A portable gasoline generator for long range

Got to agree with the get a motorcycle idea. I gave up the idea of really long range e biking, and got a 400cc scooter.

FWIW, because I'm a safe bet for insurance, (old fart) including insurance its only costing me about 15 cents a mile. That's just about half the cost per mile of my 80 mile range e bikes. Big ass battery for long range just cost too much, and wore out fast.

So this is my long range ride now, goes about 200 miles on three gallons of gas at 75 mph. Betcha a small generator driving an ebike takes almost as much gas!, at 20 mph.

Ebikes are generally only practical for relatively short rides. I'd say that usually means 20 mile trips or less. My 16 mile commute is pushing the limits in my situation since it costs me twice the travel time compared to using a motor vehicle.

Of course, you can go much further than 20 miles on an e-bike. But you generally do so for reasons that aren't particularly "practical", such as exercise, adventure, pleasure of riding, etc.

flat tire said:

You are describing a shitty gas powered bike with unnecessary electrical bits.

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I've had the same idea, though at the time I was thinking electric motorcycle more than bicycle. The point, as I imagined it, was that an IC motor can run far more efficiently at constant speed (true?) So the gas motor would be an off-and-on constant level power source, with the drive motor on the other side of the storage - like a steam engine.

donn said:

flat tire said:

You are describing a shitty gas powered bike with unnecessary electrical bits.

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I've had the same idea, though at the time I was thinking electric motorcycle more than bicycle. The point, as I imagined it, was that an IC motor can run far more efficiently at constant speed (true?) So the gas motor would be an off-and-on constant level power source, with the drive motor on the other side of the storage - like a steam engine.

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I don't think the efficiency gains from constant speed end up being enough to counter the added liabilities of weight, cost, complexity and noise. This is especially hard with something that starts out as a lightweight vehicle. Even the Chevy Volt gives in and uses a clutch to connect its "generator" motor directly to the drivetrain at times. A fuel cell might make sense if it were cheap enough and small enough.

It's been some time, and eventually I solved the problem using a secondary battery:
The primary battery is 24S LiFe that can "tolerate" the harsh currents (including regen), and it's much heavier than the secondary.
The secondary is lightweight GA cells based battery that supplements the primary - it only outputs small amount of powers, but at more or less constant rate. The much higher IR of the GA battery, naturally limits the amount of power that it exhibit, vs the primary LiFe.

If that gets tiring, maybe a recumbent is an option for you? A good one will cut your watt hours per mile in half. A really good one will do better than that. There are also things you can do to increase the aerodynamics of upright bikes.

neptronix said:

If that gets tiring, maybe a recumbent is an option for you? A good one will cut your watt hours per mile in half. A really good one will do better than that. There are also things you can do to increase the aerodynamics of upright bikes.

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I dream of recumbent... More comfortable on long range, and much less mileage.
The thing is about where I live, that the roads are so congested (People here like to use private cars ALOT), that it would be very dangerous to have such a low profile bike. (And pot-holes are issue within cities, and I find a rigid recumbent quite uncomfortable on bumpy roads. Are there full suspension recumbent?)
Another issue with recumbents - they take a lot of space and hard to maneuver (if possible at all) at stairways.
To enter my apartment I have to do several 180 degree turns on stairways. This is possible with an upright bicycle.

There's recumbents that put your head within a few inches of where it would be versus where a typical car driver's head would be. They're usually referred to as semi recumbents. I'm building one like this now.

Have been riding in traffic etc and haven't noticed that less people try to kill me, vs my roadbike. On a lower profile recumbent, you'd want a flag at a bare minimum.

ATMs ( at least in my area ) are at perfect recumbent height because recumbent height and sedan/coupe height are basically the same.



Here is my dual suspension beast.



There are smaller more upright recumbents than mine which are lighter and can be easily maneuvered. One of the big upsides is one with a very small wheel. If you are using a hub motor, you can downsize your motor a bit, since hubs in small wheels produce more power per lb due to the higher RPM.

Visibility is hugely overrated. Lots of people still won't see you and won't pay attention even if you take "extreme" visibility measures. You need to take your life into your own hands when riding or someone else may take it away.

What do you do when you're invisible? Use cars as shields as much as possible and ride your own ride.

I just happened to be watching a video from the laid back bike report. Here's a semi recumbent rider next to an upright rider. The upright rider is just a bit shorter.



Because the upright bike forces you forward, your head ends up bring roughly in the same spot.

neptronix said:

I just happened to be watching a video from the laid back bike report. Here's a semi recumbent rider next to an upright rider. The upright rider is just a bit shorter.
<snip>
Because the upright bike forces you forward, your head ends up bring roughly in the same spot.

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Is your tongue in your cheek? A "little bit shorter" Really? It is hard, sometimes, to detect sarcasm and humor based exaggeration online. Anyway, the upright rider is the recumbent rider's Mom. I wouldn't be surprised if he's well over 6 feet tall and possibly as much as foot taller than his Mom. If he were on a properly sized upright, he'd be easily a full head height higher than she is. And he's on a semi-recumbent.

What I like about the upright bike visibility is that it provides me a better view of the world. Not only is the seated eye level higher than even a semi-recumbent for any given rider, but you can stand up on the pedals to get an even higher view if so desired. If the higher riding level helps drivers see me, that's fine. But I think that's a secondary benefit.

As for flat tire's claim that visibility is overrated, I'm not sure what that means. If it means that you can't count on visibility to keep you safe, then I agree with that. If it means that improving visibility has such low benefit that it isn't worth bothering with, then I disagree. I try to do almost everything practical to be seen and then try to ride as if I'm not being seen until and unless I get driver eye contact to confirm that I've been seen.

dogman dan said:

Got to agree with the get a motorcycle idea. I gave up the idea of really long range e biking, and got a 400cc scooter.

FWIW, because I'm a safe bet for insurance, (old fart) including insurance its only costing me about 15 cents a mile. That's just about half the cost per mile of my 80 mile range e bikes. Big ass battery for long range just cost too much, and wore out fast.

So this is my long range ride now, goes about 200 miles on three gallons of gas at 75 mph. Betcha a small generator driving an ebike takes almost as much gas!, at 20 mph. Burgman 400.jpg

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I tend to agree with you about getting an motor-cycle for long range, and I will probably do it one day. I am still relatively young, so insurance rates for me cost the same order as a 800Wh battery per year...
BUT - Your E-bicycle mileage is quite expensive!
How come?
This is based on life-cycles count of your battery?
I am pretty sure you are aware of the huge benefit of partial charge (for example 80% usage of a battery gives you way more than 20% more life cycles if charged to 100%), are you ?

And reading this justify my stand about A123's. They are still the most economical on the long run.
I wrote on another thread, that A123 cells I bought in 2011, experienced thousands of life cycles with brutal C rates (20C discharge, 4C charge), and now, in 2019, 8.5 years later - only lost 20% of their capacity.
Can you even match anything like this with "modern" Li-Ion technology?
It's so sad they went bankrupt.... :?

Quick math. If my ebike cost me $1500 and I've ridden 9000 miles on it, ignoring the approximately $35 spent in electricity, I've spent 16.6 cents/mile.

Realistically, my ebike has probably cost me more than $1500 If I were to consider all maintenance and all the various things I've experimented with. So at $2000, I'm at 22.2 cents/mile. Even if I ride for 20,000 miles and spend only $500 more on maintenance and repair, my cost per mile only drops to 12.5 cents/mile.

I'm not sure how Dogman is figuring his Suzuki costs, but he's spending about 4.5 cents/mile on gas.

wturber said:

Quick math. If my ebike cost me $1500 and I've ridden 9000 miles on it, ignoring the approximately $35 spent in electricity, I've spent 16.6 cents/mile.

Realistically, my ebike has probably cost me more than $1500 If I were to consider all maintenance and all the various things I've experimented with. So at $2000, I'm at 22.2 cents/mile. Even if I ride for 20,000 miles and spend only $500 more on maintenance and repair, my cost per mile only drops to 12.5 cents/mile.

I'm not sure how Dogman is figuring his Suzuki costs, but he's spending about 4.5 cents/mile on gas.

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Well, if you compare the running costs like that, then car/motorcycle are more expensive because they have even higher maintenance (&license&insurance) costs. Plus, they lose their values over the years as well, sometimes even more than an electric bicycle.
Just the operating cost of a car (without loss of value, taxes, etc...), is in the order of 66cents per mile.
Every mean of transportation has it's costs and wearings. Even non electric bicycle (tires, chain, etc..), and even when you walk (shoes....)

thunderstorm80 said:

Well, if you compare the running costs like that, then car/motorcycle are more expensive because they have even higher maintenance (&license&insurance) costs. Plus, they lose their values over the years as well, sometimes even more than an electric bicycle.

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The only way I see the motor scooter Dogman mentioned coming in line with the e-bike numbers would be if it were purchased used. I found two locally listed below $2500. One was $1000. Buying used is a great way to mitigate value loss over years with a car. I'm assuming it works similarly with motorcycles/scooters.

You'd have to do more in-depth accounting than I did to get the true cost per mile. My calculations were meant mainly as food for thought and also to perhaps get Dogman to explain a bit more about how he got to his figures.

Re the running costs. yeah, gas is about 4 cents a mile for the Suzuki, 65 mpg makes the gas cost little. And gas is again dirt cheap in the USA.

But to go 80 miles per charge, over a mountain or two, then you don't get an e bike for 1500 bucks. More like that just for battery, and needing it replaced every two or three years. We are talking packing 2000 watt hours here for that kind of range, not 800wh. And to pack 2000 real world wh, its about three of those 800wh batteries, since the day you buy a battery its real world useable capacity starts dropping. That's all assuming you use the shit out of that battery, as I did. Others run 1000wh, but only really use 400wh per ride, at 200w of power. Of course the battery lasts a long time if you ride like that. But when I commuted, I did on 75% cycle and one 100% drained cycle a day. I went through a lot of batteries then, and when going 80 miles, I was usually packing several old worn out batteries that only gave about 60%. It seemed like I needed to spend at least 500 bucks on batteries every single year, while going about 20% the same distance I could go on the gas cost of the scoot.


In effect, the battery alone for the long range e bike costs more than the Suzuki did. Those big scooters are hard to sell, when grandpa dies. Real men ride Harleys, but when a scooter owner gets too old, the son cant give the damn thing away. So that's the other reason I ride the scoot so cheap.


But again, if you just need 10-15 miles per trip, then an e bike with no insurance gets very affordable. I saved 20 thou in 4 years by doing the e bike commute. ( I put off a new car purchase costing 20K for years) What I was saying though, is that if you need to go 10,000 miles a year, then smaller gas motorcycles that get 60 mpg plus get a lot cheaper, tons more reliable, and your travel time can be cut by as much as 75%.

dogman dan said:

Re the running costs. yeah, gas is about 4 cents a mile for the Suzuki, 65 mpg makes the gas cost little. And gas is again dirt cheap in the USA.

But to go 80 miles per charge, over a mountain or two, then you don't get an e bike for 1500 bucks. More like that just for battery, and needing it replaced every two or three years. We are talking packing 2000 watt hours here for that kind of range, not 800wh. And to pack 2000 real world wh, its about three of those 800wh batteries, since the day you buy a battery its real world useable capacity starts dropping. That's all assuming you use the shit out of that battery, as I did. Others run 1000wh, but only really use 400wh per ride, at 200w of power. Of course the battery lasts a long time if you ride like that. But when I commuted, I did on 75% cycle and one 100% drained cycle a day. I went through a lot of batteries then, and when going 80 miles, I was usually packing several old worn out batteries that only gave about 60%. It seemed like I needed to spend at least 500 bucks on batteries every single year, while going about 20% the same distance I could go on the gas cost of the scoot.


In effect, the battery alone for the long range e bike costs more than the Suzuki did. Those big scooters are hard to sell, when grandpa dies. Real men ride Harleys, but when a scooter owner gets too old, the son cant give the damn thing away. So that's the other reason I ride the scoot so cheap.


But again, if you just need 10-15 miles per trip, then an e bike with no insurance gets very affordable. I saved 20 thou in 4 years by doing the e bike commute. ( I put off a new car purchase costing 20K for years) What I was saying though, is that if you need to go 10,000 miles a year, then smaller gas motorcycles that get 60 mpg plus get a lot cheaper, tons more reliable, and your travel time can be cut by as much as 75%.

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Since you live in the USA, where it's way cheaper to own a motored vehicle by all means (purchase price, insurance, gas), I can understand those figures. But living outside the USA, the calculations are quite different.
It's still valid and true that for long ranges (like 100km), a gas powered vehicle can perform way better than battery powered.

For me, besides the lower running costs of an E-bike, most of the reason to favor it is the green perspective:
I really dislike the fact that nowadays almost everybody use a 1000Kg+ car to take them everywhere, and forcing all of us to experience higher and higher CO2 levels every year. This is already becoming a fact, not just a myth.
In fact, on the rare occasions when I find myself driving a car, I think that I am part of pollution making, and remember that my A/C works harder and harder every summer, and part of it is thanks to that.
The USA is one of the worst (or best) contributors of CO2 emissions, and the fact that fuel and automotive in general is so darn cheap over there, is part of that reason. (along the fact that Americans loves their cars)
Hope this will change as soon as possible..... We already have CO2 levels that weren't seen since the last 2 million years.

So where are you? You did not fill in that info so it appears in each post. Just what continent will suffice. Maybe you said where someplace, but I don't see it in the first post.

Again, its the number of miles I was riding that made it cost so much per mile to e bike commute. I went through a lot more tires per 10000 miles than the motorcycle for one, I wore out a bunch of bikes too. All part of that cost I added up. It was not so cheap to pile on the miles like that on bikes. I hammered a lot of batteries, and some did not last at all. Others did. Same with the motors, the ones I started out with burned up on the tough commute I did. A lot of that cost per mile was not supposed to be spent, but it was after all. Much better chance now to pick the right stuff from the start.

Absolutely, it matters a lot where you are. In my state of the us, its dirt cheap to own a bunch of vehicles. And my age and driving record makes insuring that extra scoot dirt cheap.

So when I need to drive my gas hog van I do, but mostly I ride the scooter. Not as eco as the e bike to the grocery of course, but I do really try to avoid driving that van unless its full of dogs, or bikes, or other large cargo. I use only as much vehicle as I must, each trip. When I want the exercise, I do still ride the e bike to the store. But now that I don't commute, I tend to ride the e bike just for recreation.

Hard to break the big vehicle habit when gas is this cheap here. But I feel I did more than 90% of people did for the planet. I never reproduced. Just imaging how much less carbon I'm responsible compared to somebody with 4 kids, who will have kids, who will have kids.

Back to the original idea, if you need to carry the generator only occasionally, go that way for sure. But if you need to go faster or farther often, choose the smallest motorcycle or gas scooter that can do that.

I say this, because living with transportation that is a pain in the ass is a cost too. So if you need all that range weekly, go for something that does that easiest. For sure, really long range batteries will make your normal ride cost per mile skyrocket. 2000wh of battery is never cheap. Even where you are, a small gas motorcycle cost per mile will be less, if you are riding 20,000 km per year.

And if or when you can afford it, go for an e bike as well, so you can use the minimum carbon on the shorter easier trips too. Always use the least vehicle you need, but don't saddle yourself with a vehicle that too often does not suit your needs.

dogman dan said:

Hard to break the big vehicle habit when gas is this cheap here. But I feel I did more than 90% of people did for the planet. I never reproduced. Just imaging how much less carbon I'm responsible compared to somebody with 4 kids, who will have kids, who will have kids.

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Thank you. I do get tired of listening to people preaching their eco gospel after they've added (or intend to add) more human beans (who odds are will add even more human beans ) to the planet.

thunderstorm80 said:

For me, besides the lower running costs of an E-bike, most of the reason to favor it is the green perspective:
I really dislike the fact that nowadays almost everybody use a 1000Kg+ car to take them everywhere, and forcing all of us to experience higher and higher CO2 levels every year. This is already becoming a fact, not just a myth.

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What isn't a fact is what those higher CO2 levels actually do. There's a lot of fuzziness and variation in the various models. Models, BTW, that have HUGE variations in prediced effect.

thunderstorm80 said:

In fact, on the rare occasions when I find myself driving a car, I think that I am part of pollution making, and remember that my A/C works harder and harder every summer, and part of it is thanks to that.

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Well, this is where you are losing track with the facts. Depending on where you live, the fractional effect of global warming over the years may not have had any net effect on your A/C use. Odds are that local and regional factors swamp the global ones. Additionally, a slightly malfunctioning thermostat, leaky door seal, or a marginal weather seal may swamp any effects from global warming on how hard your A/C must work. Oh, and BTW, in most parts of the world, running your A/C is adding CO2. Most electricity is generated using fossil fuels.

thunderstorm80 said:

Hope this will change as soon as possible..... We already have CO2 levels that weren't seen since the last 2 million years.

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That's probably true. But please be sure to look at the uncertainty bands around any claim regarding prehistoric data like this. We didn't have monitoring stations back then so we make our best estimates using proxies, core samples etc. We don't have direct measurements and this introduces a degree of uncertainty. Also keep in mind when you are looking at the various CO2 graphs that they have typically been constructed to make the rise seem visually dramatic in various ways.

In short, there's a lot of hype surrounding the CO2/Climate Change topic because there are Trillions of dollars up for grabs in this game. So keep your skeptical hat on when listening to ANY side on this topic.

All that said, I'm a big fan of using less. I'm about 80% commuting by ebike these days. I turn off the water while brushing my teeth. I don't buy bottled water. I don't like to waste stuff. And Dogman's scooter suggestion is sensible. It uses far less gasoline (though it probably produces lots of non-CO2 pollutants per gallon of gas burned than would a modern automobile) than traveling by car and possibly has less total impact on the environment than an ebike used regularly over such distances. It is a sensible solution from just about any angle with the possible exception of personal safety and protection from the elements. The right automobile driven sensibly is almost always safer and more weather resistant than the alternatives.

wturber said:

What isn't a fact is what those higher CO2 levels actually do. There's a lot of fuzziness and variation in the various models. Models, BTW, that have HUGE variations in prediced effect.

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Well, we know two things for sure.

1) They change the ocean's pH and make it more acidic. That's an easy first order effect, and is based on fairly simple chemistry. More CO2 dissolved in water = lower pH.

2) They increase trapped heat. Again, first order effect. We have a good handle on this, and increase in trapped heat has met predictions.

Where all the "fuzziness and variation" comes in are second order effects. As the planet warms, for example, more water evaporates. Water is a very strong greenhouse gas. So this will tend to increase the warming we see. But clouds on the sunward side of the planet increase the planet's albedo and reflect more light - so that will tend to slow down the warming. Clouds on the night side will tend to _increase_ warming. So is that, net, a warming or cooling effect? So far the models say that it's a slight amplification, but we don't have enough data there to be sure yet.

So we know with good certainty (99% or so) what higher CO2 levels alone will do. The second order changes from that are where the uncertainty is. But the remaining uncertainty is not "will it get warmer?" - the uncertainty is in how fast and what else will happen.

thunderstorm80 said:

For me, besides the lower running costs of an E-bike, most of the reason to favor it is the green perspective.

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While I agree there, note that running a scooter/motorcycle is still way, way better than a car. And if that footprint still bugs you there are plenty of sources for biofuels out there now, from methane to E85 to biodiesel.

This is an engineering forum. It's best to not wander into politics ( just fuel for an argument! ) and just talk about solutions and designs

I think a nicely aero kitted recumbent that balances visibility and aerodynamics like mine is many miles ahead of a gas scooter in every way. Not only is it cheaper to purchase, but easier to service ( lighter, cheaper parts, etc ), cheaper per mile, and well capable of providing the desired 100+ mile ranges due to the fact that even a kitted out semi recumbent like mine could go twice the distance of an upright.

As a bonus, you don't have to feel the vibrations of a 1-2 cylinder gasoline engine, create poisonous smoke, and listen to the obnoxious soundtrack of some of that petroleum being turned into noise, instead of power.

I recently found a new handlebar position ( i call this the laidback superman stance ) where you make a 'v' with your arms and it's actually good for a MPH or two increase in speed. So yeah, even recumbents' efficiencies can be improved on



You can find the bits and pieces to make fairings lying on the road. They come in the form of coroplast signs that have blown off, car bumpers, and even random pieces like the one i picked up last night, which is a couple coroplast panels and some hardware away from making an excellent fairing. Should make for another 10-15% improvement in MPH per watt. Rad.



With the right rear cargo box setup ( mounted on the back seat ), you can also have as much, if not more storage than on a scooter.



And a battery like this large em3ev rectangle can easily net you a 60 mile range at 30mph, if not better. You can easily exceed the 100 mile range mark by pedaling along with the motor at lower speeds ( ~25mph ).



A recumbent or semi recumbent is the most killer long range solution. For the dollar, it's many multiples more fun and more free than any gas powered thing that requires registration, licensing, insurance, and dino juice.

You may even find that it's a joy bringing machine even without a motor. Being able to sustain 20mph for me is a thrill in itself.

Hi, everyone! Here's my solution. I've start with quick local market research. Soon i've found smallest and lightest generator from widely presentent ones. It was popular chinesse built inverter model which can be find all around the world, locally known as "Patriot 1000i". Then i've simply attached it by strap to side of my trunk:



I've start generator and plug my 7,5A charger in, that went well. From that point i've got myself "constant" source of 600W power capacty. My calculations were simple: 6 kWt*h in battery + (10 hours * 0,6kWt from generator) = 12kWt*h power within 10 hours ride. With top speed around 50 km/h, average speed around 40 km/h and average power consumption around 30 Wt*h/km that gives me 400 kilometers of day ride! For comfort and safety reasons i consider to myself no more than 350 km per day with little overhead .

Soon i've went to my first two-day weekend test trip with generator. I've rode for 19 hours and cover a distance of 521 km with 8 litres of petrol for generator. I got such low average speed because of many dirt roads on my way:

















But you know - no dirt roads = no adventures

All went suprisingly well! Noise from generator was tolerable, no break-downs nor hickups whatsoever. Total fuel consumption from my rough reconing - around 2 liters per 100 kilometers, not great, not terrible!

Next time i want to achieve my 350 km per day goal.
I hope my post was helpfull.

WBR, Evgeny aka Skorohod.

Skorohod, Those road conditions, or lack off, look like they would really put a bike to the test. Even at 50km a hour 350km in a day is way more hours on a bike seat than my spine could take.