New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"
- Thread starter larsottar
- Start date
casainho
10 GW
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 6,045
So, the Bafang 850C color LCD is being working very well, very stable. I found that on main screen I am using letters that are too small for information like battery voltage and battery SOC in percentage...
I plan to do the main screen again and this time using bigger letters and bigger symbols like the battery symbol that has 10 bars, each bar indicating 10% SOC.
The issue is that takes a lot of time to implement so once I will implement, that will probably stay like that forever. I would like to have your opinion regarding the information I should put on the main screen, as there is a lot of variables and some of them may be hidden until users explicity click in buttons to see them. So may question is: what information are important to have on main screen and the priority/placement???
I plan to do the main screen again and this time using bigger letters and bigger symbols like the battery symbol that has 10 bars, each bar indicating 10% SOC.
The issue is that takes a lot of time to implement so once I will implement, that will probably stay like that forever. I would like to have your opinion regarding the information I should put on the main screen, as there is a lot of variables and some of them may be hidden until users explicity click in buttons to see them. So may question is: what information are important to have on main screen and the priority/placement???
casainho said:
I suppose there are basic things that are obvious:
speed, assist level, time, cadence, motor power, battery status
i personally would LOVE to have a REAL trip meter like in a car: it counts the distances UNTIL IT IS RESET (and not like now, where it goes to zero after every off). Since i have the LCD3 i never know how many km i am doing. odo is not always visible and i would need to remember the previous value...this is not convenient: so trip counter that counts until it is reset by long button push is a very useful information that should be permanently visible on the display.
so: these 7 figures would already be good enough for me.
casainho
10 GW
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 6,045
So many things to do... Like write documentation on wiki, since LCD3 firmware does exactly what you want, as it measures until you press the tje buttons combination to reset the value, while the other value is automatically reset at startup.andyme said:
casainho said:
ok, i went to the release notes and checked...it is misleading: it says reset the trip counter..but the trip counter resets itself at every off. so i did the short/long down press and then ODO blinked 3 times...and then it went to 0. so the feature is not reset trip counter, but reset ODO...and i do not think that this is a good idea...also i have no clue why meter should reset itself every time after off. who needs that?
so that is not what i meant....i think the whole thing should be shifted one notch up: odo should not be reset, and trip should be resettable by push of button and that should be it. no more reset to zero after every off. again: my 2 cts, but i am very strongly in favor of this.
oh..ok...i found 250/48 also elsewhere, it is actually only a matter of controller programming.Djoene said:
i think the main reason why mostly 250W is with 36V and not with 48 or 52 is that there is not really a need for higher voltage at 250W since the current will not be so high. But of course you may have a good reason to go with 48/52 so it is definitely possible. i would not doubt that the offer is ligit.
Djoene said:
i understand...on my sticker it does not say the wattage, but it does mention the voltage (48) and the amps (17)
so that would mean that your motor should read something like 48 and 5,2 A or so?..
Maybe you want to check with them what the label says if actually this is what is important to you.
and then, there is still this option...: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Pedelec-ebike-2x-motor-sticker-250w-legal-for-28-wheel-Bafang-BMC-MAC-Bosch-/163018522848
:lol:
andyme said:
I agree with all of the above, especially the trip meter that doesn't reset until I decide, instead of each on/off cycle.
I mocked up what I would like the 850c to look like
Here is the Google draw link if you want to modify, edit, copy it. https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1oTKJwZcmlooldzGWEXHFoa23Xp7zOFro0tIsH8Nu1hg/edit
Urg I forgot cadence ... maybe swap human power for cadence?
Second attempt. Better I think, no idea how hard to draw on the 850!
Google draw link https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1CVur2Hj8rEea9Njim40Bx1K1Axz4Ejz6SgTpHkwB0vs/edit?usp=sharing
Cheers
troebi
10 mW
Thank you casainho. I'd prefer the color display, too.
But as andyme wrote, the trip computer functionality is also a prior feature for me and for other useres.
I know that software development is a business that takes much time - and in his leisure time!
Shall we spend some coffees via paypal to casainho(at)gmail.com
But as andyme wrote, the trip computer functionality is also a prior feature for me and for other useres.
I know that software development is a business that takes much time - and in his leisure time!
Shall we spend some coffees via paypal to casainho(at)gmail.com
troebi said:Thank you casainho. I'd prefer the color display, too.
But as andyme wrote, the trip computer functionality is also a prior feature for me and for other useres.
I know that software development is a business that takes much time - and in his leisure time!
Shall we spend some coffees via paypal to casainho(at)gmail.com
i already donated a warm meal
casainho said:
@casainho, awesome work on the 850C. This is very exciting. I really like what mctubster did on his second attempt. I would only add that the ability to cycle through some of the cool features in the lower part of the display would make it perfect. A short single press on the power button is typical for the 850C to cycle through different fields. Also with the bright white background of a color display it really needs a night mode when you turn on the headlight. Without a night version of the display graphic, it really blinds you. Here is a sample of an 850C night mode for a Bafang setup.
The only change I would make to mctubster's drawing is perhaps using black with red accents - really pops on an 850c display. Otherwise, I really like this one.
casainho
10 GW
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 6,045
I was doing a review of an article someone is writing for a famous DIY bicycle website. I had to wrote a lot of things about our OpenSource firmwares and I decided to share here because it has some good details, because there are so much details that I think is difficult for some users to understand. Here are my notes:
---
"There are only a few companies that will sell a TS kit (Lingbei, Xofo, etc), and the TSDZ2 is not only the most available, it is also the most popular." AND THE MOST CHEAP!!!
Like KT motor controllers, that are very cheap, like 20 euros for the cheapest controller, TSDZ2 motor is the most cheap motor, INCLUDING the all parts!! See that for instance a TSDZ2 motor controller costs only 30 euro while Bafang motor controller costs like 150 euro!!!
For me as a developer and as an user philosophy, I want parts cheap and easy to repair products, that is a question about being green/good for environment.
Temperature sensor is OpenSource firmware only
When you talk about the temperature sensor, you must first talk about the OpenSource firmware because we did develop it on our firmware as the original firmware does not support any motor temperature sensor!!
I believe that what cuts off the motor power on the original firmware, are the hall sensors because they get to hot first, since they are very near the motor coils (and the part that get's hot faster as seen on the burned motor picture). The issue is that I think the hall sensors cut at like 125 degrees and the motor will get demagnetized slowly and the motor looses torque forever but user can't see that happening....... so user will get a damaged motor without knowing why it is getting weak.
Our OpenSource firmware adds A LOT of value to this motor, I will use a list to point some features of our firmware:
FOC: I implemented FOC on our firmware (is what the implementation possible on the very resources limited STM8 chip). The result is that users do report that motor has higher torque and heir batteries has higher trip range!! -- I guess the original firmware does no implement FOC.
Feedback from experienced users:
- the TSDZ2 now feels more like the Bosch motor
- the motor is more efficient, stronger, it's feel like I have a new motor
- the bike feels very responsive and is very fast and agile whenever you need it to
- this is GOLD. I still have a smile on my face
Much better LCDs: KT-LCD3 and Bafang Color LCD
The original firmware and LCD are very limited, like they don't show to user the battery volts, motor power!! There are no way to know battery volts using original firmware which is really sad!!
As you know and think you really need to talk on the article, OpenSource firmware as also developed to KT-LCD3 and Bafang Color LCD (although this is on early development stage but I use it already on my bicycle). On this LCDs we show to user all the system information variables like battery voltage AND EVEN users can setup things like BATTERY number of cells/voltage, battery low voltage cut-off (original firmware seems to have a fixed high value so users were reporting batteries were not being fully discharged/getting max range), max current, etc.
You see, you can configure in real time the system, on the field, without any PC or such. You can simple switch batteries while riding on long trip and exchange differing batteries packs voltages, etc. I do this myself!!
Video of Bafang Color LCD, running our OpenSource firmware and TSDZ2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eZXLgWD96o
24V up to 52V battery (7S up to 14S)
Original firmware does not support 24V batteries and users are locked to use only 36, 48 or 52 volts and if they want to upgrade their batteries, they need to buy a different TSDZ2 configured to that battery.
With our firmware, users can choose to use a battery from 7 cells up to 14 cells, it can be any number on that interval!! And they can choose on the LCD, very fast and in real time.
There is at least one user using a 24V battery, because want to use very small battery and have small and light bicycle to go ride to work.
No limit to speed and higher cadence
There is no speed limit with our firmware while on original firmware is 45km/h. But yes, users can setup a speed limit, I use it for my young kid bicycle because of safety reasons.
We also implemented "off road mode", so users can remove the power and speed limits when going to trails while keep using legal limits on the street.
There is an experimental option that increases the motor cadence, as users reported that is max out at near 90 RPM. I think it can go up to about 110 RPM.
Max current and max power control on LCD
Unlike on original firmware, on our firmware users can configure the max current on LCD.
Also, we implemented max power control (yes, original firmware do not has such feature) so as battery voltage goes low, the user keeps getting the same amount of power assist from the motor! I use this a lot on trails!! instead of change assist level, I quick change to max power control mode where LCD up/down buttons increase/decrease the max power.... when I am on the trails, I do prefer to setup the amount of power motor assist me and I do it very quickly the way we implemented, as fixed predefined assist levels are no good.
Current ramp
We implemented a current ramp and the ramp step can be configured (not on LCD yet) and users can change the ramp step and I believe this can help to improve the life of the plastic gears, etc. Users can decide to have a very fast torque response from the motor or a lower one to improve the life of the motor parts, or maybe the battery current ramp, or for safety reasons having low torque, etc.
Battery SOC current counter
We implemented a battery SOC based on current sum. It resets automatically everytime the system starts up and the battery is charged (yes, you can setup this reset voltage value on LCD, so users can opt to charge their batteries to 4.1V as you suggest on the article!!).
Users can setup on LCD the amount of watts hour of the battery pack, meaning it is easy to swap to different batteries while for instance on a long trip.
About battery SOC, we also show the SOC based on battery voltage and user can configure the battery pack resistance on LCD, so SOC is much more stable and correct when voltage drops while riding.
Assist levels as humam power factor
We show on LCD the amount of human power the rider is doing on the pedals (in Watts, calculated using pedal torque sensor value and cadence) and it is really nice to see in real time the motor power and the rider power, so user can compare itself over time.
We also show the amount of force in Nm user does on pedals.
And also user can change to use from 1 to 9 assist levels and configure each assist level factor, all on LCD. You see, original firmware has fixed values that no one can configure...
And also very important, the assist levels are factor of rider pedal human power!! This mean you can for instance setup a factor of 1.0 and see on LCD that you are getting assistance of the motor in the same amount you are doing on the pedals.
You see, this is very flexible when we need to use TSDZ2 on an ebike for say kids, disable people or the average riders.
Power boost
Because at startup cadence is zero, calculated human power is zero. Also it is good to have a boost at startup (some users do not like it so they simple disable this feature on LCD).
We implemented a power boost for startup (everytime user starts pedaling or just when ebike starts - wheel speed is 0). You can configure a specific factor of assist level during power boost (uses torque sensor signal only, meaning users still have control with the pedals. You also configure the time duration of the power boost. At the end of power boost, the power fades out linearly to the regular power/assist level and user can also configure the time duration of the fade out transition.
As you can see, we did develop advanced features that are usually present on expensive motor and big brands only. Also this features configurations are locked, only the manufacture can change them but we are users so we developed in a way we can change them, so we can take out the most possible value of this motors!!
Our OpenSource firmware is not just about the firmware itself, is also about learning and sharing knowledge about the motor and battery technology as it is strategic, for me, so we get a better world (less pollution, less cars) and more health and fit people.
---
"There are only a few companies that will sell a TS kit (Lingbei, Xofo, etc), and the TSDZ2 is not only the most available, it is also the most popular." AND THE MOST CHEAP!!!
Like KT motor controllers, that are very cheap, like 20 euros for the cheapest controller, TSDZ2 motor is the most cheap motor, INCLUDING the all parts!! See that for instance a TSDZ2 motor controller costs only 30 euro while Bafang motor controller costs like 150 euro!!!
For me as a developer and as an user philosophy, I want parts cheap and easy to repair products, that is a question about being green/good for environment.
Temperature sensor is OpenSource firmware only
When you talk about the temperature sensor, you must first talk about the OpenSource firmware because we did develop it on our firmware as the original firmware does not support any motor temperature sensor!!
I believe that what cuts off the motor power on the original firmware, are the hall sensors because they get to hot first, since they are very near the motor coils (and the part that get's hot faster as seen on the burned motor picture). The issue is that I think the hall sensors cut at like 125 degrees and the motor will get demagnetized slowly and the motor looses torque forever but user can't see that happening....... so user will get a damaged motor without knowing why it is getting weak.
Our OpenSource firmware adds A LOT of value to this motor, I will use a list to point some features of our firmware:
FOC: I implemented FOC on our firmware (is what the implementation possible on the very resources limited STM8 chip). The result is that users do report that motor has higher torque and heir batteries has higher trip range!! -- I guess the original firmware does no implement FOC.
Feedback from experienced users:
- the TSDZ2 now feels more like the Bosch motor
- the motor is more efficient, stronger, it's feel like I have a new motor
- the bike feels very responsive and is very fast and agile whenever you need it to
- this is GOLD. I still have a smile on my face
Much better LCDs: KT-LCD3 and Bafang Color LCD
The original firmware and LCD are very limited, like they don't show to user the battery volts, motor power!! There are no way to know battery volts using original firmware which is really sad!!
As you know and think you really need to talk on the article, OpenSource firmware as also developed to KT-LCD3 and Bafang Color LCD (although this is on early development stage but I use it already on my bicycle). On this LCDs we show to user all the system information variables like battery voltage AND EVEN users can setup things like BATTERY number of cells/voltage, battery low voltage cut-off (original firmware seems to have a fixed high value so users were reporting batteries were not being fully discharged/getting max range), max current, etc.
You see, you can configure in real time the system, on the field, without any PC or such. You can simple switch batteries while riding on long trip and exchange differing batteries packs voltages, etc. I do this myself!!
Video of Bafang Color LCD, running our OpenSource firmware and TSDZ2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eZXLgWD96o
24V up to 52V battery (7S up to 14S)
Original firmware does not support 24V batteries and users are locked to use only 36, 48 or 52 volts and if they want to upgrade their batteries, they need to buy a different TSDZ2 configured to that battery.
With our firmware, users can choose to use a battery from 7 cells up to 14 cells, it can be any number on that interval!! And they can choose on the LCD, very fast and in real time.
There is at least one user using a 24V battery, because want to use very small battery and have small and light bicycle to go ride to work.
No limit to speed and higher cadence
There is no speed limit with our firmware while on original firmware is 45km/h. But yes, users can setup a speed limit, I use it for my young kid bicycle because of safety reasons.
We also implemented "off road mode", so users can remove the power and speed limits when going to trails while keep using legal limits on the street.
There is an experimental option that increases the motor cadence, as users reported that is max out at near 90 RPM. I think it can go up to about 110 RPM.
Max current and max power control on LCD
Unlike on original firmware, on our firmware users can configure the max current on LCD.
Also, we implemented max power control (yes, original firmware do not has such feature) so as battery voltage goes low, the user keeps getting the same amount of power assist from the motor! I use this a lot on trails!! instead of change assist level, I quick change to max power control mode where LCD up/down buttons increase/decrease the max power.... when I am on the trails, I do prefer to setup the amount of power motor assist me and I do it very quickly the way we implemented, as fixed predefined assist levels are no good.
Current ramp
We implemented a current ramp and the ramp step can be configured (not on LCD yet) and users can change the ramp step and I believe this can help to improve the life of the plastic gears, etc. Users can decide to have a very fast torque response from the motor or a lower one to improve the life of the motor parts, or maybe the battery current ramp, or for safety reasons having low torque, etc.
Battery SOC current counter
We implemented a battery SOC based on current sum. It resets automatically everytime the system starts up and the battery is charged (yes, you can setup this reset voltage value on LCD, so users can opt to charge their batteries to 4.1V as you suggest on the article!!).
Users can setup on LCD the amount of watts hour of the battery pack, meaning it is easy to swap to different batteries while for instance on a long trip.
About battery SOC, we also show the SOC based on battery voltage and user can configure the battery pack resistance on LCD, so SOC is much more stable and correct when voltage drops while riding.
Assist levels as humam power factor
We show on LCD the amount of human power the rider is doing on the pedals (in Watts, calculated using pedal torque sensor value and cadence) and it is really nice to see in real time the motor power and the rider power, so user can compare itself over time.
We also show the amount of force in Nm user does on pedals.
And also user can change to use from 1 to 9 assist levels and configure each assist level factor, all on LCD. You see, original firmware has fixed values that no one can configure...
And also very important, the assist levels are factor of rider pedal human power!! This mean you can for instance setup a factor of 1.0 and see on LCD that you are getting assistance of the motor in the same amount you are doing on the pedals.
You see, this is very flexible when we need to use TSDZ2 on an ebike for say kids, disable people or the average riders.
Power boost
Because at startup cadence is zero, calculated human power is zero. Also it is good to have a boost at startup (some users do not like it so they simple disable this feature on LCD).
We implemented a power boost for startup (everytime user starts pedaling or just when ebike starts - wheel speed is 0). You can configure a specific factor of assist level during power boost (uses torque sensor signal only, meaning users still have control with the pedals. You also configure the time duration of the power boost. At the end of power boost, the power fades out linearly to the regular power/assist level and user can also configure the time duration of the fade out transition.
As you can see, we did develop advanced features that are usually present on expensive motor and big brands only. Also this features configurations are locked, only the manufacture can change them but we are users so we developed in a way we can change them, so we can take out the most possible value of this motors!!
Our OpenSource firmware is not just about the firmware itself, is also about learning and sharing knowledge about the motor and battery technology as it is strategic, for me, so we get a better world (less pollution, less cars) and more health and fit people.
flufferty
100 mW
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2017
- Messages
- 37
So after 2 full months I have finally gotten my motor back from repair with PSWPOWER.
I had to pay for shipping to Germany, which is OK. The time taken however, is ridiculous.
It was sent in because the noise was not helped by replacing the sprag clutch gear, nor the blue gear.
The result after sending it to repair?
https://youtu.be/oEjIk2BKajg
The note included from repair say they didn't find any noise-problems.. I took it out for a spin and, well, lets just say you wont need any bicycle horn with this motor.
Short video but honestly I am too pissed off and broken down about this whole ordeal. I will actively fight anyone who even thinks about buying from "pswpower". Don't do it!
I have tried replicating the noise by hand and with motor out and blue gear in, the noise is there, so I assume its the teething between big gear and small axle gear that makes the noise?
I also tried overfilling the drive side with grease, with no difference in noise. The motor has been tried in different frames to rule out resonance/vibration.
I had to pay for shipping to Germany, which is OK. The time taken however, is ridiculous.
It was sent in because the noise was not helped by replacing the sprag clutch gear, nor the blue gear.
The result after sending it to repair?
https://youtu.be/oEjIk2BKajg
The note included from repair say they didn't find any noise-problems.. I took it out for a spin and, well, lets just say you wont need any bicycle horn with this motor.
Short video but honestly I am too pissed off and broken down about this whole ordeal. I will actively fight anyone who even thinks about buying from "pswpower". Don't do it!
I have tried replicating the noise by hand and with motor out and blue gear in, the noise is there, so I assume its the teething between big gear and small axle gear that makes the noise?
I also tried overfilling the drive side with grease, with no difference in noise. The motor has been tried in different frames to rule out resonance/vibration.
flufferty said:
Frankly: from this clip I could not tell anything.. For me the motor could very well be absolutely perfect. I am just saying what I feel. My experience: I am having many situations where I hardly notice the motor, and then there are situations where I do (mostly under heavy load). I find this totally acceptable. I think this video will not allow you to judge the real life situation. Just my 2 cts, no offense please.
I want to publicly thank ES member "casainho" for his countless hours of work in developing FREE open-source firmware for controllers from Kunteng/KT and also the TSDZ2/Tong Sheng drives.
If you have used the open-source firmware, and appreciate the benefits, please consider the option to donate a few dollars/euros to him so he will continue to provide free firmware updates
paypal to casainho (at) gmail (dot) com
If you have used the open-source firmware, and appreciate the benefits, please consider the option to donate a few dollars/euros to him so he will continue to provide free firmware updates
paypal to casainho (at) gmail (dot) com
flufferty
100 mW
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2017
- Messages
- 37
andyme said:
Yeah I can see how one would think that's ok, but I recognized it since before, so I know the noise is still shit. See my previous link for a grasp on how it sounds while biking around; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF99aYNa3WI
Basically a modern gasoline-moped-engine would be quieter.
flufferty said:
Hmmmm....I don't think it is defective...maybe there are quieter and less quite specimen...no clue..it also depends alot on the environment that you are riding in is my observationobservation. But from what I have learned here, bafang seems to be quieter..but then it is a different kind of motor...
andyme said:
I listened to your original clip - unfortunately I agree - the noise is normal. I have mine in a Cargo bike also, and the noise is similar to yours. I have learned to "love the noise" if that makes sense. It can be jarring though if riding on a quiet bike path.
I have a BBS01B, and while it is very quiet, I won't be going back because the TSDZ2 has way better cadence and power output at lower voltages, and best of all torque control and the amazing opensource firmware. The boost option for example means I do not need a throttle anymore.
Regards
MaartenL
10 mW
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2018
- Messages
- 33
I was driving in the rain the other day without problems, but today the whole system doesn't power up. I don't own yet a multimeter, but that would be something to start with tomorrow. (And learn how to operate one).
I did fully charge my battery, I do remember that the first time I connected the charger didn't work maybe but in the end it did I think.. but now when I charge the light stays green indicating a full battery. Also the 4 LEDs on the battery tell me the battery is supposed to be fully charged.
Maybe you guys have some steps I can follow to get to the problem.
I bought my kit from Future-Bike.it for my Fatbike so 120mm bottom bracket.
Display is race display (the small one next to your brake)
http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/display-race-per-motore-active-torque/
Motor
http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/motore-active-torque-fat/
Battery 48v 17.5Ah
http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/batteria-potente/
Thanks for helping out already!
I did fully charge my battery, I do remember that the first time I connected the charger didn't work maybe but in the end it did I think.. but now when I charge the light stays green indicating a full battery. Also the 4 LEDs on the battery tell me the battery is supposed to be fully charged.
Maybe you guys have some steps I can follow to get to the problem.
I bought my kit from Future-Bike.it for my Fatbike so 120mm bottom bracket.
Display is race display (the small one next to your brake)
http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/display-race-per-motore-active-torque/
Motor
http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/motore-active-torque-fat/
Battery 48v 17.5Ah
http://www.future-bike.it/shop/kit-di-trasformazione-3/batteria-potente/
Thanks for helping out already!
flufferty
100 mW
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2017
- Messages
- 37
mctubster said:
Yeah I had a bbs02 before as well, and in comparison it has no noise, it was dead quiet.
However I do have 2 TSDZ2-motors, and only this one in the videos is making this horrible grinding noise. The other one can be heard, sure, but it doesn't embarrass the driver like this one.
flufferty said:
so you see how difficult this is to judge from a recording...so what it comes down to basically is: you are convinced that this motor is not the way it should be and the company who sold it to you did not repair it correctly and therefore you warn people to buy from them. ok.
