Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 17 2018 1:57pm

As long as the bash guard doesn't bend whit light impacts it will be acceptable. Right now the stock guard will bend up with like bike weight alone.

If its too sturdy you may just break the connection points to the frame. I don't know how strong those aluminum connection point holes are. Will it take a 5 foot jump impact? I doubt it. If the bash guard doesn't break the aluminum frame will. I doubt Sur-Ron ever intended the frame to take any major impacts from the bottom.

I would never be jumping onto anything where I would impact the guard. So most of the hits will be impacts from riding over tall objects. Or maybe riding over a tall log.

It would be nice if the guard could connect to 6 points, somehow connecting to that rear cross cylinder at the very bottom of the bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 18 2018 8:58am

Offroader wrote:
Dec 17 2018 1:57pm
As long as the bash guard doesn't bend with light impacts it will be acceptable. Right now the stock guard will bend up with like bike weight alone.
Another possibility is to make something out of metal tubes like a cage that can support some weight. An intentional weak link might help protect the frame if the impact is too much. Most of the time you'd just be sliding over a tree stump or rock.

Motorcycle-Engine-Guard.jpg
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 18 2018 3:13pm

agreed, you also really don't need to keep it fully enclosed as the motor needs better air flow.

The motor doesn't really get all that much air flow right now. I really believe once people start pushing 8KW or higher, and the summer temps start hitting 90f, the motor is going to have overheating issues when pushed hard, especially if you are using field weakening.

I can feel the motor getting warm now in 30 degree weather with only 4.5KW, and no field weakening, and very detuned (weak accelerating) x-controller. The new X-controller, I don't believe has field weakening and we know they don't have regen. They are also detuned and people say the new x-controllers feel no different then the stock controller. It also seemed like in videos the original square wave controller was able to lift up the front of the bike a little at low speeds, the new x-controller is so detuned or weak that there is no way you will be able to do this.

Field weakening overheats the motor as quickly as if you climbed up a steep hill. When people start pushing close to 10KW, using aggressive PWR settings like the Max-E has to get very strong acceleration, and Field weakening, they are going to start overheating this motor which practically gets no air flow.

This is part of the reason in my opinion Sur-Ron is limiting the power of its controllers because they don't want people overheating these motors as they lack proper airflow. I know people are saying they are not overheating their motor, but they are pushing a wimpy 4.5 KW and what seems to be like almost no phase amps, as the acceleration and low speed power is very weak. To get up stairs with this bike I have to full throttle it, and it climbs slowly up them.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Dec 18 2018 3:49pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 18 2018 3:13pm

They are also detuned and people say the new x-controllers feel no different then the stock controller. It also seemed like in videos the original square wave controller was able to lift up the front of the bike a little at low speeds, the new x-controller is so detuned or weak that there is no way you will be able to do this.
Not true. I've got the new X controller and I can lift/wheelie the front easily in eco mode, let alone sport mode. I can even wheelie it in my garage from a near stand-still, so not sure why you say that it can't.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 18 2018 4:14pm

aspencreek, are these the new or the old x-controllers? The original X ones had regen, 20% more top speed.., maybe even field weakening

There is no lifting up the front of my bike with my x-controller and 48 tooth sprocket. Maybe if I pulled really hard on the handlebars and at the same time gave full throttle, but I could do that on any ebike.

Also the top speed with my new X-bike seems to be like 65 KPH or 40 MPH, it gets there slowly and may raise a bit higher if going down a hill.

I wheelie my hub bike all the time, and lift the front wheel up all the time so this isn't new to me either.

Something seems odd if you are able to wheelie the bike that easily and if you are able to give full throttle and lift the front wheel up without lifting it by pulling on the handlebars, that isn't happening on my bike and especially not in ECO.

Someone else reported the following about the x-controller on Luna cycles facebook page, here is what they wrote. This kind of falls in line with what I am noticing also.

I ordered the X controller and on the website it said regenerative braking, 20% more torq, smoother ,quieter. So I put it on my bike and it is identical to the original controller. So I emailed lun a cycle and they tell me that the X controllers are programmed that way , it must be the new way they’re doing it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 18 2018 4:56pm

You guys get your x-controllers/bikes with or without warranty?
wheelie, it is very easy on the old controller and on the new it is even easier. You dont even have to pull the handlebars. But there is a catch - you can only do power wheelie, from crawling speed. Once you go faster than walking speed it its another story.

at 70% charge with sine-wave and stock 48T it gets the speed over 80kph(not GPS but what on the display)


Just checking how motor spins without chain and belt:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 18 2018 5:59pm

Allex wrote:
Dec 18 2018 4:56pm


at 70% charge with sine-wave and stock 48T it gets the speed over 80kph(not GPS but what on the display)

LOL, is that on a stock x controller? That is so much faster than mine. That is crazy fast that bike.

The x-controllers we have over here are total crap.
Last edited by Offroader on Dec 18 2018 6:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 18 2018 6:11pm

Yup, Think I saw 87km/h at 95% charge(73km/h on square wave). Considering its only a 16s system, the result is impressive.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 18 2018 6:16pm

Looks like they de-tuned the controllers over here in USA. I do get 78 amps peak, but they must have changed other settings like the PWR.

Oh well, I will have to wait for another controller at this point but I always expected that. The other thing is I wanted an orange bike so I would have paid extra for that color, so I don't feel so cheated with my x-bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 18 2018 6:33pm

I would look at this in 24F version.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=75494
Same thinking as adaptto with charging and bms but much more refined and FOC control.
Great support too, very dedicated and have his own telegram channel for users with problems/questions. Also own wiki!
LMX is currently using the 12F

https://t.me/nucularelectronics_en

http://nucularelectronics.wikidot.com/en:start

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Lelandjt » Dec 19 2018 5:19pm

Allex wrote:
Nov 20 2018 3:20am
Allex wrote:
Feb 13 2018 6:30pm
Looks like Sur-Ron changed their 10A chargers.
These are made to be mounted inside the bike, but works just as good as an external one.
The 300A kelly on the left in comparison, and It is tempting to swap out original controller to it!
IMG_4329.jpg

Now, who want to see the battery?
I got to tell you, these guys mean business. This is the best built battery on the market to date for this kind of money!
Everything is water proof, really well thought-out and high quality components everywhere.
Supra x connectors on the drain side
cnlinko industrial connectors on the charge side, waterproof and very high quality.
No cheap XLR/Anderson connectors here. They really put their heart into this battery!
IMG_4326.jpg


The only thing I would improve is having thicker nickel strips, but this is only needed if you want to suck more than 85A from the original cells. And you cannot do this because the stock BMS itself is 85A rated.
So you probably end up swapping BMS as well once you start mod this bike with diff. controller.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... r#p1358016
The updated battery have different holders and better cell connection - a lot more nickel.
IMG_5360.jpg
IMG_5361.jpg

There is actually space for 4 more cells so you can build a 180 cells battery using original holders and have a 20s9p pack
IMG_5362.jpg

If you like glue, here is what you can fit within the actual cell holder, 109 on each level gives you 218 cells, thats a 20s11p pack if you add 2 more cells on top. Using Sanyo GA you get 72V38Ah
IMG_5363.jpg

If you are brave and use minimal protection you can fit another row, thats additional 30 cells and gives you 248 cells a potential 21s12p if you can fit 4 more cells.

IMG_5364.jpg
When the stock battery case is crammed with more cells how much more does it weigh. I'm intrigued with the idea of more range but curious what the weight penatly is.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 19 2018 5:32pm

It is simple to figure out, 18650 cells weigh about 50 grams each.

The stock pack has 176 cells, so if you go to the maximum cells Alex calculated which is a 248 cell pack you are adding 72 more cells above the 176.

50 grams * 72 more cells = 3600 grams more weight. or 8lbs.

That is the easiest way to figure it out and just adjust the formula based on how many additional cells over 176 you plan on using and add that to your pack weight.
Last edited by Offroader on Dec 19 2018 5:51pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 19 2018 5:41pm

I upgraded to a Deity highside 80mm rise (760mm wide) handlebar based on others recommendations in prior posts I read.

wow :shock: , what a difference it makes. At first I didn't like the stock handlebar, felt it was far too low, but actually got used to it and thought it wasn't so bad.
When I put on the 3" handlebar and sat on the bike in my garage, I was worried if maybe the handlebar was too high with the 80mm rise.

With my 1st ride today with the new handlebar the bike was much easier to handle, especially in sharp turns, both sitting and standing. Much easier to stand up and ride. Just overall much better in everything, it gives you much more control of the bike.

I always felt something was off with the bike and it actually was the stupid low handlebar that comes stock with the bike. A high rise handlebar is a must have upgrade. Why Sur-Ron would put such a low rise handlebar is beyond me. I'm also average height.

Image

Image
Last edited by Offroader on Dec 19 2018 10:25pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 19 2018 5:45pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 19 2018 5:41pm
Why Sur-Ron would put such a low rise handlebar is beyond me.
The average height in China is 5 feet.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Lelandjt » Dec 19 2018 6:09pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 19 2018 5:32pm
It is simple to figure out, 18650 cells weigh about 50 grams each.

The stock pack has 176 cells, so if you go to the maximum cells Alex calculated which is a 248 cell pack you are adding 72 more cells above the 176.

50 grams * 72 more cells = 3600 grams more weight. or 8lbs.

That is the easiest way to figure it out and just adjust the formula based on how many additional cells over 176 you plan on using and add that to your pack weight.
Thanks, that's the same difference as filling my KTM's tank half or full.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Lelandjt » Dec 19 2018 6:12pm

What pressures are you guys running in the stock tires for trail riding? My trails are a bit rocky and high speed so I'm around 23 rear, 21 front to avoid pinch flats and squirming. I want to try lower but worried about impacts.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 19 2018 9:11pm

Lelandjt wrote:
Dec 19 2018 6:12pm
What pressures are you guys running in the stock tires for trail riding? My trails are a bit rocky and high speed so I'm around 23 rear, 21 front to avoid pinch flats and squirming. I want to try lower but worried about impacts.
I run around 12psi. With the FOC X Controller, it was tearing the valve stem so I switched to tubeless and haven't looked back.

I wouldn't go below 15psi without switching to tubeless.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 19 2018 11:03pm

If you want to try lower pressures, I'd recommend trying to clean off the rim and tire interface. They used some kind of really slippery lube when they mounted the tires and it stays slippery. You can just deflate the tire and clean between the tire and rim with some alcohol or similar.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 19 2018 11:32pm

Im going to try a riser bar now, sounds great. How tall are you?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 20 2018 12:25am

Tall bars are the bomb. The fork and stem are made for a pedaling position. This picture shows that
even for a junior rider you need taller bars.
85 bee.JPG

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by derb » Dec 20 2018 4:01am

Allex wrote:
Dec 18 2018 4:56pm

Just checking how motor spins without chain and belt:
Can you do that again at 20 to 30km / h? I would be interested in whether the engine has its own resonance frequency in this area.
Thanks

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by matthepp » Dec 20 2018 1:41pm

Hi all,
I'm an avid mountain biker and have recently put a few years of moto riding under my belt, mostly technical singletrack. I just got a Sur Ron X from Luna last week. I have a few questions (sorry, I did my best as a noob to search for answers first):
1. Bike already covered in adobe mud. Is it okay per manufacturer/supplier to pressure wash this bike? If not, how to wash?
2. Has anyone installed a brake light? Can this be triggered via the rear brake cutoff switch?
3. I added a little switch on the cut green/black wire. This bumped my (200#) top speed from 40 kph all the way up to 43 kph. Is this all I should expect?
4. I have read varying reports about "wheelie popping power" to "detuned X controllers". While I like the bike already for trail riding, I would love way more torque. I plan to switch to the 60 tooth sprocket. What is the TRUTH about the available power/controllers?
5. I already smashed the crap out of the stock motor splash guard working on splats, etc. I got the Luna guard and I give it a week max before it's junk. Anyone out there producing our thinking about working on a real bash guard, something like the stuff that Flatland Racing puts out?
Thanks, Matt

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 20 2018 3:22pm

matthepp wrote:
Dec 20 2018 1:41pm
Hi all,
I'm an avid mountain biker and have recently put a few years of moto riding under my belt, mostly technical singletrack. I just got a Sur Ron X from Luna last week. I have a few questions (sorry, I did my best as a noob to search for answers first):
1. Bike already covered in adobe mud. Is it okay per manufacturer/supplier to pressure wash this bike? If not, how to wash?
2. Has anyone installed a brake light? Can this be triggered via the rear brake cutoff switch?
3. I added a little switch on the cut green/black wire. This bumped my (200#) top speed from 40 kph all the way up to 43 kph. Is this all I should expect?
4. I have read varying reports about "wheelie popping power" to "detuned X controllers". While I like the bike already for trail riding, I would love way more torque. I plan to switch to the 60 tooth sprocket. What is the TRUTH about the available power/controllers?
5. I already smashed the crap out of the stock motor splash guard working on splats, etc. I got the Luna guard and I give it a week max before it's junk. Anyone out there producing our thinking about working on a real bash guard, something like the stuff that Flatland Racing puts out?
Thanks, Matt
Hi Matt, I just wanted to comment on gearing. I ran the 48T, 52T, 55T and a 58T sprockets on my SurRon, and I weigh 240+ pounds, the best gearing I had found was the 52T and 55T with a nod toward the 55T. I think for riders under 200# the 52t would be optimal. I had a little more top speed with the 55T over the 58T and literally no difference in acceleration. What I think was going on here was due to lack of inductance load factors, the 58T wasn't demanding max phase amps so it didn't accelerate any faster than the 55T. Many pages back in this thread, I posted marks on a sandy hill climb with all gear ratios, the 55 and 58T sprockets stalled out in the same place where wheel spin and momentum kept me from going further. I would not go to a 60T on these machines unless I was over 300 pounds or pulling a trailer, or only climbed hills.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 20 2018 6:18pm

Looks like I need to make some 55s. I thought it was just a passing fad.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Lelandjt » Dec 20 2018 6:59pm

Luna just started selling a steel 54t. I'd like to buy an aluminum 52 or 54t though. Motomoto, how do I buy your sprocket and do you include a couple links of o-ring chain and a masterlink so the stock X-bike chain can be lengthened, or should I just buy a new chain to use with your sprocket?

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