spiralling environmental cost, lithium batteries

LockH · Dec 21, 2018

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery
("As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right"):
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lit...Wll-6DN4l50MWkUKBzdIXjMvml0u3XmngqaYmIYnY2Tqs

:shock:

Volt_Ampere · Dec 22, 2018

Yup. Lithium supply will be a big issue as more electric vehicles are produced.

Joachim · Dec 22, 2018

Humanity wil end up with horse and carriage :mrgreen:

DAND214 · Dec 22, 2018

Joachim said:
Humanity wil end up with horse and carriage

Again?

Dan

dustNbone · Dec 22, 2018

Pretty sure putting that many horses into service would be it's own sort of environmental disaster.

billvon · Dec 22, 2018

Joachim said:
Humanity wil end up with horse and carriage

Eh, if lithium runs short then we use battery formulations that use less lithium. Or switch to magnesium or phosphate batteries. Or if we don't want to do as much work, we go to nickel metal hydride or plain old lead acid.

Grantmac · Dec 22, 2018

Magnesium will eventually take over I'm sure. Far more abundant and potentially better energy density.

Dauntless · Dec 22, 2018

If a flashlight can run on water---Oh, wait, we'd run out of that, wouldn't we?

https://www.hydralight.com/

jonescg · Dec 22, 2018

Once lithium, nickel and cobalt get scarce enough they will go looking for more. And formulate ways of using less of it. And eventually we'll have a decent battery recycling system in place, so I wouldn't be too concerned.

Dauntless · Dec 23, 2018

All that is would be optimism. Demand doubles, they use 10% less in a cell, we wind up needing 9x more lithium for 10x the useage. That still means electrics are just a niche.

There will have to be batteries other than lithium. And probably no dominant chemistry unless we can grow it. Any ideas for a corn battery?

billvon · Dec 23, 2018

jonescg said:
Once lithium, nickel and cobalt get scarce enough they will go looking for more. And formulate ways of using less of it. And eventually we'll have a decent battery recycling system in place, so I wouldn't be too concerned.

Yep. Even today we have Li formulations that use little to no cobalt. Scarcity will drive cost, and that cost will drive research into, and then changes in, battery chemistries.

Punx0r · Dec 24, 2018

Much like increasingly expensive rare earth element magnets has incentivised the development of switched reluctance motors/generators.

Sunder · Dec 25, 2018

Dauntless said:
All that is would be optimism. Demand doubles, they use 10% less in a cell, we wind up needing 9x more lithium for 10x the useage. That still means electrics are just a niche.

There will have to be batteries other than lithium. And probably no dominant chemistry unless we can grow it. Any ideas for a corn battery?

Its the old peak oil trap. People assume that demand will follow trend growth, but rarely assume supply will follow trend growth. There are usually seemingly good reasons for that ("Population is growing, but no new oil is being made!").

However, this fails to take into account innovation and economic drivers. E.g. at $5 a barrel, a huge amount of oil is uneconomical to extract, but at $150 a barrel, a lot more is.

Likewise, seawater extraction might become feasible, or we might start near earth object mining.

I'm not saying we should waste what we have assuming there is guaranteed an alternative, but at the same time, we shouldn't be waiting until an alternative is available to allow what reserves we know we have to be used either. Remember, the first peak oil prediction was made in the 1880s - nearly 140 years ago.

chvidgov.bc.ca · Dec 25, 2018

I understand that village scale sodium based flow batteries are only a matter of a few years away based on the recent discovery at MIT with metallic matrices. They are aready at 150kwatthours/kg. with really long life span. Lithium isn't the only horse in the race.

Mandres · Dec 28, 2018

Dauntless said:
There will have to be batteries other than lithium. And probably no dominant chemistry unless we can grow it. Any ideas for a corn battery?

Isn't that essentially what the human metabolism system is? Why can't we copy that to power our machines? An elephant is a gigantic machine, and it runs on hay ...

billvon · Dec 28, 2018

Mandres said:
Why can't we copy that to power our machines?

In general, it can be a bad idea to give people the choice between feeding the hungry and powering their machines.

Hillhater · Dec 28, 2018

chvidgov.bc.ca said:
I understand that village scale sodium based flow batteries are only a matter of a few years away based on the recent discovery at MIT with metallic matrices. They are aready at 150kwatthours/kg. with really long life span. Lithium isn't the only horse in the race.

Flow batteries, of various chemistrys, have been commercially available and in use for several years.
They have not made much impact on the storage market, and have their own issues to resolve.
150 kWh/kg is a typo im sure ! :lol:

LockH · Dec 31, 2018

dustNbone said:
Pretty sure putting that many horses into service would be it's own sort of environmental disaster.

From Horse Power to Horsepower
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6sm968t2

:wink:

LockH · Dec 31, 2018

chvidgov.bc.ca said:
Lithium isn't the only horse in the race.

Amusing choice of phraseology. :lol:

spiralling environmental cost, lithium batteries

LockH

1 PW

Volt_Ampere

10 W

Joachim

1 kW

DAND214

10 MW

dustNbone

10 kW

billvon

1 MW

Grantmac

10 kW

Dauntless

100 TW

jonescg

100 MW

Dauntless

100 TW

billvon

1 MW

Punx0r

1 GW

Sunder

10 MW

chvidgov.bc.ca

10 kW

Mandres

1 mW

billvon

1 MW

Hillhater

100 TW

LockH

1 PW

LockH

1 PW

Similar threads