Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

MadRhino said:

wturber said:

... The laws aren't designed for their exceptional performance and tolerating their rare exception is no great burden on traffic or society. But if you suddenly have many thousands riding at those speeds, the complexion of things changes.

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As long as street usage have speed limits, the performance of cyclists, ebikes or motorcycles is irrelevant.

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... excepts as it relates to things like brake lights, turn signals, brake performance, tire reliability and so forth. Hence the general requirement for registration, liability insurance etc. At least, this is sensible from the standpoint of rights and responsibilities.

But from the standpoint of safety per trip, riding a two wheeled vehicle in regular traffic is about 60 times more deadly than riding in a car and about 25 times more deadly than riding a bicycle. If you go by traffic miles, motorcycles are only about 27 times more deadly than cars. I have no good stats on bicycle deaths per passenger mile. Estimating bicycle traffic miles is harder and the numbers less definite. But on a per mile basis bicycles are somewhere between three and ten times as likely to result in a death than cars. Even the worst case is far batter than for motorcycles traveling normally with traffic.

So, pick yer poison. Ride with traffic at speed and live with the very high risk or ride at a lower bicycle-like speeds with reduced overall risk but a handfull of other compromises.

liveforphysics said:

If cars don't pass you, or pass you less, your number of car death dice rolls reduces drastically.

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The death statistics don't seem to bear this theory out. I think you have drastically oversimplified what is really happening.

liveforphysics said:

Everytime a car passes you, it's a dice roll on whether they are texting and only notice you from the BUMP BUMP as they go under the tires.

If cars don't pass you, or pass you less, your number of car death dice rolls reduces drastically.

No prizes awarded for getting slaughtered by cars by riding slow ebikes, you just die having ridden a boring bike first.

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Your reasoning is contradicted by the safety record of motorcycles versus bicycles. Motorcycles keep up nicely with other motor traffic, and are a much more efficient way to get maimed or killed.

Slower is safer. That's proven. The feeling of safety that comes from having high speed available is only a subjective impression, easily dispelled by data.

wturber said:

...on a per mile basis bicycles are somewhere between three and ten times as likely to result in a death than cars.

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Obviously, your stats are not taking into account all the lives taken by cars, by their sole existance, manufacturing, pollution and disposal. The usage of personnal cars had taxed a great deal of lives already, and likely to decimate humanity if we continue to expand its usage at the actual rate. At the point that we are now, our usage of cars will continue to kill people a long time after we stopped using them.

Cars need to be severely taxed and regulated, for it is the only way to stop the growth, and limit the damages. Any clean and light mode of transportation that is helping to reduce the usage of personnal cars, should have a free pass at least, even incitative measures and advantages.

As luke said the lines are imaginary. Many ebikes could qualify for more than one category. The earliest motorcycles had pedals to get started and were very slow but almost everybody considers them motorcycles even though they were motorized bikes.

What kind of parts are on it and are there pedals? To me at least a few bike parts, and usually but not always pedals, make a ebike. They can also be considered light motorcycles, or whatever else you want really.

MadRhino said:

wturber said:

...on a per mile basis bicycles are somewhere between three and ten times as likely to result in a death than cars.

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Obviously, your stats are not taking into account all the lives taken by cars, by their sole existance, manufacturing, pollution and disposal. The usage of personnal cars had taxed a great deal of lives already, and likely to decimate humanity if we continue to expand its usage at the actual rate. At the point that we are now, our usage of cars will continue to kill people a long time after we stopped using them.

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The issue being discussed wasn't and isn't how good or bad cars are. The issue is how safe it is to operate a two wheeled non-enclosed vehicle at traffic speeds as opposed to operating at bicycle-like speeds. It seems pretty clear that operating at traffic speeds is a LOT more likely to result in death than operating at bicycle-like speeds.

flat tire said:

As luke said the lines are imaginary. Many ebikes could qualify for more than one category.

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Many of the lines aren't imaginary at all. They are written into law. Now whether those laws get enforced or not is a whole 'nuther thing.

wturber said:

The issue being discussed wasn't and isn't how good or bad cars are. The issue is how safe it is to operate a two wheeled non-enclosed vehicle at traffic speeds as opposed to operating at bicycle-like speeds. It seems pretty clear that operating at traffic speeds is a LOT more likely to result in death than operating at bicycle-like speeds.

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Well, you said yourself, that motorcycles are much safer than bicycles on the street. Why is that, if not because they are fast enough that cars are not passing them all the time...

Luke is right. Everytime a car is passing you is a risk you can’t control, and the reason why bicycles are at a higher risk than motorcycles. You may have the illusion of being safer because of the low speed, but the real danger is the speed of those around you.

The actual ebike laws, at best are making you an obstacle to trafic flow and at worst, a target for the unconscious or agressive cagers.

MadRhino said:

Well, you said yourself, that motorcycles are much safer than bicycles on the street. Why is that, if not because they are fast enough that cars are not passing them all the time...

Luke is right. Everytime a car is passing you is a risk you can’t control, and the reason why bicycles are at a higher risk than motorcycles.

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You're mistaken. The data on fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles in the USA show that motorcycling is between 3 and 4 times more likely to kill you, per mile, than bicycling. You are entitled to your opinion, but that's not a matter of opinion. It's on the public record.

MadRhino said:

wturber said:

The issue being discussed wasn't and isn't how good or bad cars are. The issue is how safe it is to operate a two wheeled non-enclosed vehicle at traffic speeds as opposed to operating at bicycle-like speeds. It seems pretty clear that operating at traffic speeds is a LOT more likely to result in death than operating at bicycle-like speeds.

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Well, you said yourself, that motorcycles are much safer than bicycles on the street. Why is that, if not because they are fast enough that cars are not passing them all the time...

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No, that's not what I said. I said quite the opposite. Motorcycles are many times less safe than bicycles whether measured per trip or per mile. Luke is quite wrong. The death statistics show motorcycles are much more dangerous than bicycles. That's why I made the very simple point that his "fewer cars passing" model is overly simplistic. My guess is that the significantly higher forces (four times) involved when there is an accident at 50 mph vs. 25 mph is the big thing he's not considering. The other is that bicyclist probably tend to avoid high traffic streets and actually encounter fewer cars per mile or trip than do motorcyclists.

Well, I don’t know about USA, but here we have more cyclists death per mile traveled, than motorcyclists. Cyclists have much more frequent accidents especially, and in 72% of the cases it is a collision with a car. Cycling in the city here, is a survival exercise.

Those motorcycle statistics are badly distorted by idiot riders, and that's whether they're riding like asses or simply riding in an insufficiently alert and defensive manner. I'll take riding at traffic speeds in a manner where my survival is up to me riding mistake-free over being a slow moving obstacle for motorists to see and avoid any day of the week, and by mistake free I also include being able to foresee and avoid the mistakes of motorists. For more convenient and fun transportation I accept and take into full account that I am utterly exposed and harder to see than I would be if enclosed in a 2 ton steel cage.

MadRhino said:

Well, I don’t know about USA, but here we have more cyclists death per mile traveled, than motorcyclists. Cyclists have much more frequent accidents especially, and in 72% of the cases it is a collision with a car. Cycling in the city here, is a survival exercise.

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Do you have actual stats for Montreal? One of the sources I used was published by the University of British Columbia.

http://cyclingincities.spph.ubc.ca/injuries/

John in CR said:

Those motorcycle statistics are badly distorted by idiot riders, and that's whether they're riding like asses or simply riding in an insufficiently alert and defensive manner. ...

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And you somehow don't think that there are similar rates of idiotic behavior among cyclists? The University of British Columbia publication puts motorcycle death rates at about 25 times that of bicycles. I don't see how idiotic motorcyclist behavior can account for a death rate 25 times higher or even ten times higher and probably not even two times higher.

Addendum: This article does some adjusting and comes up with an estimate of 13 times higher death rate per kilometer for motorcycles than cars in all of Canada. https://fortnine.ca/en/how-dangerous-are-motorcycles/

Everywhere I look it seems that motorcycles are the least safe. We can certainly debate whether we should measure by trip numbers, distance traveled or my personal preference (but hard to find) time exposed, but it is always seems to be many times higher.

wturber said:

Luke is quite wrong. The death statistics show motorcycles are much more dangerous than bicycles. That's why I made the very simple point that his "fewer cars passing" model is overly simplistic. My guess is that the significantly higher forces (four times) involved when there is an accident at 50 mph vs. 25 mph is the big thing he's not considering.

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The effects of speed on situational awareness and reaction time window both make accidents more likely as speed increases.

Chalo said:

The effects of speed on situational awareness and reaction time window both make accidents more likely as speed increases.

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For that, I agree. Yet, I find a crash much more acceptable when I do it by myself. Crashing is part of the riding game and I accepted it a long time ago. Yet, being a target for cagers to run me over from behind is not a deal I signed for.

Here in Montreal we have more than 900 collisions with bicycles, avg per year. Numbers are including only accidents reported to the police, so it is realistic to double this number at least.

I personnally, had never reported a bicycle or ebike accident to the police, and I believe most bicycle accidents reported are those that require emergency transportation to hospitals. Here we don’t need an accident report for heath care, and the government road insurance is based on ‘no fault’, meaning it does cover anything anyhow. You can ride a 40hp wheelbarrel if you are crazy or blind drunk, you are 100% covered.

Street accident fatalities in the city are pretty low. People kill themselves on highways and countryside roads, but they hurt themselves a lot in the city trafic, cyclists and pedestrians first.

John in CR said:

Those motorcycle statistics are badly distorted by idiot riders...

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BINGO. Hehe... I continue to maintain that about half the human population are of less than average intelligence. It's a complicated "math thing". Where the REAL killers are folks operating weapons of mass destruction in urban space. :wink:

Years ago there was detailed research data that showed the motorcycle accident rates for the first six months of riding were four times the long term rate, and the long term rates of experienced riders were the same as for cars, per mile. The motorcycle overall rates were dominated by new riders, weekend warriors and by riders that have moved up to a larger, faster, more powerful bike and don't yet have the experience and maturity to ride them safely.

The accident rates were dominated by these "inexperienced" and "weekend" riders that didn't have adequate, proficiency for safe riding. This is likely still true. Long term commuters were in a different class safety wise but were a small proportion of the total.

I commuted on motorcycles for years and many tens of thousands of miles without accidents. It can be done, but only by those not intoxicated with power, speed and excessive risk. I know other riders who did this as well. Those focused on safety can generally find it. Those focused on speed may have more difficulty finding safety, but they do find spectacular accidents on occasion.

Unfortunately most statistics don't have enough details collected to properly interpret (and classify) them. In order to get useful statistics on motorcycle accidents they had to followup on each accident and collect additional information that police reports did not contain. Studies based on available data without additional (expensive) research shed little light on real understanding.

The weight of these machines varies a lot. Ebikes are generally 50-80 pounds, mopeds 80-150 pounds, motorcycles 300-600+ pounds. You'll feel the difference riding or being hit by one. Classify them by momentum or kinetic energy, it is a huge range.

MadRhino said:

Chalo said:

The effects of speed on situational awareness and reaction time window both make accidents more likely as speed increases.

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For that, I agree. Yet, I find a crash much more acceptable when I do it by myself. Crashing is part of the riding game and I accepted it a long time ago. Yet, being a target for cagers to run me over from behind is not a deal I signed for.

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Getting rear-ended by a car is one of the least common scenarios in the real world. It weighs heavily on our minds only because there's not much we can do to avoid it. Statistically, cars are many times more likely to hit you with a right or left cross, and the likelihood of that happening increases with the bike's speed.

I used to ride fast motorcycles, and it's true the feeling of being in control is greater than when I'm on a slow e-bike. But more things could and did go wrong.

I have never been hit on the side in half a century riding the streets. Those who I know that did, are dead or crippled. Twice a car did hit my rear wheel, once while I was stopped, the other when I wasn’t quick enough to avoid him completely.

My typical crash is laying down the bike and slide after avoiding a hit, sometimes with a small hit before or at the end of the slide. I have had bikes hard crashed to scrap, but I wasn’t there anymore to take the hit. I never suffered major damages riding the street, many scratches and a few broken bones but nothing dramatic. My bad crashes were off road, most of my crashes were off road anyway. My average is one crash every 2 or 3 years on the street, 5 or 6 per year off road. This year I broke a small finger on a car and a big toe on a curb, in 2 different minor accidents.

So far, bulls and horses and skiing had been much harder on my body than bikes and motorcycles.

MadRhino said:

My typical crash ....

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Kinda says something , there.

The roads and paths are a commons.
Health care is a commons. We all share the risk.
Both are crowded and the mass of users needs appropriate safeguards for common welfare
Motor bike safety often talks in terms of the elastic "envelope" where your control and safety are optimized.
Clearly there are a lot of problems with combining different vehicles/modes in shared space.
EU rules making more sense to me, now.
>15 mph / more than tiny assist, It ain't a bicycle-> License, Tag, Inspect, Insure It's no different from Fire Inspections.
If you are going to play in the street, you are going to have to be an adult or require adult supervision
Totally do able.

onemorejoltwarden said:

...License, Tag, Inspect, Insure It's no different from Fire Inspections.
If you are going to play in the street, you are going to have to be an adult or require adult supervision
Totally do able.

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Illusion of safety is typical of the modern society. No license, tag, inspection or insurance can save you. It’s a jungle out there. Since the 60’s when I started riding, vehicles and rules have changed a lot, but a rider’s awareness is still the only thing that can save his bones. Riders are responsible for themselves, since they accepted the risk of riding.

Different vehicles require different resources and infrastructures, that is making their real cost to society. For the common good, the bigger and the more resources consuming a vehicle is, the more it should be controlled and taxed. It is a matter of economic and environmental consequences.

Government who believe that citizens must be saved from themselves are not any better than religious integrists who want to enforce their illusions to everyone else.

MadRhino said:

My average is one crash every 2 or 3 years on the street, 5 or 6 per year off road.

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Off road I understand, I drop my 1200 GS on pretty much every ride because I consciously attempt things that I know I might not be able to do (hill climbs or whatever). But if you crash every other year on the road you must surely be doing something wrong, or riding somewhere with insanely dangerous traffic?

On topic though - I totally agree that the lines are being blurred between pedal-assist 250W e-bikes on the one end and full on electric motorcycles on the other. I have just placed on order for a Qulbix Q140MD which sits pretty much in the middle of those extremes. 50kg, 55 kph (with off road gearing), and physically the same size as a mountain bike. In reality it will come down to how I ride it. If I treat it like a bicycle with some extra power available, and try to blend in with other low-powered or pedestrian traffic I doubt anyone will notice. If I ride it like a motocross bike on foot paths or through town on the other hand I am pretty sure I will end up with a hefty fine and a confiscated bike within a few months.

MadRhino said:

onemorejoltwarden said:

...License, Tag, Inspect, Insure It's no different from Fire Inspections.
If you are going to play in the street, you are going to have to be an adult or require adult supervision
Totally do able.

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Illusion of safety is typical of the modern society. No license, tag, inspection or insurance can save you.

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That stuff isn't for you. It's for everybody else who must share the road with you. It gives the rest of us some reasonable assurance that you have a roadworthy vehicle, that you can make good on your liabilities when something goes wrong, and that you've paid part of the cost of the system that assures these things.

I think the fees on motor vehicles should be much, much higher, to partially compensate the public for harm done to quality of life, and to discourage their use. And I think those fees should be proportional to the maximum motor-powered kinetic energy of the vehicle in question.

Government who believe that citizens must be saved from themselves are not any better than religious integrists who want to enforce their illusions to everyone else.

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It's not about saving you from yourself. It's about protecting the rest of us from you (or whoever else plays fast and loose with the common good).