new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
SwampDonkey   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by SwampDonkey » Jun 30 2018 8:33am

Scott76308 wrote:
Jun 24 2018 6:22pm
Scott76308 wrote:
Jun 14 2018 12:00pm
Wow!!! Up to 120 pages now. I think I have read about 80 in the past. I finally have my Cyclone build done and sorted out. It was a long road but I now have a kick ass 72v Cyclone full suspension Cannondale mountainbike. Has been done for a few months and I just haven't had time to play with it and have decided to put it up for sale. I hope putting this link is allowed, might be some valuable info in my extremely long add even if you don't want to purchase. It is on the Dallas TX Craigslist.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bik/d ... 72085.html

PS I have decided that I will ship even though I don't have any idea how much that will cost yet.
I am now including Free Shipping to the lower 48 states. $2800 to your door. Image
Wow, sweet bike! What is that chain ring? Looks appropriately HD.

Scott76308   10 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Scott76308 » Jul 02 2018 7:42pm

Chainring is an 1/8 inch fixie, bmx or single speed chainring made for heavy duty 1/8" non shifting chain. It is bolted to a spider made by sick bike parts specifically for the Cyclone.

TOLM   1 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by TOLM » Jul 07 2018 7:01pm

Hello everybody!

Yet another cyclone build

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1530488557/331d ... 323337.jpg

My bike is a 2008 fuji with 68 mm bottom bracket. I bought my kit from luna and overall, installation was not very difficult. I've added a bracket to the bottom tube to help keep the motor in place (it actually feels pretty solid on the kit supplied brackets alone). I also had fo modify the stock brackets a lil (some bending and grinding). I am using a 52 shark battery for now which is obviously a limitation right now. Despite the weak battery the motor still feels very strong. Compared to bbshd programmed to 1500w this kit has way more torque. Overall turned out an awesome bike for riding trails.

TOLM   1 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by TOLM » Jul 07 2018 7:07pm

This is a downtube bottom bracket i am using, consists of two 2 inch frame brackets that i bought from sick bike parts, two 3.5 inch bolts, two nuts and two bent strips of metal from the hardware store (some tools neded: drill, 5 inch bench vise, angle grinder, hammer)

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1531008160/a0ba ... 396579.jpg

Motor installed

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1531008422/acfa ... 396587.jpg

GIGATT   100 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by GIGATT » Jul 13 2018 5:25pm

Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom

Tommm   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jul 13 2018 5:27pm

GIGATT wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:25pm
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom
If it moves a bit forward or backwards it could be a bad hall sensor.

GIGATT   100 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by GIGATT » Jul 13 2018 5:29pm

Greetings, When the motor burns up is it rebuildable? does the same thing always burn up?
flat tire wrote:
Apr 12 2018 7:37pm
So to contribute to the thread I burned out another motor a month ago and I have major news that may affect those of you with a flexing motor.

But first the burning.

Taking about 70-80 volts, this motor really is only suitable for ~1500 watts or so continuous. I ran over 6000 watts at first on 120v and while that bike was faster the motor died after 100 miles. The second one lasted a few hundred @ 60 amps battery 150 amps phase. Here's the problem, I've been riding mostly on the track / trails and I'm getting way faster. At first I wasn't really using my power so as to concentrate on carrying speed but now that I've advanced beyond low power momentum carrying exercises the limitations of the motor have become very apparent. Now I'm running only 40 amps battery, 100 amps phase and I still don't expect this motor to last more than a few hundred miles cuz my right wrist is only becoming less lenient.

:arrow: :arrow: Now major news for people with flexing drives
:arrow: :arrow:
A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.

Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!

GIGATT   100 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by GIGATT » Jul 13 2018 5:31pm

OK thanks. I've heard that it can run without the hall sensor is that accurate?
When I get on the throttle the chain and motor pulsate.
Tommm wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:27pm
GIGATT wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:25pm
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom
If it moves a bit forward or backwards it could be a bad hall sensor.

Alex07   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Alex07 » Jul 13 2018 5:55pm

GIGATT wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:29pm


Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!
[/quote]

Don't bother with the Cyclone HD mounts are junk, some stronger after market ones here
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81711&p=1332185&hi ... e#p1332185

Tommm   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jul 14 2018 4:05am

GIGATT wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:31pm
OK thanks. I've heard that it can run without the hall sensor is that accurate?
When I get on the throttle the chain and motor pulsate.
Tommm wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:27pm
GIGATT wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:25pm
Greetings people,

My Cyclone stopped working randomly.
Currently, when I use the throttle, it makes a high pitched electronic noise and the motor barely moves.
Does anyone know what the problem could be?

Thanks.


.... if aint one thing it is another

Shalom
If it moves a bit forward or backwards it could be a bad hall sensor.
You shouldn't keep trying it or you will have a bigger problem. It depends on the controller if it can do sensorless, but on a mid drive I would be surprised if it worked well.

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Jul 22 2018 11:56pm

GIGATT wrote:
Jul 13 2018 5:29pm
Greetings, When the motor burns up is it rebuildable? does the same thing always burn up?
The coils burn out. If you want to rewind them, then yes the motor is very much rebuildable. Unfortunately it's a pain in the ass to get the old wire out, and then it's a standard rewind (tedious job requiring attention to detail).

GIGATT   100 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by GIGATT » Aug 06 2018 10:41am

Greetings,

Does this Hall sensor fix still work for you?

Is a new PCB board needed or are hall sensors located in the board?

Thank you for the info in advance.

[quoted=robocam post_id=1224666 time=1474429220 user_id=38182]
Hi, you can open the back cover by removing the 4 screws. Then gently tap the back off using a hammer and screwdriver. Tap a little at a time at different places around the back. Then do the same thing to the other side. You do not need to remove the pinion gear. I wiped off the blue grease with a glove and spread it over the plastic gears. Then I used a bunch of hex sockets to keep the other side open. The magnets will resist (you'll see what I mean when you try it).

I then used a radiator hose pick to remove the sensors. They're in there pretty tight. To install the new ones, just put them in place and use a couple wire ties to loosely hold the board in place. Paco said they don't need to be glued in.

Image

Image

jk1 wrote:Robocam you changed your hall sensors, do you have any info or photos on how you do it ? where they glued into position ? and how did you get the motor open and change them ?
[/quote]

GIGATT   100 mW

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Re: Hot Spot Motor Temperature and Thermistor Placement

Post by GIGATT » Sep 01 2018 10:17am

Greetings, this motor no longer works right?

DingusMcGee wrote:
Feb 19 2017 9:31am
At zero RPM and full throttle the motor heats up very fast if you have the amps. From my burned out C-3000 motor the places of burned varnish on the copper wires was not everywhere equal. The copper coil heated excessively, where due to extra thermal resistance the heat could not escape as readily as those areas having no covering over the coils. Compare a couple of photos for the difference of varnish burn with more insulation above the copper coils:

mod IMG_6750.jpg

mod IMG_6751.jpg

The places that heat up the most are called hot spots in electric motor life enhancement. A web article on motor heating & hot spots says to allow some 10 C to 20 C below insulation ratings for such places when setting a temp limit shut off. I think this means that if you place a thermistor not at a hot spot set shutoff temp lower by that amount. The lowest motor insulation rating for some American motor standard is 130 C. I know the Cromotor is advertised to take temps to 125 C -- are these hot spots? I haven't taken the plates off my Cromotor to see where they have placed the thermistor.

Potentially there are at least two materials that can be destroyed due to motor over heating: The copper wire varnish and the magnetism of the perm magnets. The Curie Temperature is the temperature that magnets lose their magnetism. From Wiki I see this temp can be less than 100 C for some magnets. The magnets on my overheated motor were still good but I had no idea at what temp the motor magnets got when the varnish was burned. I decided to further test the magnets to know what temperatures they could withstand. First I put the rotor in boiling water and no change was noticed in magnetic strength. Next I put the lid on the pressure cooker and got the magnets up to 250F but they were still good.

mod IMG_6749.jpg

250F = 121C for the magnets but since on my once hot motor the magnets showed no weakening while the varnish burned I suspect the Curie Temp of the magnets exceeds the copper wire varnish insulation temp max. Let's hope the Cyclone 3000 motor insulation temp is as good as the lower American Standard which is 130 C. To exceed the insulation temp a little bit does not mean catastrophic failure but a much shortened operating life. They suggest for an over temp: ... In fact, every 10 C rise in operating temperature reduces insulation life by half. .. Up to the threshold and then sudden death??

It would seem best to place the thermistor on a hot spot but the big plastic covered Grin thermistor cannot fit in many likely hot spots. The very small Kelly thermistor will fit under some of copper wire coils next to the steel laminations while the covered Grin thermistor will only fit next to the inside of the motor case -- not exactly where the hot spots are. The winding embedded in the slot is almost always the hottest part,... See:

http://www.plantengineering.com/single- ... 7aed9.html

But it is not easy to get a thermistor in that place, so I put the small Kelly one under the Hall circuit board inside the copper wire loop.

Most interesting was the instant performance for this Kelly thermistor at this location: I set the Kelly Controller to a cutout temp of 96 C and recovery at 80 C. I set the CA V3 to the same temps. After riding 15 miles on smooth gravel [motor at about 30 C by Grin measurement] I got to a small patch of mud and proceeded thru what was mud with gravel. Soon the gravel got caught between the chain and sprockets and would locked the motor. Torque at zero rpm heats the motor quickly and on third gravel hangup the motor had no throttle response -- the Kelly temp cutout had kicked into too hot mode = 96C. To get out of this area [no trail] I had to ride up hill over wet dirt with clumps of grass which was a task the bike could not do for very long until overheating and stopping while then waiting for cooling. All this time the Grin thermistor was reading around 23 C. Once I got back to the gravel road the bike ran at 35 mph for 5 miles and no overheating shut down. On this section there were no instances of max torque at zero rpm. The Kelly controller does send a CAN BUS signal through it errors lights when motor temp reported by thermistor exceeds what you have set in the user program.

I have since moved my max temp allowable to 110C and recovery to 90C and realized the Grin Thermistor when covered in the OEM plastic sheath is worthless for this sensitive task.

Glennn   100 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Glennn » Sep 04 2018 6:05am

I'm trying to wire the cyclone 3000 motor to a new controller (phase runner) but I'm having issues wiring the hall sensors.
Can anyone confirm these color codes are correct;

Red: +5V
Black: GND
Blue: hall sensor 1
Yellow: hall sensor 2
Green: hall sensor 3

I've tried all (6) combo's with the blue/yellow/green wires but every single combination gives an error.
I have a feeling red and black are not 5v+ and GND. Can anyone confirm this is the case?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Sep 04 2018 12:07pm

Glennn wrote:
Sep 04 2018 6:05am
I have a feeling red and black are not 5v+ and GND. Can anyone confirm this is the case?
Red and black are +5V and GND on every brushless motor and controller I've ever worked with. They definitely are on all the Cyclones I've set up.

Try swapping a pair of phase wires and then going through the Hall sensors again. Yes, it's annoying. I just went through the whole song and dance recently to reconcile a BMC motor with a Unite controller. Keep at it.

Note that the Cyclone motor has a fault mode where it runs too fast and noisily and draws an inordinate amount of power at no load. Once, one of our pedicab riders in the field ran it in this configuration and burned up the motor almost immediately.

Having a multimeter to check continuity and voltage (+5V, battery resting voltage, voltage under load, and Hall sensor return voltage) is very useful for what you're doing).
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

ryanf55   100 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ryanf55 » Sep 24 2018 5:59pm

Hello,

I was taking apart my Cyclone half twist throttle (going to redesign it), and one of the twist throttle sensor pins came apart. I can only read the 2nd line of text on it as "5030". Has anybody taken their apart, or mind posting a close up of the IC so I can order a new one?

Edit: I was able to read the serial number. Although I couldn't find an exact match, I found that it's a hall effect sensor, and this one was from the same series with similar output characteristics.
https://www.addicore.com/SS49E-Linear-H ... /ad316.htm

Since I'm using an Arduino to remap and smooth the throttle command, it should be easy to account for any differences. Plus, with GPS, I get to disable the motor if it's outside of my town. Thief protection at it's finest.
Thanks,
Ryan

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pwd   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Sep 26 2018 10:16am

Does anyone know what is up with the shipping costs on http://www.cyclone-tw.com ?

I wanted to price out a kit but when I add it to my cart (PayPal or not), the shipping cost is is 10X the amount of the order!
For example:
Screenshot_20180926_111544.png
Current Build:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
em3ev 14S5P 30Q + 14S6P 25R pack
Build Thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=98286

Old Build:
GIANT ATX 980 w/ Cycle Analyst v2.25
Golden Motor Magic Pie (internal controller) X2
14S3P 15aH: 6X 6S 5000mAh + 3X 2S 5000mAh LiPo pack

Tommm   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Sep 26 2018 10:19am

pwd wrote:
Sep 26 2018 10:16am
Does anyone know what is up with the shipping costs on http://www.cyclone-tw.com ?

I wanted to price out a kit but when I add it to my cart (PayPal or not), the shipping cost is is 10X the amount of the order!
For example:
Screenshot_20180926_111544.png
Contact by email, shipping costs are reasonable and if you buy multiple items prices are negotiable too.

MarkLeeds   1 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by MarkLeeds » Sep 28 2018 9:43am

My cyclone build, thanks everyone for all your help and ideas.

Image

TOLM   1 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by TOLM » Sep 30 2018 7:27am

⬆ wow you squeezed that thing. Can you post more pics how you did it? Curious about the mounts, etc.

Thanks

ryanf55   100 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ryanf55 » Oct 01 2018 10:58am

Chalo wrote:
Sep 04 2018 12:07pm
Having a multimeter to check continuity and voltage (+5V, battery resting voltage, voltage under load, and Hall sensor return voltage) is very useful for what you're doing).
How do you check the signals under load? The best I've done is tape the multimeter to the frame and ride it.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Oct 01 2018 12:15pm

ryanf55 wrote:
Oct 01 2018 10:58am
Chalo wrote:
Sep 04 2018 12:07pm
Having a multimeter to check continuity and voltage (+5V, battery resting voltage, voltage under load, and Hall sensor return voltage) is very useful for what you're doing).
How do you check the signals under load? The best I've done is tape the multimeter to the frame and ride it.
You can do that, or get yourself a cheap onboard voltmeter that can double as a state of charge meter.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

ryanf55   100 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ryanf55 » Oct 03 2018 12:15am

Chalo wrote:
Oct 01 2018 12:15pm
ryanf55 wrote:
Oct 01 2018 10:58am
Chalo wrote:
Sep 04 2018 12:07pm
Having a multimeter to check continuity and voltage (+5V, battery resting voltage, voltage under load, and Hall sensor return voltage) is very useful for what you're doing).
How do you check the signals under load? The best I've done is tape the multimeter to the frame and ride it.
You can do that, or get yourself a cheap onboard voltmeter that can double as a state of charge meter.
That's easy:)

So I got the replacement throttle hall sensor working. Had to use an Arduino to invert the signal, but it works alright. For whatever reason, the new sensor is very jittery, and makes the throttle jump around a bunch, so I implemented some mediocre filtering. Also, the controller is sending 4.5V out to the sensor, which prohibits a 5V arduino from being used!
IMG_20181002_225810__01__01.jpg

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 04 2018 7:02am

Use a limiting diode of 4.5 volts or program some limits with the Aurdrino.

MarkLeeds   1 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by MarkLeeds » Oct 04 2018 12:36pm

TOLM wrote:
Sep 30 2018 7:27am
⬆ wow you squeezed that thing. Can you post more pics how you did it? Curious about the mounts, etc.

Thanks
Really sorry but I'm flat out with work so don't have time right now. I took loads of pictures and will do a proper build thread soon. The motor mounts attach to the crank same as the stock mount but also attach to the rear suspension mounts. I used longer bolts and spacers so the suspension still works. I designed the brackets using a free program called inkscape and printed the mounts on paper which I glued to cardboard. When happy i made some plywood versions. After much faffing/many iterations I emailed the design to my local laser printers and had them made out of 5mm thick aluminium. Cost was maybe 70 USD. They are as solid as rock and i've had no problems so far. I also designed my battery cases in a similar way, there are 2 and each holds 40 cells and are made out of 3mm thick aluminium.

This bike is absolutely awesome, it has far exceeded my expectations - thanks again everyone for posting such great ideas.

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