Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
User avatar
3DTOPO   100 W

100 W
Posts: 211
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 02 2018 6:56pm

pipeking wrote:
Nov 02 2018 6:41pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 31 2018 7:32pm
fechter wrote:
Oct 31 2018 9:22am
The physics is pretty straightforward. Slower speed or bigger battery are your two main options.
Personally, I am pretty content with the range, but I think it would be awesome if someone developed auxiliary side packs. Two 10 pound packs (one on each side) could give the bike 50% more range and I don't think it would dramatically change the bike's handling if mounted on each side of the pack.

I'm not sure if I would be crazy about having a giant lithium battery on my person though. If the pack malfunctioned or was pierced from impact, you would be in a world of sh*t!
This was what I was thinking too, or even a pack that you could carry easy enough in a backpack. Like 5kgs (10pounds) I'm not sure if I'm clever enough to try to build a battery from scratch, but what I wanted to know was, does the BMS part matter? Can you unplug the main battery feed and plug another battery onto it just like that? Or is it more complicated?
I'm not sure. But the pack itself would have to have a BMS. Not sure if it would work, but I was thinking if the pack was the right voltage, it seems like it could just plug into the charging port of the built-in pack. I mean all the charger is essentially doing is providing DC electrons to the pack at the right voltage. Not as ideal as directly powering from the auxiliary pack, but seems like it would be the simplest implementation.
pipeking wrote:
Nov 02 2018 6:41pm
Yes I think so too, I want to try the new controller out and see if that makes a difference. I'm not sure how long I'm going to have to wait though, it sounds like they are in short supply.
If you find yourself riding the breaks a lot, then it will definitely make a noticeable improvement to the range, your pads will last much longer, less likely to overheat the pads, and you will have much better braking power when needed.

Looks like @Aebrennan aebikes have them in stock and ship internationally:
https://www.aebikes.com.au/spare-parts.html

User avatar
Offroader   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sep 08 2013 9:03pm
Location: USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 02 2018 10:56pm

Of course anything could be done to extend range but because of complexity you are pretty much going to have to stick with a single pack. Connecting multiple packs adds too much complexity. What happens if the voltages are not all the same? You could use multiple packs but you would have to fabricate everything yourself and then deal with making sure all the cell voltages are equalized before connecting the packs in parallel.


A single pack may be modified to possibly fit a lot more cells than the stock pack. We need someone to see how many 18650 cells they can cram into the pack without spacers, then we can determine how much the range can be increased.

User avatar
Offroader   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sep 08 2013 9:03pm
Location: USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 02 2018 10:59pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 02 2018 5:01pm


Do you have a log to see how much energy is actually being delivered to the motor?

Just because its an 8kw motor doesn't mean its drawing 8kw. At 8kw you would have a runtime of 22.5 minutes with a 3kw/h battery. That means to cover 50-miles at 8kw, you would have to do 133MPH! Simple math - that does add up.

Since people are getting a 25-mile range on the Sur-Ron, then with a 3kw/h battery it could do close to 40 miles as well. :roll:

My peak is 8KW, of course I'm not at the peak the whole time. But you are also not using peak power with the Sur-Ron all the time.

Unless that 25 mile Sur-Ron range was full throttle while on the highway? I may have missed his driving conditions to get the 25 miles.

If he is getting 25 miles with full throttle all the time, then that is pretty damn good. Then it comes down to the field weakening, because without field weakening my bike would peak around 2500 watts at full throttle when I hit top speed. With field weakening my bike hits 8KW at full throttle and at top speed.

User avatar
3DTOPO   100 W

100 W
Posts: 211
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 02 2018 11:09pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 02 2018 10:59pm
My peak is 8KW, of course I'm not at the peak the whole time. But you are also not using peak power with the Sur-Ron all the time.

Unless that 25 mile Sur-Ron range was full throttle while on the highway? I may have missed his driving conditions to get the 25 miles.
The general consensus seems to be that it achieves around a 25-mile range regardless of going fast or taking it easy (ignoring EP mode).

If I ride it hard here in the mountains, I will get considerably less than 25 miles. I think most people don't ride on nearly as steep stuff as what I have out my back door. I would say my range is between 18-26 miles in sports mode depending on how hard I ride it.

Just get an X Controller for field weakening which is what I run.

User avatar
macribs   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3481
Joined: Jul 22 2014 5:59pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 03 2018 7:27am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 02 2018 5:01pm

I bet Sur Ron's larger power systems are beasts! Their biggest is 14kw continuous and 28kw peak:

https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e ... companies/

If you were able to push 28kw through the small one, I can even imagine what the big one could do hot-rodded! :twisted:
I like the way you are thinking. Had my eyes on the dual motor for a while but I can't get any info from surron. :? :(
That dual motor I have tried for while now to gather information about, but Sur Ron seems to have gone to "radio-silence-mode". They never return emails anymore and I must have tried to contact them 4-5 times now for price quotes, availability and MOQ. No replies.

Anyone knows the price of that motor and if it is possible to order one or two motors only? That motor also comes in in a version with a dual controller combo, is that a dual x-controller or something more radical then the x-controller? The peak performance suggest more radical, but I don't know because Sur Ron keep ignoring my emails.

Are any of the Sur Ron dealers able to order those motors? Maybe if you guys selling Sur Ron's check with your Sur Ron contacts for prices, controller data etc it would actually be addressed rather then ignored?

User avatar
macribs   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3481
Joined: Jul 22 2014 5:59pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 03 2018 7:35am

Offroader wrote:
Nov 02 2018 10:56pm
Of course anything could be done to extend range but because of complexity you are pretty much going to have to stick with a single pack. Connecting multiple packs adds too much complexity. What happens if the voltages are not all the same? You could use multiple packs but you would have to fabricate everything yourself and then deal with making sure all the cell voltages are equalized before connecting the packs in parallel.


A single pack may be modified to possibly fit a lot more cells than the stock pack. We need someone to see how many 18650 cells they can cram into the pack without spacers, then we can determine how much the range can be increased.
Dual pack was done on the 50 kw electric supermotor build by an ES member, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyHj3yViHGY.
He replaced the front radiators with dual packs and it worked well for him. I am no EE but I think if you match the packs well in capacity and voltages you will be fine.

Someone suggested a page or two back a carry-on.over-the-frame solution for the additional battery where 2 packs where mounted of each side of the frame. If those matches the original battery should all work out well, yes? Or am I too ignorant or too unschooled to see obvious flaws here?

User avatar
efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1122
Joined: Feb 15 2013 4:43pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 03 2018 11:35am

as far as increasing the range on surron such as for commuting or enduro riding, etc ..

you could likely fit quite of few more cells under the moto seat with a custom seat strut.. slide the optional seat batt pack in and out from the back (keep an eye on suspension clearance or run a bit smaller diameter rear wheel for more clearance such as 18" rear wheel) .. also a rear rack with side hard case mount could be used for extra battery storage, etc .. and you could increase the stock battery height above the current batt cover by maybe 10-20% + similar to zero power tank range extender .. I would be watching EVE bikes (surron France) as one of the firsts to offer surron mods since they were involved with helping surron achieve homolgation and have the different surron body kit styles in the works..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

User avatar
pipeking   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 29
Joined: May 02 2018 3:27pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by pipeking » Nov 03 2018 10:24pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 02 2018 6:56pm
pipeking wrote:
Nov 02 2018 6:41pm
Yes I think so too, I want to try the new controller out and see if that makes a difference. I'm not sure how long I'm going to have to wait though, it sounds like they are in short supply.
If you find yourself riding the breaks a lot, then it will definitely make a noticeable improvement to the range, your pads will last much longer, less likely to overheat the pads, and you will have much better braking power when needed.

Looks like @Aebrennan aebikes have them in stock and ship internationally:
https://www.aebikes.com.au/spare-parts.html
Nope, he says he doesn't have them. I bought my bike from him so I feel like he would sell me one if he had them, I even offered to pay in advance but he reckons he has some on the way, arriving early november.

All I can do is wait I guess.

Its actually really difficult to get anything for this bike here in NZ, I don't know why, but I don't get replies from the guys who are supposed to the nz dealer. I have been trying to get a controller and a 52T sprocket since I got my bike in August... Adam is really busy but I think the aussie guys are getting the parts first

Aebrennan   100 W

100 W
Posts: 247
Joined: Jan 06 2017 4:08am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 05 2018 7:02am

Our latest shipment arrived on Friday and we will be sending out pre orders this week to our Australian and New Zealand customers. The controllers have not been reliable and I would prefer not to send anymore overseas until the factory can support customer warranty directly. The X-perimental controllers and bikes were Chinese domestic market only for good reason.

User avatar
3DTOPO   100 W

100 W
Posts: 211
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 05 2018 4:57pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Nov 05 2018 7:02am
Our latest shipment arrived on Friday and we will be sending out pre orders this week to our Australian and New Zealand customers. The controllers have not been reliable and I would prefer not to send anymore overseas until the factory can support customer warranty directly.
I'm just curious what has been the problem with the X Controllers? I haven't had any issues with mine after about 300 miles on it. But I kept my stock one just in case though. :wink:
Aebrennan wrote:
Nov 05 2018 7:02am
The X-perimental controllers and bikes were Chinese domestic market only for good reason.
Didn't they discontinue the non-X model? The only model they list on tmall now is the X model. So did they work out the issue, or are they selling a "defective" model now?

Aebrennan   100 W

100 W
Posts: 247
Joined: Jan 06 2017 4:08am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 05 2018 8:46pm

The sine wave controllers are termed “unstable” by the factory whatever their understanding of the term is?
We have had issues of throttle not responding, throttle not responding with identical power delivery, no drive from standstill, and poor wiring termination at connectors.
We are not given any diagnostic cabling or software to diagnose so the only way is to fit the standard controller to confirm.
I will check the latest batch of controllers and see what software version they are up to, the controllers we received in July were version 2.1 and the regen was subtle and top speed was 60kmh by gps test.
The factory still supplies the reliable square wave version and I suspect that will continue as the road legal bike EU L1e version was homologated with this controller.

User avatar
ziltoid81   100 W

100 W
Posts: 280
Joined: Mar 07 2014 9:35pm
Location: Germany

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 05 2018 10:29pm

So i get basically no sinewave, no regen, for 4800€ (thats nearly 5500$) ..... here in EU(of course the streetlegal version)?

User avatar
efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1122
Joined: Feb 15 2013 4:43pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 05 2018 10:41pm

ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 05 2018 10:29pm
So i get basically no sinewave, no regen, for 4800€ (thats nearly 5500$) ..... here in EU(of course the streetlegal version)?
depends on what your dealer orders and what Sur-Ron ships.. you can get Sur-Ron L1e homolgated version with X controller or add it after market..

example :
https://stagmotorcycles.co.uk/products/ ... ht-bee-le1
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

User avatar
ziltoid81   100 W

100 W
Posts: 280
Joined: Mar 07 2014 9:35pm
Location: Germany

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 06 2018 12:52am

Thanks but thats even more expensive, too much for this toy in my eyes.
Its a nice bike, but it really changed from a nice deal to a rip off over time.
4500 gbp are nearly 5900 dollar.......
I really liked the numbers in the early postings..... 8)

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2127
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 06 2018 9:13am

At that price the Zero FX is only a few grand more and in my state there is a tax credit $750 for purchasing one!

Sur-ron imo is a $3k dollar bike any more and it starts getting laughable

captnshrms   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Nov 01 2018 3:17am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 06 2018 11:54am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 9:13am
At that price the Zero FX is only a few grand more and in my state there is a tax credit $750 for purchasing one!

Sur-ron imo is a $3k dollar bike any more and it starts getting laughable
Compared to what? Where are the bikes that go 40mph with 30 miles range for $3,000 out the door. Ebikes are stupid expensive if you don't build them yourself. Although the Zero is getting to be a great deal now. Still, they are completely different bikes. You can't take a zero on bike trails, and you can't wreck a Sur-ron like you could a zero without destroying it. They are both electric and have 2 wheels, but not very similar at all. I can't imagine anyone shopping for a bike or motorcycle actually choosing between those 2, except maybe a huge EV nerd. Anyone else is looking at one or the other.

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2127
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 06 2018 1:23pm

Take a look at the first page of this thread...they started off at under $3000 actually.

You can have your opinion and ill have that much more money in the bank! But yes a Zero and sur ron are not nearly the same that is exactly why the sur ron should not be $6000

bionicon   100 W

100 W
Posts: 260
Joined: Jun 28 2015 2:29pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by bionicon » Nov 06 2018 1:40pm


User avatar
efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1122
Joined: Feb 15 2013 4:43pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 06 2018 1:41pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 1:23pm
Take a look at the first page of this thread...they started off at under $3000 actually.

You can have your opinion and ill have that much more money in the bank! But yes a Zero and sur ron are not nearly the same that is exactly why the sur ron should not be $6000
remember this is the homolgated version and europe price.. homolgation costs money, how much is the homolgated kuberg and lmx?? comparison to zero is not relevant .. the off-road version with square wave controller is available for less$$ and you could always change the controller if you want regen..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

User avatar
skeetab5780   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2127
Joined: Jun 15 2009 10:58pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 06 2018 2:20pm

Im not sure i can relate to the homolgation costing more since that does not really matter here in the states. Fetcher and other members are street commuting with the regular sur-ron with very few mods(lights blinkers and mirrors) you dont even need a license plate holder because mopeds just get a sticker around here. With that being said maybe things are more strict on the other side of the world, but to make the vehicles price double? Now thats ridiculous

I guess you can blame tariffs too but where do you draw the line? For me its not ever buying one of these bikes. I just sit back and watch

And the Zero comparison is based strictly on price ofc. I myself shy away from the Zero because you need actual insurance and plates since its an actual motorcycle

User avatar
ziltoid81   100 W

100 W
Posts: 280
Joined: Mar 07 2014 9:35pm
Location: Germany

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 06 2018 2:59pm

Not that i dont have the money but it went through the roof a little bit.
I understand that everybody wants to push their profits to the max but it changes the bike from a fairly cheap great deal to a rip off.
There are other bikes like the bultaco brinco in this new price range.
And the spare parts and service situation is still unclear.

However i just found a german vendor via german craigslist and they do an early bird/preorder offer for 3900€ for the street legal version.
Its a bikeshop.
But theyre stating that the bikes will stock up or arrive in feb/march.
Will write them an see.
Also a second bikeshop which offers for 4200€......i wonder that theyre making better prices like the big players mentioned here, but at this stage i dont know how legit these offers are.

SlowCo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 912
Joined: Jan 05 2015 5:43pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Nov 06 2018 3:39pm

ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 2:59pm
However i just found a german vendor via german craigslist and they do an early bird/preorder offer for 3900€ for the street legal version.
Its a bikeshop.
But theyre stating that the bikes will stock up or arrive in feb/march.
Will write them an see.
Also a second bikeshop which offers for 4200€......i wonder that theyre making better prices like the big players mentioned here, but at this stage i dont know how legit these offers are.
Any links for them?

User avatar
ziltoid81   100 W

100 W
Posts: 280
Joined: Mar 07 2014 9:35pm
Location: Germany

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 06 2018 4:53pm

Just visit "ebay kleinanzeigen" and search for sur ron.

Seems like a few local bikestores will sell the bike, got another offer for the offroad version for 4000€.

User avatar
3DTOPO   100 W

100 W
Posts: 211
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 06 2018 5:41pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 2:20pm
Im not sure i can relate to the homolgation costing more since that does not really matter here in the states.
Did I miss something? If you are in the states, why not purchase from Luna? They are $3,890 - that is a pretty far cry from $6,000.
skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 2:20pm
I guess you can blame tariffs too but where do you draw the line? For me its not ever buying one of these bikes. I just sit back and watch
Luna claims that the Imbecile in Chief's tariffs is costing $500 per bike. I actually believe them too, because they didn't immediately raise the price on the bikes in stock after the tariffs went into effect, they raised them on the next shipment.
skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 2:20pm
And the Zero comparison is based strictly on price ofc. I myself shy away from the Zero because you need actual insurance and plates since its an actual motorcycle
I'm pretty sure that if you ride the Sur-Ron on any public streets in the US you will still need "moped" insurance (and possibly plates depending on the state), and a motorcycle endorsement in some states.

User avatar
3DTOPO   100 W

100 W
Posts: 211
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 06 2018 5:46pm

bionicon wrote:
Nov 06 2018 1:40pm
Maybe buy it direct here :https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 3e5ffpA61j
Interesting, thanks for the link. They have the X Model listed here:
https://jiesute.en.alibaba.com/product/ ... 2e79Dgzyzc

I am going to inquire how much it is delivered to the US.

Post Reply