for your reply.
So sorry again. I check with our logistics suppliers. They can’t ship this product.
1. It is high value cargoes and very big, need export license and the shipper should do the customs declaration in China Customs by themselves
2. Our agent in Canada can’t finish the customs clearance for this product.
3. Motorcycle will be collected huge tax even double or triple than the cargo value in your side.
To sum up, the logistics suppliers reject to ship this product.
Maybe you can contact the seller directly for shipping solution will be better as they are specialized in this product.
Best Regard
Merry
macribs
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Offroader said:
Yes you are right, it is legal and companies does this every day. The important thing is to find an agent that follows the rule book. They need to fill out the needed paper work, that includes the value of the items, as well as what type of goods. In this case because of the batteries the shipping agent will need to put that in writing and there should be no problems. That said there are certain companies or maybe more correct to say certain situations where a shipping company will not accept containers containing Li-ion batteries. I am not 100% sure why, but I can imagine it might got to do with other cargo already on board the ship or maybe the ships classification.
macribs
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ryan1685 said:
Hm seems like the agent might be used to dealing with smaller items or smaller orders? I mean it's not like you are trying to have the value written down to save on import taxes. I know many people when ordering from China demands the declared value to be set lower due to taxes and or VAT. So maybe that is what he figured you where after? Never heard that anyone had to pay triple the value in taxes, so my guess is that guy is either clueless, having translation issues or might just be to lazy to bother checking up.
macribs said:
well there might be a lot of clueless agents over in China, because this about the 10th one I have contacted and they all say the same thing. Starting to get to the point where there is simply no hope. I may just buy the older version from luna and swap out the controller myself
I know someone who is in contact with an agent who said they would ship it. But based on what you are saying, I want to double check that there won't be any issues and if the agent is aware of shipping something with a battery.
I assume you are contacting agents to ship the Sur-Ron by sea freight and not air? If they are trying to ship it air then yes you will have issues with the batteries.
Ryan, do you speak Chinese? Or are you contacting them all in English?
I assume you are contacting agents to ship the Sur-Ron by sea freight and not air? If they are trying to ship it air then yes you will have issues with the batteries.
Ryan, do you speak Chinese? Or are you contacting them all in English?
Offroader said:
My friends wife lives in China and it is her first language, she got the same response from the people at Tao Bao as I did. She was told that it would be very difficult for her to get the bike out of China once it was shipped to her house. I Don't know what I am doing wrong and she is a very astute business women worth millions of dollars. Put it this way, when my friend comes home to Canada for a few months, she has sent him multiple $5000 bills Canadian to live, so she isn't a dumb person by any means, lol not that money is the only benchmark for intelligence.
ryan1685 said:
To load via sea or airfrieght you have to be able to show the factory certified safety certificates for the appropriate transportation, of course the factory would only give these documents to official distributors. Yes the China domestic price is lower than the base price around the world, but when you add in frieght, insurance, import duties, customs clearance and cash flow needed to buy a minimum of 60 units (thats only a 20ft container) then I dont think prices around the globe are that far out, A japanese built motorcycle is of course cheaper in the Japanese domestic market than the US or UK, but we dont all want to import a single bike from Japan just to save £500, official distributors dont forget also have to cover liability insurance, handle recalls and whole host of other regulations (eg in EEC EMC testing, CE approval and secure registration schemes) and also EEC legislation means a proper warranty, plus full spare parts support must be provided.
3DTOPO
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As some here have suggested going tubeless, I thought I would give it a shot on the back tire, which is a Bridgestone M403.
The tire fits too loose in the rim. Trying to fill it up with an air compressor and it just leaks faster than it can develop any appreciable pressure.
I tried soap and water on the bead, but it just seems to lose even want to seat. I bet if I covered the beads with heavy grease (or silicone?) it could have a better chance of sealing, but what a mess that would be!
On bike forms I read people recommending to put in an inner tube, inflate it to seat the beads, then only break one bead to get the inner tube out and install the stemless valve. Seems like when I have changed the tire in the past, once I break the one bead, the other just comes free, so I am hesitant to try.
Any suggestions would be super appreciated! Anyone manage to go tubeless?
The tire fits too loose in the rim. Trying to fill it up with an air compressor and it just leaks faster than it can develop any appreciable pressure.
I tried soap and water on the bead, but it just seems to lose even want to seat. I bet if I covered the beads with heavy grease (or silicone?) it could have a better chance of sealing, but what a mess that would be!
On bike forms I read people recommending to put in an inner tube, inflate it to seat the beads, then only break one bead to get the inner tube out and install the stemless valve. Seems like when I have changed the tire in the past, once I break the one bead, the other just comes free, so I am hesitant to try.
Any suggestions would be super appreciated! Anyone manage to go tubeless?
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3DTOPO said:
don't try this at home kids ..
Using hairspray to make a tire bead :
[youtube]d7bN8WPok9E[/youtube]
Berd
100 µW
urbanmoto said:
Urbanmoto:
Thanks for your post - I agree whole heartedly !.
I recently purchased a light bee from Luna (with whom I have zero financial interest or prior history)
They answered my pre-purchase questions timely and in native speaker English.
Their online order process was very straightforward and the transaction occurred exactly as they said it would.
When I had a minor issue with assembly when I was in "instant gratification gotta put it together now" mode - they promptly answered my questions and solved my issue so I could go for a first ride before sunset.
I have no reason to believe they wont continue to support me if the need should arise.
Overall I am very pleased with my interactions from Luna and feel they earned their markup.
I have also purchased stuff from China using ebay and alibaba with pretty mixed results.
I wouldn't even consider buying something like a Sur Ron via that channel.
If you want to be successful it takes a whole lot more than just getting the widget into the US cheaply and all of those things cost money.
I have spent the last couple of decades setting up relationships with foreign suppliers to sell products into the North American market.
I have repeatedly been the early adopter who saw the opportunity and flew half way around the world to close the deals.
In return I received exclusivity for some period of time which pretty normal for new products being introduced into new markets.
I don't understand the couple of, Johnny come lately, I am entitled to buy >> one << really cheap, guys posting here.
Want to get one cheap ? Earn it.
1) Learn about the import rules and tariffs, shipping brokers, shippers, insurance, customs brokers, bonding etc.
2) Figure out how you are going to provide some value add to the manufacturer (like Luna clearly does for sur ron).
3) Fly to China, probably more than once to set up the deal.
4) Hire a Chinese lawyer to write up the contracts that probably wont help if things go sideways.
5) Front the $400k to a Chinese company for a container load.
6) Build a web site to market and sell the product
7) Sell that container load without destroying the margin in the sales channel because if you do you arn't adding value.
8 ) Support the customer base with pre and post sales support.
9) Figure out what to do when tariffs are applied retroactively to products already on the way. The tariff's will likely destroy the value proposition you thought you had.
After all that you will probably be able to get one free but you may not have time to ride it because you will be too busy running your new small business.
If all of that hard work sounds too difficult and time consuming, buy one from Luna as a way of thanking them for doing all that they do.
Need a Surron LB parts list?
see https://surron.co.uk/blogs/news
PDF link, more data will go live next week, but they have in stock most items - Throttle cables, RST front Axles, Master Fuses, Brakes, switches, battery covers etc
see https://surron.co.uk/blogs/news
PDF link, more data will go live next week, but they have in stock most items - Throttle cables, RST front Axles, Master Fuses, Brakes, switches, battery covers etc
macribs
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urbanmoto said:
Valid points urbanmoto. There is a reason we got importers, they are the midle man when things go south. And they are the ones we go to when trouble arise, and they will need to sort their customers out. With parallell import/gray import the end customer got all the risk, and if something goes wrong and they are even able to get the manufacturer to admit and take responsible (not a given outcome) they will at the very least need to cover shipping of old parts and return shipping for the new. And there is a new risk, even if the factory say they will submit to your claim, when the faulty part is returned their inspection can result in what they call a "false claim", user error or miss usage and you end up with a two shipping fee, lots of stress and you get your broken parts back months later.
Looking at the big picture I would say importing on your own is stress, hard work and you need to be sure there is a dividend at the end. For 500 I would not consider it worth while, for 1000 still to much pita, around 1500 it might start to make sense. But if no shipping agents are up for the task it is a moot point and not a feasible option anyway. Put in extra hours at work or drop some luxury items in your every day life a month or two or whatever time is needed to get the bike via proper channels.
As for shipping rules and regulations I don't think it is entirely correct that you need papers from manufacturer. I know of a guy that the winter before las did a large purchase from China of electric robotic lawn movers. A container full. He shopped around for the lowest prices from several vendors and had a Chinese delivery address for collecting the items and re package into a container, and shipped it to EU. When I talked to him he too had trouble finding shipping for the lot, but as the goods was already bought and paid for giving up was not an option and he got it all sorted via emails, phones calls and didn't need to make a trip to China to solve this himself. Unless there are newer regulations since he did his shopping a year and a half back, there is a clausal where you can declare the goods yourself and that will be ok and legal. I don't know more of the details but for him it got all sorted and he sold out the lot when the container arrived, I think he kept like 10% of them for warranty claims, parts and replacement.
That said, I think we really need a new take on the whole Li-ion hazard shipping thing.
@Berd I don't disagree with what you are saying. But I don't think you got the idea of the group buy. The group buy was not a "make money quick idea". It overall goal was not to make money. It was for buyers to get together on a joint purchase to take advantage of the price difference in Chinese domestic market and the international market. No long term relationship needed. And no trip around the world required to close the deal. So most of your listed arguments don't apply for a group buy. As it is not that kind of purchase and sale process you had in mind when you wrote that. The group buy will not try to win a battle with Luna or any other official Sur Ron outlets. They group buy will not give any added value to the end buyer, nor will any problems that might arrive be handed over to the one that organized the group buy. Each individual party joining such a a purchase is left with all the savings and all the risk.
Regarding shipping rules and regulations I agree, if someone will push on with a group buy they will surely need to read up and get a full in depth understanding of the shipping rules and regulations for shipping li-ion.
