Alan B
100 GW
The accident rates and damage have more to do with the driver's skill, experience and care than the vehicle.
Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle
- Thread starter GregO
- Start date
MadRhino
100 GW
The rider is alway the one hurt in a crash and often, other users of the street are responsible.Chalo said:
Since I am riding, I never did hurt anyone except for the sentiments that they had for their precious sheet metal.
Then about fair share of tax, I have been paying more than 50 years and still pay, for the enormous amount of infrastructures and resources that cagers require. I am a rider, and don’t need all that sh*t and space. They force me to ride on their terrain that is freaking dangerous for any rider, and to pay for it because their license plates and gas tax is not even covering half of the expenses. And, that is not considering the inconveniences and damages they cause to my share of the environment.
MadRhino
100 GW
Alan B said:
Exactly. There are careful riders that have very few crashes in their life, sport riders that have a lot of crashes with minor damages, and unconscious riders that are at very high risk of severe injury.
Cars are different. They cause the driver to isolate himself from the environment. Some drivers who are careful and conscious in life, suddenly become agressive, distracted, or plain idiots behind a steering wheel. Not all of them of course, but there is some percentage of population that should never be allowed to drive a car.
Chalo
100 TW
MadRhino said:
Surely there are also a few car drivers who operate in such a way that they never threaten or harm anybody. But have a license and insurance just like everybody else. The law is there for a reason, but it doesn't have the means to decide who's the problem that needs a solution. And it's the same for motorcyclists-- some are terrible and some are completely benign. But they all have the same administrative responsibilities.
Chalo
100 TW
Alan B said:
For any given category of vehicle, sure. But try to cause as much damage with a pedal bike as with a dump truck and you'll notice a difference that no amount of skill and care can compensate for. Motorcycles occupy a place in between, but it's folly to say they're equivalent to bicycles in terms of public hazard.
MadRhino
100 GW
Driving a car does harm everybody, and everything alive on this planet. When a car does hit somebody, it is only the visible top of the iceberg.Chalo said:
In dense population cities of Asia, bicycles and motorcycles own the streets. They have precedence on cars and we should do the same, for it is the only deterrent to convince people to stop using them in the cities.
Philaphlous
1 kW
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2017
- Messages
- 431
So I ebike in DC. Let me tell you. Driving is scary enough. People here...and elsewhere are just flat out careless. Careless enough that you see on the news that good people lose their lives everyday from completely preventable accidents. I think I've had it happen 4-5 times alrwady but I can't tell you the number of times people cut into the bike lane without even looking. Their lazy commute has lulled them into thinking they won't ever get hurt and they won't ever hurt anyone else when it's the very things they don't do that hurt people. I've been guilty of this in my younger life when I was so excited to go skiing..jumped in my car...pulled out and right into a student driver that had just turned the corner. I checked my mirrors but didn't take the extra 1 second to do the head turn and walla... Thankfully no damage..but still...that was like 8 years ago...
Anywho. Bike riding has given me a new found level of awareness and safety that I constantly check my mirrors and consider alternates when driving if I need to practice defensive driving tactics. People here just merge without looking and never use turn signals...Amazon contractors will literally use their vehicles as battering rams and try to jam you into curbs...it's dangerous out there.
I'm hoping to change up my bike route here soon to almost all path riding in the city into work. I ride on some busy streets and it gets pretty crazy out there. The infrastructure required to maintain a simple 8ft wide bike path is pretty insignificant compared to the roads and bridges we spend millions on every day...
Anywho. Bike riding has given me a new found level of awareness and safety that I constantly check my mirrors and consider alternates when driving if I need to practice defensive driving tactics. People here just merge without looking and never use turn signals...Amazon contractors will literally use their vehicles as battering rams and try to jam you into curbs...it's dangerous out there.
I'm hoping to change up my bike route here soon to almost all path riding in the city into work. I ride on some busy streets and it gets pretty crazy out there. The infrastructure required to maintain a simple 8ft wide bike path is pretty insignificant compared to the roads and bridges we spend millions on every day...
ScooterMan101
1 MW
The safest speeds for a E-Bike are dependent on the Frame and Components used,
All you have to do is look at the latest 8 or so years of Down Hill Bike Design and the brakes they use.
It is that easy.
So you can go the speeds ( legal speeds ) that a Motorcycle can go, as long as you have a strong Frame, Good Long Wheelbase and Stable/Slack Geometry , and very good 4 piston brakes ,
and ...
A Mature Mental Attitude.
All you have to do is look at the latest 8 or so years of Down Hill Bike Design and the brakes they use.
It is that easy.
So you can go the speeds ( legal speeds ) that a Motorcycle can go, as long as you have a strong Frame, Good Long Wheelbase and Stable/Slack Geometry , and very good 4 piston brakes ,
and ...
A Mature Mental Attitude.
GregO said:
Chalo
100 TW
ScooterMan101 said:
Have these two things ever been found to occur together?
MadRhino
100 GW
Chalo said:ScooterMan101 said:
Have these two things ever been found to occur together?
I suppose that those with a mature mental attitude are slow riding wallbikes on crooked wheels and no brakes.
Riding a good bike and maintain it in perfect condition is mature. Riding DH trails is not a sport for idiots, who are not doing it very long when they try it anyway. It is about learning to tune and maintain the best components, and train to be able to deal with the most difficult situations that a rider has to face. Those who can do it 5 seasons are very conscious riders. Those who had done it 15 years, are in total control of a bike at any time, anywhere.
wturber
1 MW
Alan B said:
That's an oversimplification. You have to actually be doing the right things if the goal is to be safer. And that's the problem with the notion that on a two wheeled vehicle, keeping up with or going faster than prevailing traffic is safer than going slower and riding more like a bicycle. Unless we are to believe that motorcyclists are on average about 10-20 times less skilled, dumber, dare-devilish and so forth than cyclists, there's a problem with that notion. There is clearly an advantage to flowing with average traffic speeds. But that analysis ignores the other factors (previously mentioned) that are significant disadvantages.
I suppose that if a motorcycle rider took it to extremes and tried to mimic the avoidance of cars that a bicyclist focused on safety would attempt, then a motorcycle might come pretty close to traveling as safely as that kind of safety minded cyclist. Their biggest difficulty will probably be that they won't have as many traffic/car avoidance options as the typical cyclist has. They won't have the sidewalk option, bike lanes, or bike paths. But they can choose lower speed and less traveled roads. As a practical matter, I figure this person is rare and more imagined than real. Hardly any motorcyclists (except maybe scooter riders) are going to alter and slow their routes significantly in order to avoid interacting with cars. After all, those riders have typically chosen the faster ride option precisely because they want to get to their destinations faster. They don't want to travel on 25, 30 and 35 mph streets. I don't see many motorcyclists winding their way to work on the less direct, low traveled residential and semi-residential roads I mostly use.
While your riding habits can certainly increase your safety substantially compared to the average of your rider type group, your risks are still significantly affected by the fundamental characteristics of that group that are, by definition, inescapable.
wturber
1 MW
ScooterMan101 said:
That ignores traffic conditions.
ScooterMan101 said:
Sure. Just don't kid yourself that this is as safe as taking lower speed, low traveled back roads, bike paths, sidewalks and bike lanes on a slower speed ebike. What you described is as safe as riding a decent motorcycle ... cuz that's what you would be doing.
MadRhino
100 GW
The main problem with motorcycles is that kids without any experience can ride a 160 HP racing bike, in a group of riders.
Nothing is worse than riding in a group, and next is having power that you can’t control safely. I’d say third is antagononism, because the rider can’t win in conflictual behaviour with other users of the road. Then comes dope and alcool, for riding does require to be alert much more than driving. Riding is dangerous, but the rider is the one risking his bones. Driving is mostly dangerous to others, and that is not acceptable for me. That is one of the reasons why I don’t drive.
Nothing is worse than riding in a group, and next is having power that you can’t control safely. I’d say third is antagononism, because the rider can’t win in conflictual behaviour with other users of the road. Then comes dope and alcool, for riding does require to be alert much more than driving. Riding is dangerous, but the rider is the one risking his bones. Driving is mostly dangerous to others, and that is not acceptable for me. That is one of the reasons why I don’t drive.
MadRhino said:
Or the other extreme, the older guys who now have the time and disposable income, who buy a 1000-lb cruiser and go out and don't have the riding skill to reliably keep it on the road. I sort of resemble that myself, though I picked a slightly lighter and less dorky motorcycle, and seem to have gotten through it without major incident.
I haven't been paying attention, it sounds like we're saying motorcycles have poor accident statistics (true), relative to bicycles (not so sure.) I would want to check those statistics to make sure they're per distance traveled. But for sure, there's a lot that can go seriously wrong very fast on a motorcycle.
ScooterMan101
1 MW
When it comes to safety I do not kid my self , for instance ...
This last Sunday I decided to take my e-bike on a country road that connects to a mountain pass that I was then going to go up. I strapped on my 14s battery packs for faster speeds , however
Just 1 mile into the ride on that road there were so many cars , weekend drivers at that , so I turned onto a little used road to make my back into town to then make my to the north side of town so as to ride on the bike path that goes up to San Jose.
I road that path at about half the speed I was going to ride on the Road .
On Wednesday I decided to ride that road I was going to go up on Sunday however ...
For Safety , I road my Motorcycle .
Instead of cars passing close to me at 20 mph faster than on my bicycle, they go 50 + mph on those back country roads, I now with the Motorcycle was as fast as the cars, in the middle of the lane, no one passing me this time and , some of the cars even pulled over to let me pass them without crossing over into the other lane.
I do have all the Motorcycle Safety gear that I wear when riding the MC, and will be using down hill bicycle safety gear when I finally get a faster e-bike.
Having crashed a Car when I was just 16 years old ,
a Motorcycle lowside crash when I was in my mid 20's ,
I was once rear ended by a drunk driver that was going 60+ mph when he hit me in my car, ( Those East Texas Good Old Boys like to drink and drive )
Plus was in an Ultralight Crash that someone else was piloting,
Plus an emergency landing when my ultralight trike ( two stroke engine powered hang glider ) ran out of gas just 1/2 mile from the landing field,
Plus a couple of Hang Glider Crashes ( not perfect landings ) ,
Plus a Paraglider Crash ( early Pagaglider design that collapsed when I was less than 20 feet over the cliff face ) ,
and numerous bicycle crashes ...
I never kid myself about safety.
This last Sunday I decided to take my e-bike on a country road that connects to a mountain pass that I was then going to go up. I strapped on my 14s battery packs for faster speeds , however
Just 1 mile into the ride on that road there were so many cars , weekend drivers at that , so I turned onto a little used road to make my back into town to then make my to the north side of town so as to ride on the bike path that goes up to San Jose.
I road that path at about half the speed I was going to ride on the Road .
On Wednesday I decided to ride that road I was going to go up on Sunday however ...
For Safety , I road my Motorcycle .
Instead of cars passing close to me at 20 mph faster than on my bicycle, they go 50 + mph on those back country roads, I now with the Motorcycle was as fast as the cars, in the middle of the lane, no one passing me this time and , some of the cars even pulled over to let me pass them without crossing over into the other lane.
I do have all the Motorcycle Safety gear that I wear when riding the MC, and will be using down hill bicycle safety gear when I finally get a faster e-bike.
Having crashed a Car when I was just 16 years old ,
a Motorcycle lowside crash when I was in my mid 20's ,
I was once rear ended by a drunk driver that was going 60+ mph when he hit me in my car, ( Those East Texas Good Old Boys like to drink and drive )
Plus was in an Ultralight Crash that someone else was piloting,
Plus an emergency landing when my ultralight trike ( two stroke engine powered hang glider ) ran out of gas just 1/2 mile from the landing field,
Plus a couple of Hang Glider Crashes ( not perfect landings ) ,
Plus a Paraglider Crash ( early Pagaglider design that collapsed when I was less than 20 feet over the cliff face ) ,
and numerous bicycle crashes ...
I never kid myself about safety.
wturber said:
MadRhino
100 GW
donn said:
A rider need to accept the risk of riding, that is if he wants to become a good rider. We are conscious by experience, but defiant by nature.
wturber
1 MW
donn said:
The big difference was in trips. The analysis I found that translated to distance traveled reduce the gap substantially. But I don't think either measure is apt. I think for overall safety, the best comparison would be by time of travel such as per the number of hours of riding.
Distance would be obviously be good if you were simply comparing the risks for a given commute - for instance going to work. But hours of exposure would work equally as well.
wturber
1 MW
donn said:
Right. This is actually much harder than most of us realize.
wturber
1 MW
MadRhino said:
The simple reality is that a rider accepts the risk of riding every time he rides. The real question is whether or not the rider is being honest in his evaluation of those risks. That is, whether he really understands the risks he's accepted.
John in CR
100 TW
This thread might as well be a debate about helmets, with one side being unwilling or incapable of a complete risk assessment that doesn't fit their preconceived notions. Conditions dictate what speed is or isn't safe.
wturber said:
Whether it's commuting, or just going somewhere with no particular object in mind, the way I think of safety, it's about getting there in one piece. However long it takes.
One of the complications here is that on a longer distance trip, a motorcycle may be able to take advantage of a limited access freeway, which removes a whole category of common accidents related to intersections. That's a legitimate safety advantage, if the question is just which way would be safest to go there, but it's a confounding factor in the analysis I think we were considering here - whether it's safer to travel at dangerously high speeds for the benefit of moving with the traffic, or let the motor vehicle traffic pass and ride at a speed where collisions aren't as likely to be fatal. (Not that it's really a very pressing question, if the only electric bicycles that are ever going to be able to match speeds with motor vehicles are totally illegal garage builds.)
benjamin84
100 W
- Joined
- May 20, 2010
- Messages
- 177
I think you need to separate the accident statistics between city driving and highway / mountain roads. I ride in a city all summer on my GS, and I can't imagine how horrible it would be to not be able to keep up with traffic, or in some cases be able to accelerate out of situations.
That said, motorcycles get into some horrible accidents on faster roads if the rider isn't careful, or if the traffic around the rider does something stupid. In those situations lower speed would always be better. I can't remember the last time I read about a motorcyclist being killed in slower moving traffic though, yet every single fatal cycling accident I have read about here has been in city traffic (usually involving a bus, lorry or tram not seeing the cyclist on their right hand side).
Give me the choice I will choose power any time in city traffic. You can filter through on the left hand side of cars, or between lanes, where drivers can easily see you, and if the traffic loosens up you can just gas on out of there and keep up with everyone else. A regular cyclist or e-biker will be passed by all the cars he has just ridden by causing lots of potential for an accident.
That said, motorcycles get into some horrible accidents on faster roads if the rider isn't careful, or if the traffic around the rider does something stupid. In those situations lower speed would always be better. I can't remember the last time I read about a motorcyclist being killed in slower moving traffic though, yet every single fatal cycling accident I have read about here has been in city traffic (usually involving a bus, lorry or tram not seeing the cyclist on their right hand side).
Give me the choice I will choose power any time in city traffic. You can filter through on the left hand side of cars, or between lanes, where drivers can easily see you, and if the traffic loosens up you can just gas on out of there and keep up with everyone else. A regular cyclist or e-biker will be passed by all the cars he has just ridden by causing lots of potential for an accident.
MadRhino
100 GW
John in CR said:
This debate is about fear. People want to believe they will be safe and live forever. That is what regulations are all about. That is what religions are all about. If the law was really about justice, it is the threat to others that would be regulated.
No rules will save them from themselves. Reality is, the coward and the brave are bound to suffer and die as well. Only, the coward does accept to have his feet glued like roots of a plant, or to live in a four wheel cage like a circus monkey, for the illusion of safety.
Nature has a wicked way of keeping alive those who are defying death everyday, and to reserve the slowest death for those who fear it the most.
wturber
1 MW
donn said:
Sure. But then lower speed ebikes that qualify as bicycles can take advantage of separated bike paths and bike lanes not available to motorcyclists. Then there the previously mentioned tendency for lower speed ebikers to take lower speed and less traveled residential and non-residential streets. All of these things are probably well captured in the general/average statistics. But yes, on a case-by-case basis it would be important to look at all of these kinds of options when trying to compare/evaluate any particular trip.
