Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Offroader said:
Without Regen you will eat bicycle brake pads unfortunately. Surprised you got only less than 200 miles out of them, but they do go quickly without regen.

I have Regen. For that I only need to go off the gas. At about 1500km I had to change the rear brake pads.
 
Offroader said:
derb said:
Brakes:
I had the MT5 in front to test (I had borrowed) and that worked great.
The braking force was great and a huge difference to the original brake.

However, I have now got a Shimano Saint because I like the shorter levers.
The braking force is even higher :twisted:

Derb, forgot to ask you, any reason you choose the Saint brakes over the Zee brakes?

Did the saint brakes fit, especially the hoses without needing any cutting, like were they drop in replacement for front and rear?

Thanks

I got the Saint on Black Friday for -20%, the difference was not that big anymore for the Zee. In addition, I already have a Zee on my other bike and wanted to test for myself how the difference is from the Saint to Zee.

I had to shorten the hoses for front and back. If you take care that nothing leaking from the brake fluid you can save the venting.
 
liveforphysics said:
Along with the chain re-tension standard moto maintenance, don't forget to check the primary belt reduction tension as well, as it also relaxes a bit as the belt wears in.

The noise gets on my nerves from the belt at ~ 20-25km / h (~ 15mph). I once lowered the tension, then it got better, but after some time the annoying noise came back anyway. Will replace the belt with the chain kit as soon as the belt is broken.
 
derb said:
The noise gets on my nerves from the belt at ~ 20-25km / h (~ 15mph). I once lowered the tension, then it got better, but after some time the annoying noise came back anyway. Will replace the belt with the chain kit as soon as the belt is broken.

And you think the high RPM first stage reduction noise will be less with a chain?
 
SlowCo said:
derb said:
The noise gets on my nerves from the belt at ~ 20-25km / h (~ 15mph). I once lowered the tension, then it got better, but after some time the annoying noise came back anyway. Will replace the belt with the chain kit as soon as the belt is broken.

And you think the high RPM first stage reduction noise will be less with a chain?

I'll have to find out for myself. Or does someone have a comparison?
 
I suspect that a high RPM chain drive will be much more annoying than a belt drive. Maybe a (3D printed?) enclosure around/over the belt drive stage would reduce the high RPM sound a lot. Combined with an O-ring chain as final reduction at the wheel the noise should be dampened enough I think.
 
derb said:
I got the Saint on Black Friday for -20%, the difference was not that big anymore for the Zee. In addition, I already have a Zee on my other bike and wanted to test for myself how the difference is from the Saint to Zee.

I had to shorten the hoses for front and back. If you take care that nothing leaking from the brake fluid you can save the venting.

How would you compare the Saint vs the Zee? Are the Saints worth the extra price?
 
derb said:
The noise gets on my nerves from the belt at ~ 20-25km / h (~ 15mph). I once lowered the tension, then it got better, but after some time the annoying noise came back anyway. Will replace the belt with the chain kit as soon as the belt is broken.
I don't think the belt makes much noise. I think a lot of it is just the motor/frame hitting a resonance at a certain speed. I noticed the noise gets a lot less once it gets above this speed. I'm sure a chain would be a lot louder.
 
Yes the bike is loud for sure. Everybody looks or turns their head when you drive by them. I guess this is one of the draw backs for a mid-drive or maybe a positive if you want it to sound like a motorcycle.
 
Not all mid drives are loud, don't throw us all in this category because of a Sur-ron flaw
 
The flaw would be it making noise to the point where people are looking at you from a distance while riding in public places and the rider is complaining about the noise himself while riding...

not all mid drives have two stage reduction, and not all are that loud. some are almost silent with the correct pitch chain and controller and gear ratio combo's right. also higher the RPM the louder the whine so the two stage reduction actually increases noise doesn't it?
 
If you run a good chain adjusted right, and adjust the belt right, the ASI controller makes the bike surprisingly a lot more quiet to ride around at low speeds. That tells me if you feed that double reduction drive with low-torque ripple it doesn't experience as much chain resonance.

If being more quiet means enough to DIY something, you could fab or 3d print a part to clamp around the swingarm and hold a section of thick wall braided high pressure hose or something similar that clampshells the return side of the chain to just barely be in contact with gravity sagging the chain onto it's lower clamshell so it doesn't add much drag. Design to make it easy to slit open a new 2-3in piece of hose to swap it out if it wears until it's not quiet anymore. If it's still loud, use a softer hose material, change where you're supporting the chain, or add a 2nd or 3rd stabilizer along different points if you want to be extreme about it.
Get a flagship brand X-ring or O-ring chain, and coat it in as much mass of the heaviest grease you can find that will stay adhered as a lower effort lower rewards and bigger messes approach than building your own chain stabilizer.


skeetab5780 said:
The flaw would be it making noise to the point where people are looking at you from a distance while riding in public places and the rider is complaining about the noise himself while riding...

not all mid drives have two stage reduction, and not all are that loud. some are almost silent with the correct pitch chain and controller and gear ratio combo's right. also higher the RPM the louder the whine so the two stage reduction actually increases noise doesn't it?
 
Everything is relative, but for a person who are used to a hub motor will react to the noise from mid drives for sure. Even bbs02 is loud in comparison. But of course - surron, lmx, kubergs are even louder. The guys used riding pit bikes think it is dead silent. You cant make the metal chain silent unless you drain it in grease and incapsulate the whole thing in som kind of protection to make the grease stay there.
This is why I will try to swap out the chain to belt drive.

Luke did you guys used stock belt when riding with ASI?
 
The stock belt seems pretty standard. Maybe there is a Gates Poly chain that would be more durable and be quiet. Maybe
with some better covering from the elements it would be a good solution. I haven't done any research, but know the polychain
is pretty bad ass.
 
Hotroding was all on stock front belt. If the tension is kept snug on them, they handle a boatload of power.
 
liveforphysics said:
Hotroding was all on stock front belt. If the tension is kept snug on them, they handle a boatload of power.
Yes i also think the stock belt does fine. It looks overbuilt for the amount of torque it needs to transfer.
I don't remember the exact size and dimensions, but i think i have seen a belt from Gates that fit's and is stronger if someone needs a replacement..
 
Swapped out the Twist and put in the Thumb throttle. :bigthumb:

It went smoothly, the wires were color coded correctly, (Red = +5 / Green = Signal / Black = - )

I removed the twist throttle, cable, and hall sensor module.

Took it for a 5 minute ride tonight and it was just perfect and the throttle control was very smooth. I now have full precision control of the bike again and could easily notice all the things I couldn't do with the twist. Too bad its going to be raining for many days and because of the winter the ground takes so long to dry after it rain. I won't be taking it off-road for quite a while to see what the Sur-Ron is really finally capable of.

For you guys who prefer the thumb throttle, if any even exist, swap it out as its a fairly easy conversion. Just remove the steel bash guard, the plastic piece that sits under the controller, unplug the connector that leads to the Throttle cable/hall device inside the large heat shrink, unscrew and remove the throttle cable/hall device, cut the connector end off the throttle cable/hall device and solder your thumb throttle wire to the connector, then plug the connector back into the harness.

Real ebikes use thumb throttles.
I7Ed5cZ.jpg


Yuck get that thing off my bike. No reason to use a steel cable that just converts the signal to halls for the controller and that probably adds resistance and play into your throttle control.

tIwrQnq.jpg


Below I put a red line on the wire where I cut the wire and connected my thumb throttle wire into the connector end.

XFU6LY1.jpg
 
Would anyone happen to know what that silver device I circled in the picture is? It has 3 wires going to it, Black/Green/Red wire.

Is that the DC/DC converter?

If it is, does anyone know how many amps it is rated for?

4BAW6ez.jpg
 
Offroader said:
Yuck get that thing off my bike. No reason to use a steel cable that just converts the signal to halls for the controller and that probably adds resistance and play into your throttle control.

Good point. Think something like this would work?

https://amzn.to/2PAn5XY
 
Offroader said:
Would anyone happen to know what that silver device I circled in the picture is? It has 3 wires going to it, Black/Green/Red wire.

Is that the DC/DC converter?

If it is, does anyone know how many amps it is rated for?

Yes, that's the dc-dc converter. I couldn't find any marking on mine, but didn't remove it to look on the back side. Just from the size, I'd guess it can handle about 10A. Enough to run just about any kind of lights. The input comes from the key switch.
 
3DTOPO said:
Good point. Think something like this would work?

https://amzn.to/2PAn5XY

I also thougt about replacing the stock throttle, because of its big wrist twist. I would prefer a high quality Domino Poti-Throttle, which I allready use on my zero.

https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/03/30/5k-ohm-throttles-domino-vs-magura/

I'm just curious if a Poti Throttle will work smooth, because the stock throttle box seems a hall sensor, which often has a closed state offset of about 0.5V.

BTW: Hi, I'm Marco from Germany! Got my Sur Ron recently and still try to find my personal setup for Trail fun (Bars, Brakes, etc.) :D
Great Forum with lots of ideas and help! :thumb:

regards,

Marco
 
mbldc said:
3DTOPO said:
Good point. Think something like this would work?

https://amzn.to/2PAn5XY

I also thougt about replacing the stock throttle, because of its big wrist twist. I would prefer a high quality Domino Poti-Throttle, which I allready use on my zero.

Hi Marco,

Congrats and welcome!

Looks like the Domino is pretty solid throttle if it works with the Sur Ron. But one thing that doesn't sound good, is a comment on that page:

3. The switch is by default “on” when the spring releases, meaning a broken throttle’s switch is left “on” by default (not good).

Having the throttle possibly stuck full on doesn't sound at all safe.
 
3DTOPO said:
Looks like the Domino is pretty solid throttle if it works with the Sur Ron. But one thing that doesn't sound good, is a comment on that page:

3. The switch is by default “on” when the spring releases, meaning a broken throttle’s switch is left “on” by default (not good).

Having the throttle possibly stuck full on doesn't sound at all safe.

I think the commentator didn't get it right and mixed up the throttle-function and the built in microswitch. :roll:
This throttle is used in Energica Bikes with 107kw, i guess it should be reliable :lol:
Only redundand throttle are SIL-capable, regardless of Poti or Hall principle (mostly two wipers with invert signals). Zero switched to Dual Channel Throttle in the later model years, i guess it was because of safety concerns.
 
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