Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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davideserin   1 W

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Oct 17 2018 3:29am

Hey everyone, I'm hoping someone might have some experience with the Phaserunner and smaller motors like the Bafang SWXH (aka G02 i think) and the Xinogda YTW06. I've modified one of each with a temp sensor and ATF oil bath and I want to experiment with how far i can take them. I'm running a 21S3P Sanyo GA pack charged to 86v, so within the 90v max of the controller. I'm also using a Cycle Analyst, but I've put the throttle to bypass, so it's not limiting anything for now while i try to get the motor running smoothly.

I'm starting with the SWXH while i build the YTW06 into a wheel and the issues i'm having are stalling from a standstill and juddering at all speeds. I've read up on this forum and read the unofficial manual, but I can't seem to find a sweet spot with the settings. The most success i have is with the torque ramping, but the advice in the Phaserunner app is to set this as low as possible and let the Cycle Analyst look after the ramping, but then i get into power oscillations.

I've adjust the PLL Bandwidth between 0.5 and 15, the Current Regulator Bandwidth between 0 and 5000 and it doesn't quite do the job. I tried manually adjusting the Ki and Kp settings too, but no real luck.

The motor spins perfectly in the Autotune. And i've used this Phaserunner successfully with a Direct Drive Motor and a Bafang CST with perfect results.

I've been able to get an improved acceleration by increasing the torque ramp, but this makes it a bit sluggish and what i find is the motor won't start every time. I'll pull the throttle and it makes an electrical noise, but doesn't engaged the motor sporadically. I'm not getting any overcurrent warning of any sort with the stalling or juddering.

I was also unsure of the pole count, but think it's correct. The instructions say to multiply the magnets by the ratio. I counted the magnets and it has 20 and the gear ratio is 1:5. I multiplied by 5, but think this is wrong. In the manual the CST is listed as 40 and it has 16 magnets inside, so it seems that 1:5 is x2.5. I did this for the SWXH and have used 50 as the pole count.

My goal is to use the Cycle Analyst V3 with the Phaserunner and let the CA3 manage all of the ramping, etc. I've made some assumptions that i'm not sure should be true.

1. With the DD motor, if i twist the throttle, i have uninterrupted torque from a standstill, but with the SWXH, it feels like it needs a rolling start before it will engage. It keeps stalling and giving up. Is it correct to assume, that i should expect the same experience with a geared motor in terms of starting from a standstill, or is this stalling inherent, even if only at a very small level.

It would be amazing if anyone has any XML files that they have used with success, for both the CA3 and Phaserunner!

Oh and the final quirk i'd like to solve, even though it doesn't seem to be causing any issue is the blinking light for VdcHighFLDBK. I've read that it could be two values set the same, but i looked through 500 settings on the Dev screen and couldn't find the right ones to change, any suggestions?

Also.. sorry for so many questions, but I loaded up some old settings from a a couple of years for the Phaserunner and SWXH (i was using it at 60v and less power then), and i got errors importing the XML. I tested repeatedly with lots of different setting files, but needed to initialise values with Level 3 setting to get it to behave again after. Interestingly, the Phaserunner no longer had the VdcHighFLDBK fault, but instead the cold battery with the old XML file, so clearly there's a setting being changed that resolves this blinking. When i put back the initial value XML that i got from the Grin website recently, i get the VdcHighFLDBK fault again.

I've spent nearly 10 hours working on just these settings and keep starting from a default initial values and reset devices, then try changing one thing at a time carefully, so i'm a bit lost. Too many variables for me! Hope someone can help!

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Marc S. » Oct 17 2018 3:53pm

The Bafang SWXH has a gear ratio of 1:4.3
The Bafang BPM and CST have a 1:5 gear ratio.

davideserin   1 W

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Oct 18 2018 4:44pm

Marc S. wrote:
Oct 17 2018 3:53pm
The Bafang SWXH has a gear ratio of 1:4.3
The Bafang BPM and CST have a 1:5 gear ratio.
Thanks, i've found it now: https://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/ ... 0250d.html

Front version on Grin: http://www.ebikes.ca/mg01-fst.html#

It says 1:4.2 and 44 poles. I'll try that, thanks for your help.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Oct 18 2018 5:01pm

I've solved my voltage error by copying the XML from another Phaserunner 1. The problem can be re-introduced by uploading the Default Parameter File from here: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phase ... meter-file

I'm getting this on the Phaserunner 2.

Are parameter files interchangeable between versions of the software and hardware?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by arthurtuxedo » Oct 18 2018 11:40pm

Just a quick review of the Phaserunner: I had mine up and running quickly with my eZee 250 rpm with blown hall sensors. It configured a lot more quickly than I expected, and the 36V battery now tops out at about 26 MPH with up to 9 amps field weakening, which is a bit higher than I was expecting as the previous was only 19 MPH. The previous Infineon sensorless controller's terrible stuttering and cutting out at low speeds has been solved, and the increases in acceleration and speed are enormous. I can tell that it would be a little quicker and smoother off the line if the halls still worked, but the sensorless mode is quite good and might improve by tweaking the settings. These controllers may not be cheap, but they are worth every penny!

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Oct 19 2018 1:16am

arthurtuxedo wrote:
Oct 18 2018 11:40pm
Just a quick review of the Phaserunner: I had mine up and running quickly with my eZee 250 rpm with blown hall sensors. It configured a lot more quickly than I expected, and the 36V battery now tops out at about 26 MPH with up to 9 amps field weakening, which is a bit higher than I was expecting as the previous was only 19 MPH. The previous Infineon sensorless controller's terrible stuttering and cutting out at low speeds has been solved, and the increases in acceleration and speed are enormous. I can tell that it would be a little quicker and smoother off the line if the halls still worked, but the sensorless mode is quite good and might improve by tweaking the settings. These controllers may not be cheap, but they are worth every penny!
It must be my settings, but I switched from an infineon to the pr and my acceleration has dropped a ton! Also I'm running a battery capable of pushing 60A cont., And no matey weekday I set the CA to, I can only reach 35A. It definitely is smoother and quieter though and I can reach a higher speed, bit I'm really stumped as to why my acceleration and amp draw are so low. I've tried to run the throttle directly to the PR and I get no noticeable increase in acceleration so I'm thinking it's the PR settings, not the CA settings. Any idea what I need to do?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Oct 19 2018 1:25pm

My error message came back, it had only gone because the battery voltage went below 84v. The error message is a result of the battery voltage being higher than the Regen voltage start/end range, regardless of whether you're using it or not.

Warnings[8]: VdcHighFLDBK

I also resolved my issue with the G01 (SWXH)) motor. I had mistaken it for another model on Bafang's spec sheets. So with the correct pole count of 44, it tests fine.

It worked fine with the basic settings. I've set it to 40 phase amps and 15 battery amps.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by district9prawn » Oct 22 2018 1:50am

davideserin wrote:
Oct 18 2018 5:01pm
I've solved my voltage error by copying the XML from another Phaserunner 1. The problem can be re-introduced by uploading the Default Parameter File from here: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phase ... meter-file

I'm getting this on the Phaserunner 2.

Are parameter files interchangeable between versions of the software and hardware?
I'm also having problems with an OG Phaserunner and the default parameter file on the website. Loading up the default file with level 3 access enabled, I get all sorts of faults which don't clear. Faults are instantaneous phase over current, another phase over current (forgot), as well as cold battery foldback like david. I ended up just doing a restore to a previous xml file.

Reason I wanted to restore defaults in the first place is that I'm having trouble setting up regen. I am using two throttles, one for drive and one for regen. I pulled apart the throttle connector to separate the green throttle wire and the blue brake 2 wire. When I mapped the throttle voltage the software read the 0.8-4.2v output as 0.25 - 1.0v with periodic blips to around 4.8-4.9v. Simply setting the throttle range to 0.25- 1.0v worked but I'd like to know whats going on. The throttle works fine according to multimeter and a different control. The brake wire mapped fine and I got smooth braking after setting "analog brake enable" to 1.

I forgot to save parameters to flash so this working config was gone after unplugging the battery to charge. When I tried to replicate the working config, the drive throttle worked but was basically WOT/off without modulation. The regen throttle also provided WOT/off
forward torque if the motor was spinning. Turning the regen lever while the motor is stationary does not result in any power to the motor. In Bacdoor, I can see the torque set point increasing and positive while turning the throttle and increasing negative while turning the regen lever. So i have no idea why it is going accelerating rather than braking.

Since something seems wrong with the throttle input, is it possible to short the regen and throttle signals and wire them to the brake 2 (blue) wire? Similar to how the PR is wired from grin but connected to brake instead of throttle.Then set the "throttle source" parameter to brake 2 instead of throttle.
Neu 8057 6kW left hand drive hardtail with 18 fet Vesc: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96754

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by district9prawn » Oct 22 2018 3:08am

Oh crap I figured it out I've been barking up the wrong tree. Went over the settings carefully and control mode was set to speed, not torque. Not exactly sure why brake becomes throttle in speed mode but that and the weird throttle values threw me. :?: I'll admit that took me way longer to figure out than it should have :oops: .

Could the ADC gain for the throttle input have become messed up? The lower and upper voltages are about 4x less than the actual throttle voltages.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » Oct 27 2018 12:53pm

Stopped working after rain happened.

I thought it was something with my wiring and made sure the throttle and regen wire didnt touch each other. I also noticed by twigling the wire the on / off switch were cut so I resoldered it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qlb4a989l7fxs ... 2.jpg?dl=0

Then now, when I use the throttle it says something like overvoltage:
https://youtu.be/_KB5tZFy0Nc

I changed all my throttle to check if it was a problem with the throttle but I had the same problem.

When I twist the throttle gently enough to avoid the error message, the motor still doesn't spin but no error are indicated!!

Any idea what's wrong?

Thanks
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by 1N4001 » Nov 22 2018 12:13pm

Hey Justin & gang

I've received my very own Phaserunner and have been using it with a motor on a test stand. So far I am loving this little thing, and the companion software is also very nice and well made!

Here are some comments, hints, bugs and questions.

- The Linux archive for the software wouldn't extract at first. It seems it's not a proper tar.gz archive, but you can manually un-gz and then un-tar. The same issue appears in the Satiator Linux archive.

- When started, the Linux version of the software had huge fonts inside normal sized boxes on my system, which made it somewhat unusable. It's probably due to my high monitor DPI, and I don't know if this would happen on other systems aswell. Starting it like this solves this problem

Code: Select all

QT_FONT_DPI=96 ./PhaseRunnerSuite
- The Vehicle Maximum Speed setting seems to break for very high values. I've set it to 250kph for testing, and the motor would spin very slowly. Possible variable overflow, wraparound or somesuch?

- It would be really, really cool if there were tooltips for the various warnings and fault conditions aswell!

- It would also be very cool to show the default values for each tooltip, so I can return to sane values after playing around with each setting.

- Does the Phaserunner have inrush current protection / anti-spark when plugging in the battery?

- For the number of pole pair setting on a geared motor, do I multiply the number of pole pairs by the reduction ratio? e.g. for a G310, do I use 8 or 88?

- Same question for the Kv value. Does it need the Kv in relation to the internal rotor rpm or the wheel rpm?

- What role does the Kv value play in the controller? I can't seem to notice any difference when playing with it.

- I think adding a box for hall offset to motor settings would be sensible. Yes, it's detected by autotune, but a box would make it obvious that this is a setting that exists, and is essential for motor operation with halls.

- Speed Regulator Mode also seems like an useful setting that could be added to the advanced setup page.

Thank you!
Last edited by 1N4001 on Nov 23 2018 7:58am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Jason3 » Nov 22 2018 4:00pm

Hello all,

Speed regulator mode has not worked well for me on any ASI based controllers going back at least a couple of years. It has been suggested that if speed mode is required, there are other controllers that may be better suited. If so, hopefully ASI can address this via firmware update.

Regards,

Jason

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Nov 23 2018 5:50pm

i have a cav3.12 and a phaserunner v2.
i am trying to get the regen to work.
I have both the throttle and ebrake sensor "reed switch" connected directly to the CA.
The throttle works great....
The regen, not so much.

on the CA, I have the throttle out set to 0.50-0.00v and the throttle in says 0.86v and the throttle out is set to 1.00-3.95v.
When i hit the ebrake the CA shows about -80w, but there is absolutely no braking happening.
Screenshot from 2018-11-23 23-52-52.png
Screenshot from 2018-11-23 23-53-32.png
what am i doing wrong here?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Nov 23 2018 6:06pm

What is your max Regen Battery set to? And is the batter fully charged? The regen works once the battery voltage drops a bit from full in my experience.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Nov 23 2018 7:23pm

davideserin wrote:
Nov 23 2018 6:06pm
What is your max Regen Battery set to? And is the batter fully charged? The regen works once the battery voltage drops a bit from full in my experience.
Oops, didn't realise that pop-up was there, but it's set at 6v (I think). I actually just reloaded the default settings, did an auto tune and now things seem to be working, but it's 1:30 in the morning so I won't be able to take it out until tomorrow to test it fully. The battery isn't fully charged

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Nov 24 2018 9:44am

Dumsterdave wrote:
Nov 23 2018 7:23pm
davideserin wrote:
Nov 23 2018 6:06pm
What is your max Regen Battery set to? And is the batter fully charged? The regen works once the battery voltage drops a bit from full in my experience.
Oops, didn't realise that pop-up was there, but it's set at 6v (I think). I actually just reloaded the default settings, did an auto tune and now things seem to be working, but it's 1:30 in the morning so I won't be able to take it out until tomorrow to test it fully. The battery isn't fully charged
It's working, but very weak. I can barely tell that there is any regen braking. I've lowered the brake out in the CA to 0.05v and it's not really doing much

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Killer-B » Nov 25 2018 9:15pm

I lowered mine .0 and do the regen thru holding brakes and twisting throttle for proportional , works great,
everyday commuter is a khs alite 500 with Grin thru axle front hub, phaserunner, battery is 20s5p x2
trail bike is a Norco with qs 205 5t with 120 amp Kelly controller 20s5p
first build rear 1000w Giant with grin 40 amp and 14s8s
newest is custom frame qs205 5t in moto rim and shiko d/p with Kelly 120amp and 20p5s +20s5p

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Nov 26 2018 5:26am

Killer-B wrote:
Nov 25 2018 9:15pm
I lowered mine .0 and do the regen thru holding brakes and twisting throttle for proportional , works great,
What is your max regen phase current set? And what does max regen batt current mean? I have a 14s9p battery with mj1 cells (3400 mAh). Mj1 are treated 1c max charge.... So what should I set it at?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Killer-B » Dec 09 2018 10:15pm

Dumsterdave wrote:
Nov 26 2018 5:26am
Killer-B wrote:
Nov 25 2018 9:15pm
I lowered mine .0 and do the regen thru holding brakes and twisting throttle for proportional , works great,
What is your max regen phase current set? And what does max regen batt current mean? I have a 14s9p battery with mj1 cells (3400 mAh). Mj1 are treated 1c max charge.... So what should I set it at?
I run my regen at 45 amps . I have a samsung 25r pack 20s5p . regen battery cuurrent should be set to your nominal battery voltage.mine is at 74
Yours you could try battery current at 59 and your regen at around 30.
everyday commuter is a khs alite 500 with Grin thru axle front hub, phaserunner, battery is 20s5p x2
trail bike is a Norco with qs 205 5t with 120 amp Kelly controller 20s5p
first build rear 1000w Giant with grin 40 amp and 14s8s
newest is custom frame qs205 5t in moto rim and shiko d/p with Kelly 120amp and 20p5s +20s5p

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Tats » Dec 10 2018 3:59am

Max regen on my old battery was 35A and it was great - but on my new one I had to reduce it to 12A because the BMS would cut in. Much less braking as a result. So make sure you have it is matched - for your battery it'll take 30A easy but your BMS may not.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Marc S. » Dec 19 2018 8:22am

Hi Justin,

I got a Phaserunner v1 and wonder, if I can use the blue Phaserunner brake wire to connect an in-line brake sensor (3-wire hall sensor brake sensor), to switch-off the motor.

I don't (and can't) use regen and just want to make sure the motor can't run with parking brake engaged*.

Are any special software settings required for this brake setup?

Cheers
Marc

*the Phaserunner will go into a Milan velomobile with CAv3 (throttle, PAS, DigiAUX, analogAUX).
One TripWire brake sensor of the front wheel brakes goes to the CA, the other triggers the brake light.
The rear wheel with a small geared Bafang SWXH, will have a parking brake with a third brake sensor.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Dec 20 2018 5:16pm

Not sure about my pr V2... First off, in running a measly 14s battery so I'm not expecting high speeds, but it is capable of 60A cont. So I was hoping for some torque, but I'm either completely off in my settings or my pr is faulty. I've tried to raise everything to the max, but according to my CA I'm only able to push 35-36A.

My other problem is my regen, it's terribly weak. It does work and it does slow me down, but I want some serious braking power.

I'm coming from an infineon clone that would pop up the front tyre with ease and would nearly lock the hub when regen was applied. I love the size and silence of this controller (phaseruner), but as of right now I don't see why I would continue using it.

Could anyone "guide" me through what I need to do to get thus thing running optimally?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Dec 27 2018 5:12pm

Dumsterdave wrote:
Dec 20 2018 5:16pm
Not sure about my pr V2... First off, in running a measly 14s battery so I'm not expecting high speeds, but it is capable of 60A cont. So I was hoping for some torque, but I'm either completely off in my settings or my pr is faulty. I've tried to raise everything to the max, but according to my CA I'm only able to push 35-36A.

My other problem is my regen, it's terribly weak. It does work and it does slow me down, but I want some serious braking power.

I'm coming from an infineon clone that would pop up the front tyre with ease and would nearly lock the hub when regen was applied. I love the size and silence of this controller (phaseruner), but as of right now I don't see why I would continue using it.

Could anyone "guide" me through what I need to do to get thus thing running optimally?
Anyone?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Tats » Jan 01 2019 12:45am

Having similar questions myself running PR1 and HS3540 + Statorade. I suspect my EM3EV 14s7P33G has the Smart BMS limited to 35A discharge, I know it's limited to 10A charge (that's why my regen braking isn't as strong as my old battery was).

I've been trying to get a bit more initial torque (the first 5-10 metres) and have been playing around a bit - I've attached my PR file and CA settings, let me know if you think there is something I can tweak to get a but more 'oomph' please?

Phaserunner
Max Power Limit 4000 Watts
Max Phase Current 96 Amps
MaxCurrent 43 Amps
Torque Up Ramp 50 ms

Max Field Weakening Current 5 Amps

Cycle analyst v3.13
Input Throttle Mode Pass-thru
Throttle Out Ramp Up Rate 45.00 V/sec
Fast Ramp Up Rate 30.00 V/sec
Fast Ramp Threshold 3.00A
Current Limit 42.00 A
Power Limit 2500 W

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by airgee » Jan 03 2019 4:44am

I have a similar setup (PR2 + HS3540 + 14S5P GA) on a Mundo long tail cargo bike (26" wheels).

I've found the "fast ramp up" CA thing basically useless. To get descent torque at startup I needed to use a very low 'Fast Ramp Threshold" on the CA (ex: 0.5A) but the switch from "fast" to "normal" ramp up curves wasn't really smooth. In the end, I simply disabled this algorithm by setting "Fast Thrsh" at 0A.

I've not modified the defaults (?) ramp up timings on the PR (Up=200ms, Down=50ms, Regen Engage=200ms, Regen Release=1ms).

Although I don't use a physical throttle (torque PAS only here), I get enough torque at startup with a CA "PAS rate" at 6V/sec.

Btw :
- as you said your BMS cuts off at 35A discharge, I would set the MaxCurrent on the PR at 35A and would configure the corresponding CA limit ("Current Limit") to a slightly lower value (like 34.5A) ;
- with a 10A BMS-limited max charge, I would set the PR "Max Regen Battery Current" at 10A or 9.5A.

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