Rieju 50cc conversion

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larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 17 2018 11:44pm

It's not bms undervolt protection fault, cutouts are just a momentary shutdown and controller works again as soon as i am at standstill.

Battery is at 84V charge, sagging down to 75 during acceleration and my bms undervolt is at 60V.

The BMS overcurrent limit is 60A for both the old battery packs, the new is unprotected. I don't think i am even close to the 200A battery current that would cause a BMS high current trip since cutouts are at low to mid speed where the battery current is not so high..

My best guess is current spikes or that the controller just struggles. I think i'll build the capacitor bank, can't hurt :D
Last edited by larsb on Oct 18 2018 2:26pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by fechter » Oct 18 2018 8:15am

If the problem is from voltage transients, then additional main capacitors can't hurt. I have seen transients pass through the voltage regulator and hit the 5v supply for the processor. Adding capacitance to the 5v supply might help there too.

You can also possibly get noise into the hall sensor lines. Separating the hall sensor lines from the phase wires might help there. Tiny caps across the hall sensor power lines, located next the sensor might help too.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 19 2018 1:56pm

I've soon got a 1000km on the new motor :D
It's quick when you do more than 50km per day.

Motor has enough torque to outperform the rewound revolt 120 pro in acceleration and that's at gearing with 40% higher top speed!

i have yet to get it more than hand varm from driving so i think it could take even higher phase currents than i can supply it. The Votol controller is speced to give 470A phase so a powerful controller is needed to find the limits of this motor!
I highly recommend it :D

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Oct 22 2018 6:45am

larsb wrote:
Oct 19 2018 1:56pm
Motor has enough torque to outperform the rewound revolt 120 pro in acceleration and that's at gearing with 40% higher top speed!
Ok, It is time for me to make some motor upgrade to my e-trial :bigthumb:

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 22 2018 11:29am

You'll like it! It's miles away from the crappy revolt motor.

I think you'll need a new controller also, since kV is at 75 you'll want something capable of 500A phase to get things moving. With your gearbox the actual downgearing won't be an issue i guess.

The QS3000W and EM150S is quite nice combination and really cheap for what you get - and you save on the shipping since both is from QS. I paid 379usd excluding shipping but it was some summer sale :D

It is sadly a speed controller only, no torque control (but so is the kelly KLS). Starting pull with QS/EM150S is a lot better than with my previous kls7230.

How much current can your battery produce?

Tommm   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by Tommm » Oct 22 2018 7:53pm

larsb wrote:
Oct 13 2018 6:35am
Changed my mind, wanted to keep the available throttle band and since i had no issues for the high throttle i just added 470 Ohm to the low/ground side. That should raise the low voltage output to 0.4V
Result is a decent amount of dead band, really good throttle response and no controller faults :D :D
Did you connect +5, resistor, to signal out?

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 23 2018 12:08am

No, that's not it.
A potentiometer is a voltage divider and the wiper position decides how the voltage is split so resistor is placed on the ground and/or feed line. Effect is like putting the wiper in an offset position on start/end.

I still can get some cutouts on controller from throttle voltage when i brake hard. I guess that the resting position resistance is forced just low enough to trip my controller so a slightly larger resistor is needed (for my controller, not necessarily for others)
Last edited by larsb on Oct 29 2018 12:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Oct 23 2018 4:56am

larsb wrote:
Oct 22 2018 11:29am
You'll like it! It's miles away from the crappy revolt motor.

I think you'll need a new controller also, since kV is at 75 you'll want something capable of 500A phase to get things moving. With your gearbox the actual downgearing won't be an issue i guess.

The QS3000W and EM150S is quite nice combination and really cheap for what you get - and you save on the shipping since both is from QS. I paid 379usd excluding shipping but it was some summer sale :D

It is sadly a speed controller only, no torque control (but so is the kelly KLS). Starting pull with QS/EM150S is a lot better than with my previous kls7230.

How much current can your battery produce?
great Lars!
I destroyed my kls controller during test of revolt motor.... I'm starting to hate Kelly it seems to be made to be broken!
I'm going to put revolt on my fatbike, I hope it will able to keep at least 3kw!

My battery should able to get 300A. It is made of 2x battery packs in parallel with two 150A BMS. Each battery pack is 16s3p of 5ah lipo batteries.
I hope with this config battery sag will be acceptable.

If you recommend QS/EM150S combination, it will be!
ps. asi 8000 is out of budget :lol:

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 24 2018 9:35am

I decided to leave the kellys after my third controller broke. No good design/low quality.

I cannot judge the EM150s endurance yet, but a power controller/motor kit for that money can hardly be beat.

Just make sure that QS ships the programming cable, they did not do that for me and i had to pay extra and wait after much hassle.

damirsky   100 mW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by damirsky » Oct 26 2018 12:53pm

larsb wrote:
Oct 24 2018 9:35am
I decided to leave the kellys after my third controller broke. No good design/low quality.

I cannot judge the EM150s endurance yet, but a power controller/motor kit for that money can hardly be beat.

Just make sure that QS ships the programming cable, they did not do that for me and i had to pay extra and wait after much hassle.
so you mean your votol em150s is already broken?? sad to hear that..

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 26 2018 1:10pm

No, i am referring to the three Kelly KLS7230 that i have had break on me, average lifetime something like one year or 7000-10000km of riding..
One exploded the fets
One leaked water
One just stopped all output but looked OK inside

The Votol EM150S controller is going strong, currently at 1250km/780 miles :D

damirsky   100 mW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by damirsky » Oct 26 2018 9:29pm

larsb wrote:
Oct 26 2018 1:10pm
No, i am referring to the three Kelly KLS7230 that i have had break on me, average lifetime something like one year or 7000-10000km of riding..
One exploded the fets
One leaked water
One just stopped all output but looked OK inside

The Votol EM150S controller is going strong, currently at 1250km/780 miles :D
oh, sorry i've misunderstood you. i'm asking because i've already ordered qs3000 but with no controller. i planned to use it with adaptto max-e but now i start thinking i should purchase votol controller too...

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 27 2018 12:42am

Soon it's winter time here and i will know more about how the Votol controller and the belt drive holds up.

We put tons of salt on the roads when it's sub-zero temps so my daily commute is like a two hour salt spray test - performed every day the whole winter.

It's not the nicest kind of riding :wink:

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 27 2018 11:39am

Yup, it's here.. 8)
Time to start looking for studded tires.
image.jpeg
Snow ride
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bionicon   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by bionicon » Oct 27 2018 2:18pm

nice looking bike :thumb:

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 28 2018 1:35pm

I bought a chinese windows 10 tablet; "CHUWI 10 air" to be able to read the cutout errors. It was 144usd so i had quite low expectations but the build quality is really good.

And... It's frickin' hall errors again :evil:
I guess it's interference from the coils or cables affecting the halls at high current since it only happens when i smash the throttle. Damn it!

The Kelly KLS controllers i had before allows an enormous amount of missing signals, that was clear when i measured the factory hall sensors in my revolt motor but that came at a price of low efficiency.

Maybe the Votol controller error limits are more sensitive since the QS3000W motor works like a dream except for the cutouts at full acceleration

I tried setting the current at 250A in the program (that's 20kW of power..) and it works; roughly 250 amps are shown in the program at WOT. That basically means controller is unlocked. :D, I wonder what it can take before it explodes.
Last edited by larsb on Oct 30 2018 1:28pm, edited 2 times in total.

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 28 2018 2:56pm

:flame: Just ordered: RMC35 commutation encoder on the way. Screw all hall sensors!

Skärmavbild 2018-10-28 kl. 20.46.09.png
Last edited by larsb on Oct 28 2018 3:51pm, edited 1 time in total.

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eee291   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by eee291 » Oct 28 2018 3:03pm

Make sure to glue on the Magnet properly :D

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 29 2018 6:36am

I had some cutouts during riding today and had the programming screen connected. Turns out that what's called "Hall error" in the program is actually "Hall throttle error"!

I really wonder if this is correct.. Maybe my Domino throttle has seen it's lifetime with the three winters it's gone through. I got some throttle runaways going to work so the throttle behavior is definitely NOK and I guess I need to change the Domino.

what's good is that motor is still OK, motor halls are working as they should. I'll keep the RMC35 encoder as a spare for if I get later trouble with motor halls.

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by macribs » Oct 29 2018 7:26am

Aren't you curious to see if the encoder you got is working better then the halls? Probably better and more correct timing, which could impact even motor temperature and output.

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 29 2018 7:51am

Yes, I am curious :D
I will check if the mounting of the encoder is easy to solve.

Only thing that is a bit of a problem is that I don't have any heating issues to solve yet. I need a bigger battery to power the motor!
And a dyno to get away from the subjective guesswork 8)

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by madin88 » Oct 29 2018 8:30am

larsb wrote:
Oct 29 2018 6:36am
I had some cutouts during riding today and had the programming screen connected. Turns out that what's called "Hall error" in the program is actually "Hall throttle error"!
Are the sensor wires separated from the phase wires? If not this could be the reason for the cutouts.

Unlocked controller sounds great and so the price of this set, but i would never want to go back to speed based throttle.
Does it have variable regen?

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 29 2018 12:51pm

Good idea, I will replace the wire soldered to the domino cable and connect a new one closer to the throttle.

There just might be a short somewhere, think i took the extension from an old bmsbattery hall throttle i had since my first bike 8)

Not a quality cable in the first place, 4 years and 30000-40000kms of riding on it might have been too much..

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by madin88 » Oct 29 2018 3:04pm

Aha, "hall throttle error"
Is the voltage range similar to hall based throttle?
Or it is a similar problem as it is with Adaptto controllers where the so called "resistor mod" was necessary when using 5k throttle. The problem there was the low current consumption compared to a hall based throttle and they recommended to solder a resistor between TH ground and TH +5V. It just drains additional current, nothing else.

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Oct 29 2018 4:07pm

I don't see a clear logic with the cutouts, i think i have several problems going on.

The throttle errors today is most likely a shorting issue since i had throttle errors and runaways.

The problems i had before with the throttle disappeared when i installed a resistor on ground side, probably was low throttle voltage errors.

But the very first cutouts were only intermittent at full throttle drag race style.. they could be overcurrent or spikes or disturbed hall signals, don't know yet.
Last edited by larsb on Oct 30 2018 1:29pm, edited 1 time in total.

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