Stop Geoengineering Chemtrails

Voltron said:
Thats one of the more self grandiose statements I've ever seen written... once one starts comparing ones self to a god swatting flies, a professional mental health is usually in order.
He's a legend in his own mind.
 
Health is a form of wealth. So is a good support network of peers or family. Most people who are financially successful in this world have both.

Even a person of average intellect is often more successful than a wildly intelligent person who is socially alienated and/or hobbled by health issues which sap energy. Both factors create depression.

Someone with monetary wealth has the option to NOT live in a place with a shit ton of pollution and eat good food and eliminate the health problem to a degree. A poor person does not have that opportunity. They cannot afford 2 times the rent / property tax and 3 times the food cost.

Communities living in poverty do not create good support networks either. These are mentally depressed communities and you can find lots of abusers, addicts, shut ins, people on welfare, etc in them. Not exactly the best place to find talented people to work with or build a career in. And of course, a lot of these people are eating junk food, and you won't find a hippie mart selling health promoting foods, unless it's nearly expired..

So money does matter. So does health. So does people.

It is easier to build up a wad of cash and leave a poverty/pollution/bad people community for the sake of your mental and physical health than it is to try to thrive in one. I left my poverty community 15 years ago after working 2 menial jobs for 5 years to build the escape fund. My wife did the same thing. We both look back to how people are doing in our hometowns with great sadness and want to lift the others out of the rut, but most can't see the light.

We both live in Utah which is a hellhole for pollution issues, but full of good people and lots of opportunity. 2 out of 3 elements is a step up from where we came from! We are building up capital, even though health issues coming from pollution really get in the way for both of us. In about a decade, we should be able to move to an area with low opportunities, but high quality people and high quality environment. Such a place may be in a foreign country... or maybe it is amongst the yuppies at 8,000 feet in Colorado or New Mexico.

Good health is critical to these kinds of attempts. If didn't start going to the gym and eating a diet that defeats my type 2 diabetes, constant chest pains, and onerous weight gain, i'd be stuck in depression again, wondering how much longer i'd be alive, rather than planning for the future and building cool things.

My wife has a similar story. She has multiple diseases which were solved by nutritional intervention, which came out of tons of experiments and research on our part. This lead to a more successful career due to an improved attitude about life.


So yeah, you can complain about environmental issues, political issues, social issues etc until you are blue in the face, but you have the opposition of a lot of people stuck in their own ways or locked in via circumstance. It is much better, and more effective to take your own road than try to patch up a sinking ship someone put holes in.

Don't worry about chemtrails or chemicals making the frogs gay or how Trump is a fascist or blablablabla; get to work on the part of your life you have control over. Most of that shit is just a diversion to keep you wallowing in your own self pity.
 
neptronix said:
Don't worry about chemtrails or chemicals making the frogs gay or how Trump is a fascist or blablablabla; get to work on the part of your life you have control over. Most of that shit is just a diversion to keep you wallowing in your own self pity.


Well put...

:bigthumb:
 
billvon said:
He's a legend in his own mind.

Dude, you gotta do better than all that tiny pipsq-weakling if you want me to notice you. Otherwise you won't get---(SWAT)!

neptronix said:
Health is a form of wealth. .. .So money does matter. So does health. So does people. . .2 out of 3 elements is a step up from where we came from!

So if you wanted to create an acronym for 'We Are Right,' that would be. . . .

Such as back in 2016, when a presidential candidate and her VP choice are on the stand as she laughs and says "We're going to end a LOT of coal mining jobs." The audience was career coal miners in West Virginia, many already unemployed. Boy did SHE get upset when they shut her out. "I had more to SAY."

Rhetoric works great, rhetorically speaking. On a more practical level these so-called solutions generally involve some people sacrificing everything while the 'Solvers' sit there comfy cozy.

When less of southern California air pollution comes from California and more drifts across the ocean from China, further crackdown in California isn't just unfair, it's ignorant. But those with the rhetoric have more to say.

I had a girlfriend in college from West Virginia. Her parents sent her to unspectacular Cal State to get her out of WV. Polls there show most don't believe they'll ever have a full-time job. But somebody has financial backers who want the poor people and their jobs gone. Unemployment is high, getting out is Okie style, load what you can in an old pickup and see if you ever have a home again.When the big talk ends, real life begins.

When I'm stuck listening to those who did NOT start earning money in grade school to support the divorced drug addict older sisters with kids, did NOT work to put themselves through college and support family members at the same time, did NOT (Insert effort not made) and yet they call others like myself PRIVILEGED, I'm reminded once again how the people with the rhetoric of course have more to say. It's time to offer something instead.

So it would be nice if instead of all this rhetoric somebody would actually put something on the table. Here, I'll just flick Bill out of the way.

(Squeak.)

Oh shut up, you brought this on yourself.
 
There are so many problems in this world that the only way to be happy is to be a solver... or bury your head really far into the sand.

The biggest and cruelest joke here in the United States is that you could vote for someone and somehow 1 of our 1,000,000 various different problems ( many of them actually created by our government ) will get solved. These politicians SOUND like solvers, but look at their track records - it's pretty bad.

There are some small differences between these fantasy football teams, err, i mean political parties; but people get whooped up in a frenzy over it because they have an impression that voting is their way to get things done. People who vote for the winning team get defensive or have a tendency to overlook the flaws of their party/person because they "invested" in a chance to put them in a seat of power. The losing side does the opposite and only looks at the flaws of the political winner, never acknowledging what small positives come from that choice. Cognitive bias run amok..

The truth is that making change is not that easy, and never was. You have to be a solver. You gotta go out there and get some shit done, or get away from some shit. The least effective option is to complain, or shall we say.. "protest" to try to gain awareness about issue X, which is ultimately an attempt to inspire someone else to be a solver, rather than get the thing done yourself.

https://kfor.com/2018/10/16/this-floating-pipe-is-trying-to-clean-up-all-the-plastic-in-the-ocean/

^-- this is what a real solver looks like. Young dude raised a bazillion dollars to clean up plastic in the ocean. Will he be successful? we don't know yet. A lot of people want to criticize or praise him, but nobody else has the balls to slip on his shoes.
Despite the emotional rollercoaster he's probably been going through, he probably feels good about what he's doing, and may very well find ultimate meaning and happiness in this world. We need more people in the world like this.

China's pollution is our pollution. Look at how many cheap doodads a typical American buys from China and doesn't even think about the impact. Then we drive these giant vehicles and create a lot of smog in our own backyards. Most people put their heads into the sand about it. Other people want to blame certain companies or industries. The stark reality is that nobody wants to take a hit in the comfort that their western lifestyle provides. Our technologies that provide us creature comforts are the exact reason we have hundreds of environmental issues.

Even most supposed environmentalists think that switching from a 3,000lb gas car to a 4,000lb electric car will save the planet from catastrophe. This is a 'extra fancy' way of putting one's head in the sand. A sustainable future looks more like backyard gardens and bicycles. Only a small sliver of environmentalists understand this and are willing to live that way. This is maybe 1% of the population.

I realized long ago that i couldn't pull people's heads out of the sand. I can only clean up my side of the street and serve as an example. I have to be part of that 1%.

There is no use to being aware of a multitude of huge issues but not come up with solutions or implement them yourself. Being aware and not taking tangible action is fuel for either depression or a slave mentality.
 
Damn neptronix you are far to rational and smart for this thread. :wink: :thumb:

Funny that the link to the ocean clean up story only gives the message "Sorry, this content is not available in your region" but probably is about Boyan Slat from my country...
He had a high school project and this is the result so far :bigthumb:
 
neptronix said:
The truth is that making change is not that easy, and never was. You have to be a solver. You gotta go out there and get some shit done, or get away from some shit. The least effective option is to complain, or shall we say.. "protest" to try to gain awareness about issue X, which is ultimately an attempt to inspire someone else to be a solver, rather than get the thing done yourself.
I don't know about that. It worked for black rights, gay rights, women's right and protecting the environment. All brought about largely by people "complaining" (protesting.) Indeed, if you listen to the automotive industry around the time the CARB/EPA was created, they were claiming that all of that was impossible. If you try to make cars cleaner you will put Ford out of business. If you try to improve fuel economy everyone will have to drive sub-sub-compact death traps. It took protest, then voting, then law, before anyone "got shit done."
Even most supposed environmentalists think that switching from a 3,000lb gas car to a 4,000lb electric car will save the planet from catastrophe. This is a 'extra fancy' way of putting one's head in the sand. A sustainable future looks more like backyard gardens and bicycles. Only a small sliver of environmentalists understand this and are willing to live that way. This is maybe 1% of the population.
A backyard garden is a nice idea, but it is just another way of putting your head in the sand - to make you feel like you are making a difference. Unless you are recycling your own poo into a farm of at least a few acres, you are doing more to make yourself feel good than to reduce your footprint.

EV's make a small difference. Gardens make a small difference. Residential solar makes a small difference. Biking makes a small difference. Residential ESS make a small difference. Being vegetarian makes a small difference. Local farms make a small difference. Organic farming makes a small difference. But put them all together and you start making more of a difference.
 
Uh huh, it's easier to take the political route when you have mass consensus. In that case, a politician will take it upon themselves to put mass consensus into action for the sake of popularity.

But we're talking about things issues that don't have mass consensus or easy answers.
CARB and EPA took actions to fit internal combustion cars with emissions controls, so now instead of emitting carbon monoxide, they now emit carbon dioxide. Now we have another problem. Emissions controls bought the car and oil industry some time, and that is about it. Hurling 4000lbs of steel down the road to get groceries is still a problem and still a bad idea. And there's no concept of consensus on what to do about it.

Civil rights acts and women's rights etc have some positive impacts along with negative ones. Some minority groups are actually doing significantly worse. Other ones have improved a bit.

Gay rights is just government rolling back it's oppressive laws and no longer being part of the problem. That was easy to tackle once decades of consensus were built.

But don't count on consensus or political action. There are many more large problems left unsolved by the 'get the government to fix it' route than solved by that route.

A backyard garden eliminates a series of pollutants, transportation costs, and health issues for an individual or family. Done on a massive scale, it would eliminate a significant part of humanity's footprint. Everyone on a bike and no cars cuts our global emissions EASILY in half. The list of things you can voluntarily do to address your slice of the pie goes on and on.

Almost every major problem we have has a solution you can implement on an individual level. Government has a bad track record of doing the right thing, so doing the right thing is up to us.

Being a living example of what to do is not sticking your head into the sand at all. It's far more effective than begging people in power to force others to do as you wish.
 
Let's say Alex Jones is right and they're spraying mind control chemicals on ya from the planes in your locality.

What's most effective.. protesting chemtrails.. putting a bumper sticker on your car.. or packing your bags and leaving the area?

These options look like this:
1) Beg government to stop doing an evil thing
2) Beg other people to beg government to stop doing an evil thing
3) Actually getting away from evil thing or negating evil thing some other way.

I say do number 3 first and 1 & 2 last.

Lotta people doing number 3 forces government to do something.
Lotta people doing #1 and #2 is something government can laugh at from afar.

Lemme give you an example relevant to my life.

52e51e2560de5.image.jpg

Here's some well intentioned people waving signs at a government that's got significant amount of money in the back pocket from big oil. This happens multiple times a year and has been going on for decades. Meanwhile, the state has not been compliant with the clean air act for many years. 90% of the population lives in a non compliance zone.

Of course, the parking lot at this capital is full of cars that the protesters have used to drive there with, and car emissions are around half of the pollution that hangs out here in the twice yearly inversions.

Our government just laughs at this. Why keep living here and give them tax revenue? if that's not feasible, why keep filling a car with gasoline? if that's not feasible, how about a lower impact form of transport?
 
neptronix said:
CARB and EPA took actions to fit internal combustion cars with emissions controls, so now instead of emitting carbon monoxide, they now emit carbon dioxide. Now we have another problem. Emissions controls bought the car and oil industry some time, and that is about it.
And saved a lot of lives (LA was downright deadly in the 1970's.) And reduced CO2 emissions by quite a bit.

Yes, all those things just bought us some time. But that's all any action can ever do. We WILL run out of oil, for example - the best we can do is buy time and push back that date.
Civil rights acts and women's rights etc have some positive impacts along with negative ones. Some minority groups are actually doing significantly worse. Other ones have improved a bit.
I think pretty much everyone is doing better with less repression and more freedoms. Of course, just having more freedom won't solve all your problems. It just solves one.
Gay rights is just government rolling back it's oppressive laws and no longer being part of the problem. That was easy to tackle once decades of consensus were built.
Yep. And that consensus came from an awful lot of work by protesters, activists, legislators and gay rights groups.
But don't count on consensus or political action. There are many more large problems left unsolved by the 'get the government to fix it' route than solved by that route.
Of course. It's just one method. It worked well for pollution, civil rights and automotive oil use. It won't work for everything.
A backyard garden eliminates a series of pollutants, transportation costs, and health issues for an individual or family. Done on a massive scale, it would eliminate a significant part of humanity's footprint.
Nope. A typical backyard garden will, at most, supply 5% of a family's food needs. And the most pollution/transportation costs/health issues comes not from the carrots you buy at the store (that can be replaced by a garden) but from those steaks you buy (which you can't grow unless you have a reasonably large farm.)

Now, 5% is still something, and if it makes you eat more vegetables, even better. But it's a tiny part of the solution unless you have a few acres (and don't mind spending four hours a day farming.) Equivalent, for example, of buying an EV but making no other changes to your life.
Everyone on a bike and no cars cuts our global emissions EASILY in half.
As does simply moving to within a few miles of where you work, and using local farms.
Almost every major problem we have has a solution you can implement on an individual level. Government has a bad track record of doing the right thing, so doing the right thing is up to us.
I agree that they have a bad track record. But they are sometimes the only way to get anything done.

If you are a company in a capitalist market, and you make a car that is far more efficient than any other - but it costs $500 more - then you will go out of business. Because while people want cars to be more efficient, greed and short-term profit seeking is still the rule of the day. (Classic prisoner's dilemma.) It is those cases where government has a role in enforcing standards that affect ALL car companies, so that the one company doing the right thing is not forced out of business.

Or take bike lanes. Should we take the approach that government has no role to play in putting in bike paths/bike lanes, and that people should just share the road? That wouldn't work well.
Being a living example of what to do is not sticking your head into the sand at all. It's far more effective than begging people in power to force others to do as you wish.
I agree. But you were just complaining about people using EV's is an "extra fancy" way of putting one's head in the sand. Even though they are living examples of a way to get to close to zero carbon/zero pollution transportation.
 
neptronix said:
What's most effective.. protesting chemtrails.. putting a bumper sticker on your car.. or packing your bags and leaving the area?

These options look like this:
1) Beg government to stop doing an evil thing
2) Beg other people to beg government to stop doing an evil thing
3) Actually getting away from evil thing or negating evil thing some other way.

I say do number 3 first and 1 & 2 last.
Not such a good example. The chemtrails theory says they are spraying mind control chemicals from jets that circle the planet, and often use satellite pictures of contrails over the oceans to "prove" they are right. And moving to Mars isn't an option.

(And of course the real answer to the above is "don't listen to lunatics like Alex Jones.")

Let's take another example - a coal company that destroys a town's water supply. Sure, you can move away to someplace better. If everyone follows your example, then the town is deserted, and the coal company no longer has anyone complaining. So they dump their plans for remediation and just pollute more. They do very well - since they don't have to worry about remediation like other coal companies, they can undercut other coal mines and sell more product. This allows them to greatly expand their operation.

Now the larger city down river starts to have the same problem. Do they all move?

There are problems with incentivizing bad behavior like that.

That being said, there are places where that does work. Don't like what Exxon is doing to the environment? Don't buy Exxon gas. They then either change their ways or go bankrupt. But as the above example shows that approach doesn't always work.
 
Sorry, Bill.. i don't think we are going to agree on like.. anything. Not gonna counterargue in this thread.

Also to SlowCo, yeah, i was talking about Boyan Slat. :thumb:
 
One of the great delusions of modern society is---the SOLUTION! Instead of trying to let the electric car evolve, the government is trying to demand. People here carry on about this battery chemistry that's going to magically pop up and solve everything. And of course this alternative fuel. There's no such thing as a solution, there is only the next step. I get the idea from the article that Boyan Slat would tell you that he's not solved the problem, he's only going to put a dent in it. But there the desperate effort to hang on to the myth of a 'Solution.'

https://kfor.com/2018/10/08/yellowstone-geyser-erupts-pours-out-trash-dating-back-to-1930s/

So for every Boyan Slat who at least makes the small move in the right direction, how many of our bold solvers have come up with something like MTBE? Oh yeah, that was going to do us so much good. 15 years since they took it out of the gas,water is still contaminated with it. The plumes are still coming up. I'm still wondering if they ever solved the riddle of the gas additives that reduce gas mileage. Is there enough additional gas burned to mitigate any results of the additives reducing emissions? They sure can do a lot of harm quickly, can't they? But only a small about a good at any one time.

These things are result of the obsession with solving. I remember posting here about the Democratic party putting in supposedly biodegradable disposable knives and forks in the Congressional cafeteria that turned out to NOT biodegrade and they had to be trucked a great distance to be recycled. Diesel trucks, imagine the smoke. Ah, as you mentioned, government only makes things worse. But we can't keep them out of the way.

It's those damn solvers. If someone calls himself a magician, do you believe he's working magic? But a solver in America is one of those sign carriers mentioned, who demand it be made right for them. Oh, I suppose the system got going before they were born, the cars had come to be everywhere and it came to where you needed one, then the news of the air pollution began to sink in. That doesn't mean they're entitled to go their merry way and demand something change. They don't have to give up their car, but others have to give up coal, etc.

So you talk of the fanciful idea of a 'Solver' could have been. I'm talking of the practical reality of what most socalled 'Solvers' really are. Long story of a guy who was such a dead end he overslept the morning of a meeting regarding his promotion and barely got there for it. He found himself at some save the world convention and jumped in front of a microphone to start talking about some vague ideas he had so he could get applause. And he was approached by people from a nonprofit who said they had funding and his idea was exactly what they were looking for and when could he take the job they were offering and get started.

So he told them he wasn't actually interested in saving the world himself, he just wanted to stay home and be an 'Activist. . . .' So who's dumber? Him?The people who want to put him in charge of something? Activists, solvers, no wonder things just keep getting worse.

And ain't it just a sign of the times you don't get to just discuss, you gotta tell people you don't want to be in the idle argument they're seeking?
 
There's a difference between a patcher and a solver.

MTBE was a really bad and poorly thought out patch. Gas is still dirty.
Cleaning plastic out of the ocean is a patch. We are still generating waste at the same rate roughly.
An electric car is a patch. It requires a hell of a lot of resources to build and thus has a big footprint. A transportation system based on cars needs a rethink.

Real solutions:
Invent an alternative to gasoline.
Massively reduce use of plastic through an incentive system, eco-fascism, or better alternatives.
Stop driving such large vehicles around. a 100lb self driving velmobile would be fine and use a tenth of the energy.

Easier said than done, right?

Sometimes it takes a series of well thought out patches to make a solution.

I am also leary of solvers. Good workable ideas are hard to come by, and then the government is often standing in your way, too. I see our western way of living as unsaveable only because so few people are really concerned about it as they should be, and when given a chance to fix it, often drop the ball. That's before they even get to the point where our government can crush their souls. ( even a solution that makes it's way to government only to get squashed is a base for a better one )

But don't hate on people trying, even if they suck at it. People taking time to try to come up with good ideas is a great sign. Even a protest is kind of a weak signal that something needs to be done.

Protests are more about virtue signaling though. And petitions are headed to the circular file 99% of the time and are effectively a form of secular prayer once you consider the success rate.

I don't really respect protests/petitions because they rarely propose good solutions. The point is usually just to provide an outlet.

I think if i saw more people trying to come up with solutions, i'd be a lot more hopeful and less interested in walking away from the western world for the sake of my own health, but we seem pretty frocked as a whole..
 
Who said anything about hating people who are trying? Although i rightly get impatient with those who insist on BEING trying.

People who keep using words like 'Solutions' are pretty much always those trying to force what you would call 'Toxic patches' on everyone. The use of plastic doubling would be a good thing if done right, such as the grocery bags that biodegrade and are good for the soil. But the government would rather call plastic bad and maintain their fiction.
 
The common denominator here is that the government usually sucks at finding and implementing good solutions.
They are also beholden to tax income concerns and bribes.

If a government proves repeatedly incompetent, the only real thing you can do is..
1) Work on innovating a solution ( come up with a bag that degrades and is super close in cost, thus creating a money making opportunity for yourself while pitching that your bag is better and should be universally adopted )
2) Get the hell away from that government.
3) Just suffer :lol:
 
The biodegradable bags are already out there, not sure how much use they see. California now pays 10 cents each for a grocery bag that is "Reusable." Not sure who gets the 10 cents, but cities used to pass laws that they got money for every bag. No impact on the environment, they were just getting some money.

https://grist.org/article/we-broke-down-what-climate-change-will-do-region-by-region/
 
I can take particular interest in getting people walking again, twice I was told I wouldn't and even once I was I was told it wouldn't last. All trying to scare me into surgery. If more people didn't listen. . . .
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/01/world/cnnheroes-top-ten-2018/index.html
 
The govt would never allow experiments, with spraying chemicals into the skies for weather control, atmospheric tests, impact on people health, military testing, etc. Trust your govt at all costs and realize they love you and care about you. These officials we trust, only seek out their job titles as civil servants, because they are full of honesty, compassion and humanity. Also, trust any and all of the so called experts that are tied in with seeking grant money , lobbyists influence, govt contracts or have political affiliations.

Be patriotic and proud, put 100% trust in all your leaders.

Oh, and only 15 more days, till Santa comes down the chimney to give us gifts. Im also glad we eliminated those WMDS in Iraq.
 
rumme said:
Oh, and only 15 more days, till Santa comes down the chimney to give us gifts. Im also glad we eliminated those WMDS in Iraq.

Didn't you hear the sad news ?
Santa entered US airspace last year while norad started tracking him when the anti nuclear ballistic missile system was hacked by the Russians and his coordinates where used to give Santa a direct hit and is he is no more, the Chinese covertly listened in to the event on everyone's Huawei phones and stole the remaining presents, they are currently making the knock offs as we speak and searching for a fat grey beared china man to wear the suit that will save xmas.
 
I always get a chuckle out of naïve people in society, that claim their corrupt govt,/military would never allow or be involved in any type of spraying chemicals in our atmosphere for reasons of weather control , weapondry, testing of impact on health of humans, etc.


Evidently , China has been experimenting with this type of stuff for a long time and even had a division of their military dedicated to it.


About 10 years ago, I was outside for a full 8 hours, working on a new roof. On that day, I never had seen so many trails in the sky in my life. I physically counted over 120 individual spray streams , all of which were making patterns in the sky. I also saw, for the first time, the thick bluish " tracer lines" in the sky, which the jets follow and release their white streams near { you dont see those bluish streams often, because you have to be at the PERFECT viewing angle to observe them }


I came home that evening, and told my wife, that we may be getting some really intense weather within the next week. Three days later, our area got hit with what is locally called a " 500 year flood' . We got over 20 inchs of rain over a short period of time and many areas were underwater for weeks afterwards . Just another one of those incredible coincidences .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/05/10/china-is-launching-a-massive-weather-control-machine-the-size-of-alaska/#28361db46315
 
It never ceases to amaze me how people will refuse to believe the emissions from billions and billions of cars and factories and most industrial processes has anything to do with climate change, but have total credence that spraying some chemicals from a few thousand aircraft can materialize enough water from a cloudless sky to cause a 500 year flood. Their Occam's razor is looking pretty rusty.
 
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