Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

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Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 07 2018 6:06pm

Yup.. the local libertarian enclave here in Utah ( libertas institute ), after many years, managed to get a citizens petition on the ballot, and it won by a freaking hair.. 53% in favor.

Cue law enforcement whining about it, and silly stories like these.. ( even though we have a serious opioid epidemic )
https://www.ksl.com/article/46440688/me ... f-drug-k-9

Nonetheless, it's a thing. The last bastions of resistance are falling.. i think cannabis prohibition only has a few years left in it.. it might even get legalized at the federal level now that Jeff Sessions is gone.

It's kinda amazing.

We still haven't legalized Tesla direct sales here yet, but i guess that's a topic for another thread innit.. :lol:
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by Dauntless » Dec 08 2018 9:38pm

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/07/health/s ... index.html

How much water do you use growing this stuff?
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by rumme » Dec 09 2018 10:38am

Glad to hear it...I dont engage in doing it and dont even drink alcohol , but I dont think the govt has a right to criminalize something like allowing a person to smoke pot , especially when its a alternative for pain management and healing sickness.

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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by Dauntless » Dec 09 2018 4:43pm

Not even when the users create problems for others and just don't care? How would you handle the problem?

To China, the solution to their opium problem was to kill them with kindness. The government left it a little enforced crime but imposed taxes as they were broke, they let people pretend opium was soooooo goooooood for them as it destroyed them. When the scatty manager was so addicted he claimed he could only focus on his work when he was high, you're saying it's only right to let him have it, eh?

So in the palace the staff got less and less done; they were smoking opium. The ships carrying it we're increasingly heavily armed and fighting battles with the opium pirates. The caravans on land needed to be similarly armed as the bandits knew the easiest and safest thing to sell would be the opium. Like "Legal" marijuana in the U.S., the opium was illegal but allowed. Enforcement not only dropped off as the "Entitled" public literally beat officials into submission, even the convicted faced ever shrinking consequences. Especially the foreigners bringing it in.

And of course the insistence that anything done to try to fix the problem the government had no right to do, would only make it worse, was so morally wrong and anyone who is a victim in this environment has no rights whatsoever.

But you recognize all that from what's happening here. You do realize all this in China was the beginning of one period called 'The Opium Wars,' leading to another called 'The Century of Humiliations. . . .'

Oh yeah, we should let the marijuana world hold us hostage. . . .
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 09 2018 6:37pm

Opium and cannabis are two distinctly different critters. Absolutely no comparison.

My biggest bitch about legalization is the continued lack of sources for "medical" grade. Which in many places is highest THC rather than higher CBD. Legalization rode on the back of the medicinal movement, only to forget to cater to those wanting an alternative to opioids. MN has medical but many doctors want their patients to cold turkey opioids when the idea is to use the cannabis to reduce opioid use. Ask the wrong DR for an Rx and one might be labeled chemically dependent. Many still believe in the gateway theory.

As to Utah, the religulous have some pretty crazy ideas there. That church-state is schizophrenic.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 09 2018 7:49pm

Dauntless wrote:
Dec 09 2018 4:43pm
Not even when the users create problems for others and just don't care? How would you handle the problem?
Inconsiderate people are just a fact of life. You'll find them all over. Here in Utah, there's a law against texting and driving, but it's never enforced. So texting and driving kills way more people than drunk driving here. Seriously.
And you're absolutely skewered if you've had more than 2 beers and get in a car.

So do you ban cell phones? or alcohol? would that be better? or just enforce the law, and pull someone over driving erratically? i say pull someone over for driving erratically, because anything that is black market will have criminal externalities associated with it.

Strangely, teen cannabis use has gone down in Colorado since legalization. There have also been a variety of other positive effects related to the criminal justice system. So the opposite of what prohibitionists feared happened. Just like with alcohol.

Also, you cannot compare opiates ( one of the most physically addictive drug classes ) to cannabis. I spent 7 years in 12 step groups recovering from crack addiction. Cannabis users nearly didn't belong in the room at all. The opiate users? we went to their funerals when they relapsed. Or visited them in prison for all sorts of related crimes after they relapsed. You simply cannot compare the two.

And as for productivity, i know many people who are extremely productive who use cannabis. None of them smoke the dopey indica stuff.

It's time for these outdated reefer madness stereotypes to go.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 09 2018 7:56pm

tomjasz wrote:
Dec 09 2018 6:37pm
My biggest bitch about legalization is the continued lack of sources for "medical" grade. Which in many places is highest THC rather than higher CBD. Legalization rode on the back of the medicinal movement, only to forget to cater to those wanting an alternative to opioids. MN has medical but many doctors want their patients to cold turkey opioids when the idea is to use the cannabis to reduce opioid use. Ask the wrong DR for an Rx and one might be labeled chemically dependent. Many still believe in the gateway theory.
That's unfortunate. Our law provides legal protection if you get some stuff from out of state, so you could just pop over to Colorado or Nevada and get what you need.

High CBD strain cannabis available, but you'd have to shop around because yes, most people want the THC.. on the west coast, there are cannabis shops that specialize in the medical grade stuff, which is pretty amazing to me.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by Dauntless » Dec 09 2018 9:34pm

Yes you can compare opiates and cannibis, the results are much the same. And opium is in fact mild compared to the opiates prescribed in the U.S., heroin, etc. Primarily smoked, it was mostly wasted as compared to effective methods of injesting. Literally the Chinese we're suffering effects close to smoking marijuana.

You cannot dismiss as 'Inconsiderate' any more from marijuana as from alcohol or other drugs. If it induces problems it induces problems. At it does, I endured much from family members when they were limiting themselves to pot. Ugly stuff.

It's possible to operate a car or a cellphone without problems, it's CHOICES that need to be punished to prevent them from hurting others. You don't get to pick some and say you're okay with it.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 2:54pm

Dauntless wrote:
Dec 09 2018 9:34pm
It's possible to operate a car or a cellphone without problems, it's CHOICES that need to be punished to prevent them from hurting others. You don't get to pick some and say you're okay with it.
Okay, so we should ban cellphones and alcohol and cannabis.. and maybe take it a step further and ban cigarettes, a good swath of prescription drugs, etc. Because pick and choose is not acceptable..

It is very possible to drive a car under the influence of cannabis without incident. My dad has done so for around 50 years now. Yes, i was driven around my entire childhood by that reckless man :lol: The only car crashes in my immediate family have happened to the female drivers, who were completely sober at the time.

But we're going to lump every individual into a big category, so for consistency, we add 'being a female' to that list of dangerous things to ban, in addition to those dang stoners who are an absolute terror on our roads, yes?
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 3:03pm

Dauntless wrote:
Dec 09 2018 9:34pm
Literally the Chinese we're suffering effects close to smoking marijuana.
Not even.

Some cannabis makes you giggly. Some cannabis makes you tired. Some cannabis just relieves pain. Some cannabis is actually energizing. All due to the wild variations in terpene and cannabinoid content across different strains.

Opium dens had/have places where you can lie down where you smoke, because passing out is a common occurrence. Not so much of this at the cannabis cafes around the world.
Go to any 12 step meeting and you'll hear stories of opioid users who did drastic criminal acts so that they could keep withdrawal at bay. You will never hear such a story about cannabis. At least, i didn't, over the course of 7 years.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by fechter » Dec 10 2018 4:20pm

Wahoo! It's about time.
I lived there through the '70s and was always afraid of getting busted. I'm still pretty discrete about it even though it's legal here. Old habits die hard. Somehow I bet the LDS church will make money off it. Way back when, Coca Cola was "forbidden" for the true believers, but at some point Mormons bought out the local Coca Cola bottling plant and it suddenly became OK to drink Coke.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by billvon » Dec 10 2018 5:12pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 2:54pm
It is very possible to drive a car under the influence of cannabis without incident. My dad has done so for around 50 years now. Yes, i was driven around my entire childhood by that reckless man :lol: The only car crashes in my immediate family have happened to the female drivers, who were completely sober at the time.
Sure is. And it's possible to drive safely while drunk, and fly a plane while drunk. I've known people who regularly did both. One got the shakes if he _didn't_ drink regularly, and often asked "you don't want me to get the shakes while I'm driving, do you?"

But since drunk drivers kill a lot of people, we have laws against it. They're not perfect (i.e. my friend and your dad might be exceptions) but they are definitely better than nothing.

It's a pretty basic rule in my mind. You have every right to risk your own health doing something stupid. You do not have the right to risk anyone else's.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 5:43pm

Yeah the mormons run the same game with alcohol. They have a monopoly on sales, and it's all for their own gain. I say 'the mormons' because the church literally controls 95% of aspects of government here, which is a rounding error to 100%.

Our medical program is very weak and verrryyy over-regulated. But our governor of 42 freakin' years had a botched eye surgery recently and is finally hanging up his hat next year. Maybe things will change over time with the influx of people from out of state starting to out-vote the mormon mafia.

I'm kinda hopeful for it, because i really love this piece of geography. But like with California, some people have spoiled the place in their own way.

I would like to live here somewhere between the transition from mormon conservatism to liberalism... where i can have guns, weed, decent real estate prices, low taxes, less pollution, and reasonable regulations on enterprise.

Ah, a boy can dream :mrgreen:
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 5:57pm

billvon wrote:
Dec 10 2018 5:12pm
But since drunk drivers kill a lot of people, we have laws against it. They're not perfect (i.e. my friend and your dad might be exceptions) but they are definitely better than nothing.

It's a pretty basic rule in my mind. You have every right to risk your own health doing something stupid. You do not have the right to risk anyone else's.
I think the libertarians would agree with you on that one, and i would too; although you still need to consider the individual and hopefully wrap up less dolphins in the tuna net that way.

One idea i've heard that really appealed to me is this:
Make dashcams mandatory and allow the driver to submit clips of someone driving poorly to the government. Enough flags on one person, and they get followed a few times and pulled over if caught in the act, or if a report was really bad, then the highway patrol comes straight out to find the person and investigate while the person is

Upsides:
1) The roads will be a hell of a lot safer, which is what people want.
2) Edge cases like the alcoholic you mentioned or my dad are now safe against unfair prosecution.
3) You can enjoy lower taxes because it will no longer be required to have as many cops just hang out on highways all day.
4) Drug laws can be more lax because a drug addict has a much lower chance of causing mayhem in an automobile.

Downsides:
1) If you're a shitty driver, whether it be because texting, perscription pills, drunken-ness, etc.. now you have people ratting you out.
2) There's no escape from this sort of citizen-powered surveillance state. There's no more 'risking it' and getting away with it, unless you're out at like 3am..

But.. regardless, cannabis + driving aren't going away. People still do it even though it's illegal. People already smoke cannabis where it's illegal. The best a government can do is figure out the best damage control.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 10 2018 6:22pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 5:43pm
Yeah, the Mormons run the same game with alcohol. They have a monopoly on sales, and it's all for their own gain. I say 'the Mormons' because the church literally controls 95% of aspects of government here, which is a rounding error to 100%.

Our medical program is very weak and verrryyy over-regulated. But our governor of 42 freakin' years had a botched eye surgery recently and is finally hanging up his hat next year. Maybe things will change over time with the influx of people from out of state starting to out-vote the Mormon mafia.

I'm kinda hoping for it because I really love this piece of geography. But like with California, some people have spoiled the place in their own way.

I would like to live here somewhere between the transition from Mormon conservatism to liberalism... where i can have guns, weed, decent real estate prices, low taxes, less pollution, and reasonable regulations on an enterprise.

Ah, a boy can dream :mrgreen:
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 10 2018 6:25pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 5:57pm


One idea i've heard that really appealed to me is this:
Make dashcams mandatory and allow the driver to submit clips of someone driving poorly to the government. Enough flags on one person, and they get followed a few times and pulled over if caught in the act, or if a report was really bad, then the highway patrol comes straight out to find the person and investigate while the person is

Hmmmm so karma ratings for drivers, but not forums. What's to keep drivers from targeting others?
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by billvon » Dec 10 2018 6:35pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 5:57pm
Make dashcams mandatory and allow the driver to submit clips of someone driving poorly to the government. Enough flags on one person, and they get followed a few times and pulled over if caught in the act, or if a report was really bad, then the highway patrol comes straight out to find the person and investigate while the person is
That would work provided that impaired drivers present as weaving, driving erratically etc. I would be worried that a "well trained" alcoholic could drive straight, but have abysmal judgment and reaction times - and you might not see that until the kid is in front of his car. That was my worry with one of the aforementioned friends. He was drunk so often that he was actually a fairly good drunk driver, and he was immune to being arrested (he was a New York City cop) - but if the sh!t hit the fan, could he react normally?
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 6:38pm

tomjasz wrote:
Dec 10 2018 6:25pm
Hmm so karma ratings for drivers, but not forums. What's to keep drivers from targeting others?
Well, there'd have to be some kind of punishment for abusing the system.. sorta like for what happens to those who prank call 911.

For this same reason, you'd want the cop to catch someone in the act, because video forgery is a thing these days.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 6:47pm

billvon wrote:
Dec 10 2018 6:35pm
I would be worried that a "well trained" alcoholic could drive straight, but have abysmal judgment and reaction times - and you might not see that until the kid is in front of his car. That was my worry with one of the aforementioned friends. He was drunk so often that he was actually a fairly good drunk driver, and he was immune to being arrested (he was a New York City cop) - but if the sh!t hit the fan, could he react normally?
Ah, that's a problem with our current system too. That's hard to find an answer for.
With newer cars having infotainment systems, and everyone having a cell phone, a distracted driver is actually worse than the drunk driver, because even though they have a faster reaction time, they don't see the thing.

If we can allow people to have distracting devices inside their car, certainly we can handle a few more stoned drivers. Although if the ending of cannabis prohibition has the same result as with alcohol prediction, we may see LESS people driving under the influence, as cannabis loses it's edgy mystique to the youth..
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by rumme » Dec 10 2018 9:34pm

A female bartender at our local lodge, has 3 DWI . They took her license but she still drives her boyfriends vehicle, even when she is plastered. I had a friend killed by a drunk driver. I will not defend them and their addiction especially when it clearly results in the death of innocent others. I believe alcohol is way more destructive then marijuana and doubt that pot smokers are as a dangerous on the road, as drunks.

The 1 thing I question about legalizing pot, is how it may hurt business owners who really need employees who are not " high" on the job, or taking a quick puff, while on lunch break. Ive had friends who smoke it, and it often affects their mood and attitude, so they become less efficient at accomplishing tasks/ jobs. If I were a business owner, I probably would not want to have a group of employees who were regular users, and were likely to engage in smoking it, before they came to work, or during their shift.

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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 9:41pm

rumme wrote:
Dec 10 2018 9:34pm
I think the 1 thing I question about legalizing pot, is how it may hurt business owners who really need employees who are not " high" on the job, or taking a quick puff, while on lunch break.
Well, if you're drunk on the job, you can be sent home or fired. Same goes for cannabis.
I don't see why it'd be any different.

A lot of people work mildly stoned or buzzed. There are liability exemptions to this though. Say, someone slips and falls? you have them do a pee test and use that as ammunition.

Unfortunately since cannabis hangs out in your system for up to 45 days, this really screws over the cannabis user that just has a few puffs at night or uses it medicinally. Maybe it's possible to come up with a better test.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by rumme » Dec 10 2018 9:52pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 9:41pm
rumme wrote:
Dec 10 2018 9:34pm
I think the 1 thing I question about legalizing pot, is how it may hurt business owners who really need employees who are not " high" on the job, or taking a quick puff, while on lunch break.
Unfortunately since cannabis hangs out in your system for up to 45 days, this really screws over the cannabis user that just has a few puffs at night or uses it medicinally. Maybe it's possible to come up with a better test.
Exactly. The current piss tests, are not gonna be good enough for business owners to be applied to their employees.

There will be obstacles with this. For example, the pot smoker who takes a puff at 7 a.m., then has to be at work at 9 a.m. He smoked on his own time, but the effects will still linger while he is at the workplace.

If I were a business owner, this would be worrisome to me.

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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by billvon » Dec 10 2018 10:40pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 6:47pm
If we can allow people to have distracting devices inside their car, certainly we can handle a few more stoned drivers. . . .
Except distracted driving is illegal in most places, too. Here in CA, for example, it's illegal to use a handheld cellphone while driving, and illegal to text or surf (basically anything other than talk or listen to music) while driving. Adding one other thing to impair drivers because there are other things that impair drivers doesn't seem like a good strategy.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by neptronix » Dec 11 2018 11:38am

billvon wrote:
Dec 10 2018 10:40pm
Adding one other thing to impair drivers because there are other things that impair drivers doesn't seem like a good strategy.
That's the thing. You're not adding anything. Cannabis is already widely used and there are tons of people driving under the influence of it across the globe. Cannabis usage is almost as common as alcohol usage, and alcohol is a far worse substance to be driving under the influence of. Alcohol's effects on a motorist are worse, even at moderate inebriation levels. ( this is well studied, by the way )

It is, and will continue to be illegal to drive under the influence of any inebriant.

Legalizing it does exactly what abolishing prohibition does. It vastly reduces crime associated with the black market trade of said substance. Because of this, the use of said substance results in a safer society and less of a drain on taxpayer resources.

What legalization does add is a market for medicinal cannabis strains which are not lucrative enough to be sold on the black market. It opens the gate to at least a dozen legitimate medical applications by making cannabis a white market good. Medicinal cannabis does not make one goofy or drowsy. It has less side effects than many pharmaceutical drugs for said conditions.

This may actually have the unintended consequence of creating safer roads as people switch their horrible pharmaceuticals out for less harmful ( or let's say completely harmless ) medical cannabis strains.
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Re: Even the mormon capital of the USA has legalized medicinal cannabis..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 11 2018 3:03pm

A very close acquaintance runs a carbon fiber manufacturing plant. He's had to remove cannabis from the forbidden drugs found in drug tests. Either accept that employees smoke pot or continue the struggle to find qualified employees. MN has only a joke of a medical program. Very difficult to access and expensive.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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