new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Skaiwerd said:
Sounds like a nightmare honestly. So many advantages of building one yourself. Glad in several years no police hastles for me.
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These utilitarian boxes are actually more stealthy than triangle boxes in the frame, these ones look like you are just carrying a toolbox. I'm thinking of making the bike more stealth by putting some well known brand stickers on my battery triangle, maybe some ride sharing or grocery store brand so they think it is a box.
 
Tommm

I’ve gotten some flack from friends and acquaintances about the plain battery box. They are just city artist types that think something plain and boring looking should be pretty-ed up as much as possible. I tell them most ebike battery boxes are black and plain and simple, so is mine, just rectangular and not a triangle in shape, I show them pictures of other bikes. The placement is where my legs are so that helps. They don’t know the importantance of staying low key with and ebike. Just one state away, New York, ebikes are illegal and get confiscated so being mostly ignored in country or city settings is great.
 
Flat tire

The chain tensioner is on the slack side. The chain is not tight and not under load as it is. Been working great for three years now. The only mishap is when I go out in pants and catch a pant leg in it and it gets bent out of alignment and won’t function. I manage to get home. A pivoting motor mount would be ideal and not have the tensioner at all.
 
Tommm said:
AlpinaEbiker said:
What happened when you wrote disaster happened and opened gears after? Did you strip the gears?

How do you know it causes problems with police? Did they bother you about it?
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I haven't seen the 3kw motor but from pics it seems the 4kw is of a similar design with much more torque, and if you replace the nylon gears by the metalic ones it will break the piece that holds them together instead of wearing them out. that's the "disaster" I'm pointing out on the pics. seems the axles of the 3 gears are welded onto this part instead of having it made from one solid bloc, but again at this price... so I sent the whole thing back to Paco.

I have a job that involves heavy hours so I wanted a ready to ride bike with the specs I mentioned earlier, therefore I logically thought (stupidly ? :roll: ) that if cyclone designs the motors they must sell you a fully mounted bike that holds their own product.

In addition no info on the PAS and as you mention it doesnt really work well.

As I live at the french / swiss border the regulations are a bit different and Geneva is now allowing ebikes with PAS only up to 50kmh or 30kmh in bike lanes which are everywhere... so basically I got a fair warning as they didnt stop me on the road itself but clearly they don't like to see something accelerating without PAS on the streets. the main brand around is stromer but daaamn it is expensive for a city ride. I will most likely pick something from vector ebike once I am done with this one ( unless you guys can recommand a perfect balance of PAS city ride and decent acceleration off road )

I never even tried jumping the slightest thing but just the vibrations from riding oof road are disconnecting those cheap cables one after the other. and I actually broke the back wheel driving down a 20cm sidewalk...
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Backwards? Forwards? Chain tensioner on wrong side?

I presume the chain tensioner is for the motor chain which runs from the motor cog to a chain ring mounted on the bottom bracket axle.

The most common mounting location for the Cyclone motor is in front of the BB and this puts the chain tensioner below a line between the motor axle and the BB axle.

Now, imagine rotating the motor frame and motor about the BB. Rotating the motor frame 180 degrees of counterclockwisewise rotation from the normal mounting aspect will put the motor in a location that is similar to where the motor is in the photo i.e. Between the down tube and the seat tube.

As the motor frame rotation moves the frame through this angle change the chain tensioner will also rotate to where it is on the high side of the line betweeen the motor shaft and the BB axle when the 180 degrees of rotation is achieved.

Gents: it looks to me like the chain tensioner is not on the power pulling side but just where it must be to work correctly -- for taking up the slack.
 
Any word on who's selling better motor mounts for the 3000 at the moment? Google brings me threads here for ones no longer sold, Luna doesn't have any in (and don't reply to questions about it)...

I used to think the standard mounts were fine, got used to seeing them twist a little bit. But I've been having problems with the motor freewheel slipping for no reason (not worn chain/freewheel) and eventually figured out what's going on. The flexing has gradually loosened up the bottom bracket lockrings, letting it twist more, until eventually it's flexing so much the chain detentions.

Now that's a real mess for me because my chain fell to bits when I took it off to investigate, and being in holland half links are hard to find. I need this bike for my job.

Taking every failure as an opportunity to upgrade to a stronger part.
 
I don’t think anyone is selling decent, proven cyclone mounts. Sick bike parts and Luna cycle have versions but they are untested and reviewed here in ES. Sick bikes looks like the standard mount that maybe just does not come in the kit. Luna’s looks promising just not my thing. I got my hands on one from LA ebike when he sold them. Seems his business is in a low spot now, think guys try to offer too much in the ebike industry. Could have survived on the mounts he offered. Very expensive at $99 + $50 to ship but it’s proveen to be the be best by myself. Doesn’t matter he no longer offers the mounts. Dingus McGee has posted a modification of the stock mount by placing some reinforcement at an angle to a bolt on the motor, others also have their versions.
 

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That's a pain. Someone really needs to offer a cyclone kit kit. Basically a replacement for everything except the motor.
 
khorse said:
That's a pain. Someone really needs to offer a cyclone kit kit. Basically a replacement for everything except the motor.
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You don't need to replace everything, you can order just the motor. The controller is a standard yuyang king, but really anything can be put on it. I run a 80A yuyang king with the 4kw cyclone.
 
I really wish a better mount option was still available :( It also seems like support for cyclone in general has been falling off. A few years ago Luna came out with a bunch of Cyclone products, but most are out of stock and it doesn't look like they are going to get more.
 
Makes me wonder then what's grabbing all their attention. I picked a cyclone because it's entirely function rather than form, it's simple and doesn't try to hide anything. I was expecting it to become like what happened with those soviet two strokes places like sick bike parts sell, for it to start out cheap and junky then for a bunch of companies popping up with their own improved copies and aftermarket parts. What's the new big thing?
 
Luna seems happy to stick with Bafang stuff and also their complete bikes. I think the cyclone market must be too small.
 
What became of the cyclone is now the coaxial motor. Similar to the bafang ultra, it needs a custom frame. Cyclone makes frames, they are ok for what they are and are improved constantly, the complete bikes with componentry are a tragedy on the other hand.
 
That's depressing. A box from taiwan with a motor in it is one thing, but I don't want to be picking up an entire frame from the post office.
 
khorse said:
That's depressing. A box from taiwan with a motor in it is one thing, but I don't want to be picking up an entire frame from the post office.
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Mine was $250 for shipping. Bigger motors end controllers costs almost $100 to ship anyway.

Not trying to sell anyone anything. Just saying this seems to be the direction Paco has been going in, he is building a new alu frame now, all of them use that integrated motor. Must have took him a lot of time to get that motor sampling.
 
I've been reading this thread trying to get through it all. It's hard but I've made it to page 42. Maybe I'll get to the end in a week.

I bought a 3,000 watt Cyclone bare motor from Luna Cycle and I intend to use it in a Cycle Stoker style setup, so mid-drive but single chain (KMC 510 with 1/8" sprockets).

I am not a huge fan of deraileurs so I have a Sturmey Archer RS-RK3 IGH and a two speed planetary gear Patterson crank.

I'm going to set up the drivetrain for high rpm at the Cyclone motor to minimize the drivetrain loads. I'm doing this two ways. The first is my drive wheel is 20" rather than 26", 27.5" or 29", the smaller circumference means it has to spin faster to see the same speed. The second way is using a fairly large 18 or 22 tooth rear hub sprocket, in low gear that's effectively a 24 or 27.5 tooth hub sprocket and with the 20" rear wheel, it's the equivalent of a 31.2 or 35.75 tooth hub sprocket on a 26" drive wheel. The third thing I do is put a big 44 tooth chainring on the Patterson crank. In high gear that is equivalent to a 69 tooth which should let me do pedal assist at 30+ mph. Since the Cycle Stoker setup does not put motor torque through the crank, it can shift under (pedal) power with no issues.

One thing that I'm contemplating is eliminating the freewheel on the motor to use a fixed sprocket. It will add drag to the drivetrain when not in pedal assist or throttle mode but I'm not sure how much. If it's not too bad, that gives me another way to let the motor work at higher rpm and eliminate a potential weak spot. My only fear with that is if somehow the motor or controller fails in to full throttle reverse. I think that could drive the crank backward which wouldn't be nice if I'm clipped in and the motor goes to max rpm...

I'll make my own motor brackets so any flexibility is on me. Although the thing people don't seem to get about the factory bracket is that it holds the motor far from the bottom bracket without any support between the two relatively bendy flat plates. An upgrade at the motor does some good but it leaves the bigger issue unsolved.

As in the Cycle Stoker, I plan to use a strain gauge for pedal assist with a CA-V3 controlling the throttle on a Phaserunner or ASI motor controller.

Because of the number of batteries I ordered and my plan to make a semi-modular battery using 2,900mah 10A Panasonic 18650s. I'm thinking a 15s12p made up of 30x 1s6p modules which are in turn made up of 3x 1s2p subassemblies so that every cell sees a similar amount of wiring resistance. I have ordered a Chinese Bluetooth BMS that has an app developed by a UK based forum member.

I'm intending to do about a 25-30 mph cruise on an 18 mile round trip and charge up at work. I don't think I'm going to need the full 3,000 watts to do that but I would like to be able to push it 40 mph if I have to for short bursts. Will 15s with a Phaserunner or ASI controller (and appropriate gearing) be enough voltage/power to get up to 40? Charging is still a question for me. With a big battery, I think a 5-6 amp charge current should be barely a trickle charger but plenty to top it up during 6-7 hours of charging at work. If anyone knows a good source for that or can tell me if my BMS can control charging current, let me know.
 
Smoke said:
Because of the number of batteries I ordered and my plan to make a semi-modular battery using 2,900mah 10A Panasonic 18650s. I'm thinking a 15s12p made up of 30x 1s6p modules which are in turn made up of 3x 1s2p subassemblies so that every cell sees a similar amount of wiring resistance. I have ordered a Chinese Bluetooth BMS that has an app developed by a UK based forum member.

I'm intending to do about a 25-30 mph cruise on an 18 mile round trip and charge up at work. I don't think I'm going to need the full 3,000 watts to do that but I would like to be able to push it 40 mph if I have to for short bursts. Will 15s with a Phaserunner or ASI controller (and appropriate gearing) be enough voltage/power to get up to 40? Charging is still a question for me. With a big battery, I think a 5-6 amp charge current should be barely a trickle charger but plenty to top it up during 6-7 hours of charging at work. If anyone knows a good source for that or can tell me if my BMS can control charging current, let me know.
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15x12 is 180, that is a huge amount of batteries. Unless you are doing highway speeds, you can forget about needing to charge at work. I would recommend going 20s 9p though, 72v is easier on the heat in the motor and the chain. For 40mph, you only need about 2000w. Anything can do that.
 
Tommm said:
15x12 is 180, that is a huge amount of batteries. Unless you are doing highway speeds, you can forget about needing to charge at work. I would recommend going 20s 9p though, 72v is easier on the heat in the motor and the chain. For 40mph, you only need about 2000w. Anything can do that.
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I have 16S12P Samsung 35E's. Commuting ~25km to work takes about 30 minutes and nearly 50% battery. I can make around trip without charging but then I have to ease off on the throttle or voltage sag and LVC will start to limit a few km before finish.
Not going faster than 40km/h takes 20% battery for 25km.

Phaserunner will not work with cyclone due to it's rotor design (stray magnetic flux gives false hall pulse between magnets). Luna sold ASI, tuned to cyclone so I guess they have some kind of workaround, signal filtering maybe. Nucular controller has firmware filtering, so it should work but I would check first.
I have had my woes with Powervelocity 12F controller, using some tricks (replaced halls, added additional pull-down resistors to halls) managed to get it working but it still behaves. Trapezoidal controllers are immune to that false hall pulse.

Recently used thermal polyurethane to cast motor windings on both ends for better thermal transfer between windings and motor shell. Unfortunately I have been preoccupied and lazy to complete my "health monitoring" controller that would display temp for motor/controller/battery/ambient along with current/voltage, so I have no data how much that helped.

BTW, Have been running Shimano Alfine 8 IGH for 1500-2000km now without problems. I love the instant shifting, only need to back off throttle. But I have to admit, I had cheap derailleur before that.
 
The charging at work is because that is one of the few places where I'll be sitting in one place to keep an eye on things in case the battery bursts in to flames.

Also, I don't mind the idea of having my employer pay the electric bill.

I am thinking a wireless Bluetooth leash would be a good idea to suspend charging when I leave my desk without having to remember to unplug or flip a switch. I wonder if I can make my Bluetooth BMS do that or find some other Gizmo that can?

As for the number of cells, I figure the bike is going to deal with the extra weight most of the time and a 20 lb battery with an 8 lb motor is better than a 20 lb hub motor and a 10 lb battery. Also, I bought 10 amp cells so theoretically a 120 amp draw is ok, if I have 80 amp peak draw that's no big deal and a 20-40 amp cruise will be a nice easy load for the battery.

My commute will be a bit stop and go so beyond the 25-30 mph I would like to reach regularly, there will be fairly frequent accelerations from 0. I don't want to wheelie everywhere but I would like the acceleration to be fairly brisk. Hopefully I won't break 50 amps too often.

When I'm not commuting, I would like the battery to be good for a 50-60 mile trip with easy pedaling at 20-25 mph and maybe 100+ with slower speeds and more effort.

If I had bought less cells with a 20 amp rating and less mAh, I could make a lighter pack but pack life would probably be less, range would certainly be less and I'm not sure I would save any money because higher discharge rate cells cost a lot more than the $2.75 a cell I paid.

I'm going to have to look in to that false hall issue because I really want a nice compact controller that can give smooth, efficient performance with the CA-V3 strain gauge pedal assist and good current/speed/acceleration limits in software.

I thought for quite a while on the battery layout and pack voltage. My 1s6p triangular module will give me a lot of flexibility in the pack shape which is something I'm going to take advantage of. Also the two parallel modules will let me pair the weak with the strong if any balance issues come up. I'm going to try to reduce heat in the motor by getting the gearing right so it opperates at a happy high rpm. Hopefully my gearing and pedal assist settings will cadence limit my speed and power draw unless I shift up and spin it out quite a bit.
 
Smoke said:
I thought for quite a while on the battery layout and pack voltage. My 1s6p triangular module will give me a lot of flexibility in the pack shape which is something I'm going to take advantage of. Also the two parallel modules will let me pair the weak with the strong if any balance issues come up. I'm going to try to reduce heat in the motor by getting the gearing right so it opperates at a happy high rpm. Hopefully my gearing and pedal assist settings will cadence limit my speed and power draw unless I shift up and spin it out quite a bit.
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Did you already make the battery or just have cells? 20s is superior for a number of reasons. Easier on motor/drivetrain and easier to pull more power from it because you are amp limited on controller/motor, and many more.
 
The cells are in the mail so not assembled yet. People seem to have good performance with 13s and 14s so 15s should be fine for me.

I would love to be able to hit 40mph on occasion and from the 48v and 52v reports, it sounds possible.

The higher voltage packs seem cool if you want to stress everything, climb hills at speed or hit 66 mph in a trike.

I just want a very capable commuter street bike with long range and a surplus of power. 48v seems to be enough for that and I'll have more.
 
Tommm said:
72v is easier on the heat in the motor and the chain. For 40mph, you only need about 2000w. Anything can do that.
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Explain. Torque (phase amps) and torque ramp will determine mechanical impact on drivetrain. Strain on the motor itself depends on power input and efficiency.

This motor is not good for 40mph constant unless you have a fairing or velomobile, and probably not even good for 2000W constant unless you live in the arctic. I've burned out a few cyclones racing mtb trails and have run from 60-120 volts 2-7kw. Long story short, the cyclone sucks. In the end you're better off adapting a astro motor to the stock gearbox at the very least. That's a legit motor that weighs less and won't burn out on you at the first sign of hard use.
 
flat tire said:
Explain. Torque (phase amps) and torque ramp will determine mechanical impact on drivetrain. Strain on the motor itself depends on power input and efficiency.

This motor is not good for 40mph constant unless you have a fairing or velomobile, and probably not even good for 2000W constant unless you live in the arctic.
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I'll second that.
During summer with 30C I was able only short periods to sustain 60km/h.
If I'd build my battery again, I'd go for 20S. You can always gear for slower speed.

My powervelocity is curreltly set for 60A bat and 140A phase with "field weakening" (timing advance actually).
 
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