New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

casainho said:
I can´t understand how a so powerful microcontroller 32 bits 72MHz with 256kb flash memory has a so poor interface, it just replicate LCD3 interface :-( -- seems this companies are just putting fast undeveloped products to market, in this case color LCDs just because seems popular to have a color LCD!!
Click to expand...

KT have 8 displays they sell cheap. Even in china engineers expect pay and need time to develop products fully. You yourself are moving on to something new...

casainho said:
If I had to choose, I would go with Bafang 850C because it has RTC. Also with double of memory, we would be able to implement advanced features for sure.
Click to expand...

For my use case (old guy with family) my preference is definetely not a (bleeding edge) expensive colour display. My choice would be:

a) Make motor work with standard, unmodified XH18. Motor can be configured by LCD3/pc-file/phone, then nothing else can be changed by standard XH18 - this is perfect for my family to use. This opens a much bigger userbase than any other option, and should only need a small additional code in motor.

I tried to get tsdz2 without XH18 from pswpower, but seems to be bundled. So XH18 is "free" - no cables, no farting about. (LCD3, cables, freight will cost about USD90 extra)

b) KT-LCD5 is preferable for use by my family over LCD3 as it is simpler, less confusing, less wires, smaller-less breakable. (note I am happy with just not seeing the things that are missing from LCD3 display)

c) reprogram XH18: already has correct cable. Small, clean, robust.

I will have one LCD3 so I can see/set everything, and set up bikes for the wife and kids. I would rather have lcd5 or XH18 on their bikes.

Also we have two bike already modified for XH18 - I would rather not change them.

Programmability on-the-fly for my family is a minus: my wife is certain to accidentally get into a menu and change the motor current or otherwise break it.

Kids are certain to set motor current to 125GA deliberately, and burn it out.

Extra display items of LCD3 are only a plus for me, they are just confusing for everyone else.
 
crun said:
casainho said:
I can´t understand how a so powerful microcontroller 32 bits 72MHz with 256kb flash memory has a so poor interface, it just replicate LCD3 interface :-( -- seems this companies are just putting fast undeveloped products to market, in this case color LCDs just because seems popular to have a color LCD!!
Click to expand...

KT have 8 displays they sell cheap. Even in china engineers expect pay and need time to develop products fully. You yourself are moving on to something new...

casainho said:
If I had to choose, I would go with Bafang 850C because it has RTC. Also with double of memory, we would be able to implement advanced features for sure.
Click to expand...

For my use case (old guy with family) my preference is definetely not a (bleeding edge) expensive colour display. My choice would be:

a) Make motor work with standard, unmodified XH18. Motor can be configured by LCD3/pc-file/phone, then nothing else can be changed by standard XH18 - this is perfect for my family to use. This opens a much bigger userbase than any other option, and should only need a small additional code in motor.

I tried to get tsdz2 without XH18 from pswpower, but seems to be bundled. So XH18 is "free" - no cables, no farting about. (LCD3, cables, freight will cost about USD90 extra)

b) KT-LCD5 is preferable for use by my family over LCD3 as it is simpler, less confusing, less wires, smaller-less breakable. (note I am happy with just not seeing the things that are missing from LCD3 display)

c) reprogram XH18: already has correct cable. Small, clean, robust.

I will have one LCD3 so I can see/set everything, and set up bikes for the wife and kids. I would rather have lcd5 or XH18 on their bikes.

Also we have two bike already modified for XH18 - I would rather not change them.

Programmability on-the-fly for my family is a minus: my wife is certain to accidentally get into a menu and change the motor current or otherwise break it.

Kids are certain to set motor current to 125GA deliberately, and burn it out.

Extra display items of LCD3 are only a plus for me, they are just confusing for everyone else.
Click to expand...
Good feeback. Thanks.
 
the main problem with android stuff is how to change assist levels?
i think the buttons of klcd near the grip are very important.

however we can use something like these instead?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Auto-Car-Lenkrad-Fernbedienung-Audio-Media-Musik-Bluetooth-Remote-Control-Button-/253464468584
https://guide.alibaba.com/shop/vodool-bt-m2-bluetooth-media-button-remote-music-controller-with-clip-on-type-handlebar-mount-for-iphone-7-6-6s-plus-5s-5c-lg-g5-g4_1007890059.html

some hacking
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/02/cheap-bluetooth-buttons-and-linux/

i would not use a lcd display but use the mobile phone as a lcd and app.
so we only need a esp32 or rasperry zero for bluetooth to the phone app/ bluetooth button and serial connection to the tdsz2

so this is also really easy to use for everybody.
programm and connect esp32 to tsdz2
esp32 is only acting as a bluetooth to serial "proxy"
in this way esp32 doesnt have to be updated often.
maybe we could use esp32 also to update firmware for tsdz2 with the phone app? ;)

add bluetooth button.
install app and pair.

so only 2 devices needed.
only small soldering job. easy for everybody.
very cheap. less than 20 euros.

what you think?
 
vscope said:
the main problem with android stuff is how to change assist levels?
i think the buttons of klcd near the grip are very important.

however we can use something like these instead?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Auto-Car-Lenkrad-Fernbedienung-Audio-Media-Musik-Bluetooth-Remote-Control-Button-/253464468584
https://guide.alibaba.com/shop/vodool-bt-m2-bluetooth-media-button-remote-music-controller-with-clip-on-type-handlebar-mount-for-iphone-7-6-6s-plus-5s-5c-lg-g5-g4_1007890059.html

some hacking
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/02/cheap-bluetooth-buttons-and-linux/

i would not use a lcd display but use the mobile phone as a lcd and app.
so we only need a esp32 or rasperry zero for bluetooth to the phone app/ bluetooth button and serial connection to the tdsz2

so this is also really easy to use for everybody.
programm and connect esp32 to tsdz2
esp32 is only acting as a bluetooth to serial "proxy"
in this way esp32 doesnt have to be updated often.
maybe we could use esp32 also to update firmware for tsdz2 with the phone app? ;)

add bluetooth button.
install app and pair.

so only 2 devices needed.
only small soldering job. easy for everybody.
very cheap. less than 20 euros.

what you think?
Click to expand...

For me the perfect, modern solution. I even have a phone NFC controlled lock on my bike. Phone sits on the handlebar next to the lcd3 now. It really feels like one Display too many. I understand casainho is not happy about getting dependent on the phone, but: there are soo many phones in our drawers in the meantime and also inexpensive new phones, so that if someone prefers a dedicated display, this can also be realized without problem...if I knew how to do it I would be doing a phone solution myself😁

Now: if someone could tell me what I need to do to get assist levels working. For me it feels like one level throughout, including level 0...where is my mistake? What is an example of settings that will work? Please help me..
 
crun said:
For my use case (old guy with family) my preference is definetely not a (bleeding edge) expensive colour display. My choice would be:

a) Make motor work with standard, unmodified XH18. Motor can be configured by LCD3/pc-file/phone, then nothing else can be changed by standard XH18 - this is perfect for my family to use.
Click to expand...
Case 1: I also have family and I pay their ebikes and they also do not value a big color LCD, so, I would prefer a cheap and simple solution for them.

Case 2: I am start to think that I would prefer to have an high tech display on my ebike only and with advanced capabilities like navigation and connection to my phone to show me alerts of phone calls and new messages/notifications. I know that some expensive electric motorcycles/scooters are coming to market with this functionality, where your phone is connected by Bluetooth and then you can see phone notifications and do google maps navigation on the scooter display. I think this is Android Auto!!

For Case 1, we should go with KT-LCD7. This one is cheap (26 euros), has Bluetooth, similar size to KT-LCD5 and has USB charger. Buy here.
Should be relatively fast to migrate to KT-LCD7 as it should use the same internal hardware as LCD3, it is just a smaller LCD that shows less information and with added UART Bluetooth module.
While we do not have Case 2 working, Case 1 should work well also for the ones that want to use Android Auto on phone or plain Android. They can connect the phone the the LCD charger and place the phone in the center of the bicycle handlebar. I see myself doing this when I need navigation (only 1 time every 2 months).

KT-LCD7:
HTB1-Qnp-Ok-Ma-TBu-Nj-Sszfq6xgfp-Xa-K.png


For Case 2, I think there are few options and I am not very experienced with Android (I am an user). As reference, here is a well documented project for Android Auto to be DIY on RPI3 and put on cars: http://getcrankshaft.com

[youtube]76v-a6LSfiw[/youtube]

[youtube]BgQ2KeJgJiY[/youtube]
 
casainho said:
For Case 1, we should go with KT-LCD7.
Click to expand...

I think that making motor work with standard, unmodified XH18 should be a priority. It is easiest, as no new discoveries or expenditure is needed by the developer (you), and it allows the greatest number of people to use your firmware with no electronic hardware work. Once you have done it , then it's done - no one can ask for extra features since its impossible to extend.

KT-LCD 7 looked good, but where I saw it sold, the wording implied that the bluetooth was a separate module plugged into the usb port. Which seemed ugly.

Should be relatively fast to migrate to KT-LCD7 as it should use the same internal hardware as LCD3, it is just a smaller LCD that shows less information and with added UART Bluetooth module.
Click to expand...
With any luck same as LCD5. Have you seen one in the flesh?

I just ordered LCD5 a few hours ago - maybe I should ask pswp if they have lcd7 yet, it wasn't on store
 
BTW there is another BT option possible, instead of making it part of the display.

AFAIK (and I don't know much about stm8, so might be wrong), STM8 have two uarts, and one can connect to SWIM.

You could mirror the comms out the motors SWIM, and plug a BT adaptor onto the speed sensor port which has SWIM and +5V available. Do they come out the Y connector, so BT could just plug into the Y?
 
You get a used mobile phone with touch and everything for the price of a bafang 850c...
You have GPS, Accelerometer, Bluetooth oboard ...
Screen ontime should be about 5 hours for a charge.

We just need to do an Android app thats all.
Thats not hard to do.
I can help here.
 
crun said:
I think that making motor work with standard, unmodified XH18 should be a priority. It is easiest, as no new discoveries or expenditure is needed by the developer (you), and it allows the greatest number of people to use your firmware with no electronic hardware work. Once you have done it , then it's done - no one can ask for extra features since its impossible to extend.
Click to expand...
That would bring no value to me and I do not oppose if someone do it. For my needs, I want access to the advanced features on all LCDs of my ebikes.

crun said:
KT-LCD 7 looked good, but where I saw it sold, the wording implied that the bluetooth was a separate module plugged into the usb port. Which seemed ugly.
Click to expand...
See here Kunteng product page, I really think it includes internally the Bluetooth module and I expect to be that simple and cheap ones used on Arduino world: http://www.szktdz.com/en/news_show.php?article_id=544

crun said:
With any luck same as LCD5. Have you seen one in the flesh?
Click to expand...
I hope to get one in about 10 days.

By the way, this is the board of LCD5, I hope LCD7 is near:
13-1.png


13-2.png


More info and ICs datasheets: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/development/Motor_controllers--BMSBattery_S_series--LCD_control_panel.html

crun said:
BTW there is another BT option possible, instead of making it part of the display.

AFAIK (and I don't know much about stm8, so might be wrong), STM8 have two uarts, and one can connect to SWIM.

You could mirror the comms out the motors SWIM, and plug a BT adaptor onto the speed sensor port which has SWIM and +5V available. Do they come out the Y connector, so BT could just plug into the Y?
Click to expand...
That would be great for the ones that do no want a display. Someone should investigate.

vscope said:
You get a used mobile phone with touch and everything for the price of a bafang 850c...
You have GPS, Accelerometer, Bluetooth oboard ...
Screen ontime should be about 5 hours for a charge.

We just need to do an Android app thats all.
Thats not hard to do.
I can help here.
Click to expand...
Maybe you you start by looking to available OpenSource apps for ebikes??
 
I think we should go in the direction like the Bafang Motors. With the shipped LCDs, the user can only alter some basic settings like wheel circumfence, speed-limit and so on. For extended settings, which are endless with the new firmware, should be altered by some sort of tool.
This could be an Android app via Bluetooth (and a BT-Dongle at the Motor-side), or a Laptop with an App. This settings should be stored in the Motor only. Nobody would like to alter every setting while riding the bike :)

For the interested user, the standard Tongsheng Protocol can(?) be extended with custom messages just like at the begining of casainhos work, to display extended infos (cadence, amperage, temperature, moon-phase and water-level :D ) but still be compatible to unmodified Displays.

I think that's the best way to get everyone satisfied using the display they like.
 
Been there, done it, got the T shirts, for using mobile phones as alternative devices. Outdoor GPs, car engine monitoring/diagnostics/trip monitor, bike display, action camera remote control etc. In theory they should replace the dedicated device but in practice they have all proved an unsatisfactory alternative. Jack of all trades master of none. Outdoors the biggest let down is poor screen performance in sunlight and I have used very expensive supposedly easy to read in sunlight screens, then there is the problem with water and of course touch screens are just about impossible to use on a moving bike. Can not beat a dedicated display and LCD3 is perfectly viewable in all lights as is the Bafang display plus their remote controls are easy to use when the bike is in motion.


The deeper sub Menus on LCD3 could always I assume be locked by a PIN just as they are on the Bafang 850C if someone does not want others delving into them.
 
my engine start to behave very strange, sometimes, like every 10th second or so, the engine work for a second even if I do not put force on the pedals, I just coasting and it behave like I put force...

sometimes also when I park the bike and just move the wheel some centimeters it could start. scary when the bike is driving by itself....
any idea? should I change the cable and the magnet on the back wheel? everything looks fine when I am checking the cables.
 
So, finding some new hope after losing a bunch of money on ripoffs.
I decided was as good a day as any to bang out my bearing cups and
try to fit TSDZ2 on the Electra I had originally intended it for. The
hole through the cups was plenty bigger than 30mm, but the motor
won't clear the bottom edge unless purposely placed not on center.

Its not impossible to offset fit in a one piece American crank bracket,
but sure presents a few issues. First, there is a lot of empty space to
fill. Unless you want to buy one of those eccentric things that act as
chain tighteners on tandems. I'm just planning to pound in a pile of
chopsticks till the bracket feels like it can't move anywhere.

Second problem, you remember the pics of that one a guy broke?
Funky leverage cracked his housing and had to weld back together.
Well, there is a ring shape depression in the mating face that seems
intended to help center with a 30mm bracket. In my case, the top
half of my BB is above and outside this ring. Putting all sideways
clamping force at large offset, not evenly distributed. Looks about
sure to fatigue and fail if nothing is done about it.

So, I am looking for shim to fill the depression flush with the area
just outside the depression. I might just fill with JBWeld.

As for the Sturmey 5 speed I "bought" six months ago but never
received, no longer part of the plan. Going with a CSA 6speed
automatic derailleur. Just wondering if the sprag of CSA's rear
hub will have enough friction to overcome the sprag of the
TSDZ2 motor?

Theory here is that it could autoshift down while not pedaling,
cause the chain advances like Shimano FFS. But the original
CSA crank (which might be an FFS) freewheeled much more
easily than our motor. How does our sprag beak-in over time?
Does it ever loosen enough to readily freewheel when the
chain is driven from the rear? The derailer will have to pull
with very hard tension to move the chainring as it is now...
 
vscope said:
firmware version?
Click to expand...

Is that something I can check on the display?
The problems apeared whdn I removed thd backeheel to change innertube because of a flat.
 
matte2k said:
vscope said:
firmware version?
Click to expand...

Is that something I can check on the display?
The problems apeared whdn I removed thd backeheel to change innertube because of a flat.
Click to expand...

are you using the open source firmware at all? if so: the version can be checked in the software on the pc.

i can imagine that you moved the speed sensor when you removed the wheel. pls check that the speed sensor is very close (2 mm) to the magnet, if not the motor does not know what is going on and cannot react correctly.
 
Couple of points on the Bafang 850C display.

I have been using one for the past 9 months. For me the RTC randomly lost track of time. It felt like when the display was active it charged a small internal battery/cap and then would drain it when the display was switched off (but not disconnected from the main battery). As a data point I generally only used the 850C bike Thur-Sun and then it was left until the next Thur, but the main battery was always connected. Not sure what the issue was or if it was just mine.

In bright sunlight at particular angles the 850C display is hard to read. It just doesn't have the brightness / contrast to fight this in my opinion. I prefer the extremely high contrast of a LCD. Sure a $1000 phone can fight bright sunlight, but this cannot.

Cheers
Steve

casainho said:
Color LCD: Kunteng KT LCD8H VS Bafang 850C

If I had to choose, I would go with Bafang 850C because it has RTC. Also with double of memory, we would be able to implement advanced features for sure.

More pictures and info:
- Bafang 850C: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/Color_LCD/wiki/Bafang-850C
- Kunteng KT-LCD8H: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/Color_LCD/wiki/Kunteng-KT-LCD8H
Click to expand...
 
mctubster said:
I have been using one for the past 9 months. For me the RTC randomly lost track of time. It felt like when the display was active it charged a small internal battery/cap and then would drain it when the display was switched off (but not disconnected from the main battery). As a data point I generally only used the 850C bike Thur-Sun and then it was left until the next Thur, but the main battery was always connected. Not sure what the issue was or if it was just mine.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing.

This LCD has a coin cell/battery as we can see on the main board (B1). I think while that battery is ok (some years, I guess), the system should not lose the time (can be a bug on firmware).

Bafang_850C_board-01.jpg
 
The 850C/DPC14 was improved some months ago and the clock actually remembers the time now. To charge the coin cell, the display needs to be on, battery switched on alone is not enough, Afaik It is not made by Bafang while the new DPC 18 is. I have the DPC 18 and have had both ( I believe there are more than two) variants of the DPC14/850c and my favourite is the later DPC 14 /850c. The viewing angles are good and the remote buttons much improved.
 
mctubster said:
Couple of points on the Bafang 850C display.

I have been using one for the past 9 months. For me the RTC randomly lost track of time. It felt like when the display was active it charged a small internal battery/cap and then would drain it when the display was switched off (but not disconnected from the main battery). As a data point I generally only used the 850C bike Thur-Sun and then it was left until the next Thur, but the main battery was always connected. Not sure what the issue was or if it was just mine.

In bright sunlight at particular angles the 850C display is hard to read. It just doesn't have the brightness / contrast to fight this in my opinion. I prefer the extremely high contrast of a LCD. Sure a $1000 phone can fight bright sunlight, but this cannot.

Cheers
Steve

casainho said:
Color LCD: Kunteng KT LCD8H VS Bafang 850C

If I had to choose, I would go with Bafang 850C because it has RTC. Also with double of memory, we would be able to implement advanced features for sure.
Click to expand...

Can 850C be turned different positions like VLCD5? It is convenient and can prevent glare. What about KT-LCD3? It has not arrived for me yet.

If the casainho develops a new color display, I give my vote for that. As long as it is not too expensive. I think the phone can be used separately for example to view the map.
Click to expand...
 
mctubster said:
Couple of points on the Bafang 850C display.

I have been using one for the past 9 months. For me the RTC randomly lost track of time. It felt like when the display was active it charged a small internal battery/cap and then would drain it when the display was switched off (but not disconnected from the main battery).
Click to expand...
[/quote]

I had the same issue with the time. I left the LCD on for about 24hrs and now no problem at all since August
 
Rafe said:
The 850C/DPC14 was improved some months ago and the clock actually remembers the time now. To charge the coin cell, the display needs to be on, battery switched on alone is not enough, Afaik It is not made by Bafang while the new DPC 18 is. I have the DPC 18 and have had both ( I believe there are more than two) variants of the DPC14/850c and my favourite is the later DPC 14 /850c. The viewing angles are good and the remote buttons much improved.
Click to expand...

Are you aware of anyway to tell the difference (externally) between the two 850c revisions?

Thanks for the confirmation re "charging" the display for the RTC. I remember I left the display on for a number of hours, but likely not 24 hours. I would say 6 hours at least charging and then the bike was generally used for 5-6 hours per week after that, but that did not appear to be enough charge to keep the RTC up to date ... unless there is another separate issue.

Cheers
 
Sorry I've deleted the photos of the old DPC14/850c I had, the numbers stamped on the rear are different, it may only be firmware changes of course. Whilst I was in between the two DPC14/850C displays I purchased a DPC 18 and that was a step backwards, the one Luna sells with their own firmware seems to be dedicated to the BBS*** but the ones on general sale cover a range of systems and some functions are not used on the BBS especially eco and they only have 5 levels of PAS.
 
Rydon said:
Picnic said:
The coaster brake version is different controller firmware and is also mechanically different. There is 0 motor lag after you stop pedaling and it does not freewheel at the cranks.
Click to expand...
So why is not everybody using this motor? Zero motor lag is no problem, and one freewheel less positive because less defects. Does @Casainho's software have any problems with the coaster brake version of that motor?
Click to expand...
 
1 week of reading and 150 pages later, here I am. First and foremost, a huge shoutout to Casainho (and co) for creating and maintaining the open source project. And a huge thanks to everyone else who has posted on this thread filling it up with (mostly useful) knowledge.

I have finally ordered my TSDZ2 Motor kit and my battery and LCD3 to convert my Trek Hybrid 7.2 FX. Things will start arriving in 2 weeks-ish. I am going to use that time to get ready to flash the fw and maybe create a workbench with some electronics equipment in the garage. I'll try my best to document every part of the process and maybe create a "Step-by-step Guide" or something along those lines to share with you wonderful people. Once everything is up and running, I am hoping to contribute to the open source project too!

For anyone who is interested, I ordered the 48V motor kit from recycles-ebike.com (big thanks to David for answering my questions very promptly). I ordered a 14Ah battery and the LCD3 from aliexpress.

I'm excited to join this community and share my progress with everyone!
 
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