Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 26 2018 12:16pm

Now if you are in a rural area where most people run 250cc dirt bikes, then it would make sense to go with something larger. That is what Rix did. I actually always wondered why Rix ran ebikes in the desert, but he eventually moved to an Alta because it made more sense as I guess he wanted to stick with electric.
You are correct about my move to the Alta, but it wasn't just one reason, more like several reasons. The biggest reason I moved to the Alta was I wanted the ability to climb gnarlier terrain and see more of the off road world that involved climbing mountains. More power, bigger battery, and better suspension all played an important reason in my decision. It should also be noted that I wouldn't have bought an Alta if I couldn't get it licenses and insured. This allows me to ride from my garage which I do when I can't dedicate several hours to haul my bike to the trail head and ride. All that said, I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike with 14kw of power and a 3.6kwh battery. 50MPH top speed would be ideal. A 21x1.60 MC rim on the front and a 18x1.85 MC rim on the rear with enough tire clearance to run 4.0-4.5" wide MC tires on the rear and upto 3.25" wide tires on the front. Throw some lightweight MC suspension on the front and rear for good measure. I believe if Alta just scaled up the lightbee, this could be achieved and be just under 200# of ready to ride. I would gladly pay $8,000 or so for something like this, which is totally feasible given the price of the current SurRon.

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 26 2018 12:30pm

I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike
Coming!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 26 2018 12:45pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:51am
madin88 wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:42am
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:30am
How could that be a typo? It's not like it says "Wheal". Someone very intentionally added the word wheel there.
Come on man, do you seriously think this 50HP motorcycle comes with just 42lb-ft at the WHEEL?
Maybe. Look, this 45HP engine puts out 20.73 lb-ft at the shaft:
Image

So geared 3:1 that would be 60lb-ft at the wheel, definitely more than 42lb-ft, but maybe its 50HP peak power and 35HP sustained. Just like they claim the Sur Ron is 6KW peak - but we all know how much that means.

All I know for sure is that it has the word Wheel where torque is specified.
If you look just above that bullet point list they state it's at the crank. Although personally I find that questionable unless it drops off rapidly. Because if it's peak HP is at the quoted 14000rpm then it should only be making ~18 lb-ft at the crank which is a reasonable number. Which given the overall reduction of ~15:1 and ignoring losses put it around 270 lb-ft at the wheel, also reasonable.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 26 2018 12:50pm

Allex wrote:
Dec 26 2018 5:06am
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
I've spent +10 years riding cross country off road enduro and some trials.
Bro... and yet you tell us that a DIY middrive MTB would be much better than a Sur. I can tell you it is not. The riding and handling is a joke compared to the Sur. Sure, you will have more power - but strait lines is probably not your thing at all ;)
Better because of where I can ride it and it's lower weight. I'd rather be on a proper motorcycle (preferably trials) than either one. But since I want to make use of bicycle infrastructure and access I need something which is still a bicycle. Around here that means functioning peddles and minimal bodywork.
The Sur-Ron can't replace my motorcycle and can't go where I can take a bicycle.

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 26 2018 12:55pm

Maybe with 30 ft/lbs of torque at the motor there is 220 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheel of the Sur-ron?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 26 2018 5:31pm

I haven't run the numbers but I assume that's the gear reduction to back sprocket. It would go the other way from sprocket to wheel.

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 26 2018 6:52pm

No luck with the rear fender :cry: , the fender failed on its first ride. It wasn't my bracket, it was the aluminum bracket on the fender that slowly cracked.

While it worked it was really nice being able to ride over anything and get almost no mud thrown up all over your back. I would say it stopped about 98% of the mud in the rear. It seemed a few drops got by the fender when riding in really wet and muddy dirt.

The fender was also kind of annoying in that it did make some noise when riding over stuff, it was too long I think to not be supported on both sides. I see that its going to take much planning to make a fender that looks good, blocks most mud, and is very stable.

I normally don't use fenders as I mostly ride in the summer where one is not needed. At this point I'm just going to wait to see what someone else comes out with for the bike.

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 26 2018 7:09pm

Just wanted to clarify that the Sur-Ron has decent power, it has more than enough power/speed to keep up in city traffic, to climb anything no matter how steep. By no means is it a slow bike. There really isn't any urgency for me to upgrade the power.

The suspension is quite amazing on the bike and it is much better than my hub motor ebike, it just rides over the harshest terrain very smoothly. The rear suspension seems to be as smooth as the front, which I thought would never be possible.

However, what I think everybody needs to understand is that it is highly unlikely that Sur-Ron will increase the power/speed of the bike above what it is now. The reason is the bike is built with bicycle components and it isn't built to ride above 50MPH, if even 40MPH. The front fork alone weighs like 6lbs, think about that for a second.

Could you imagine if Sur-Ron put out to the public a bike that can hit 60MPH with bicycle components like the brakes and suspension it comes with? Those components were not built for those kind of speeds and what you would have is people who will buy the bike and start pushing the bike like it was built like a 250cc 220lbs dirt bike.

Think of some recent posts here about people wanting the Sur-Ron to do what a larger dirt bike will do, imagine if you gave them Sur-Ron modified to do 15KW, they may very well kill themselves on the bike.

This would be dangerous and possibly criminal, I don't think Sur-Ron wants the liability or isses. The only way you are going to get any more power out of the bike is if you mod the bike yourself for more power.

The only way you are going to get a faster Sur-Ron bike from Sur-Ron is if they build a larger bike with dirt bike suspension and components.

Will I be modifying my bike to do 8 or 10KW? You bet. But I fully understand the limits of the bike. I surely would not give my 10KW bike to a pro dirt bike rider and let him treat start doing crazy jumps and stuff with it, when he does not understand the limits of the bicycle components its built with.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 7:23pm

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 12:50pm
Around here that means functioning peddles and minimal bodywork.
Install the pedal kit then. :wink:

As for bodywork, I don't think there is any?

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 26 2018 10:22pm

You motor heads should look at the data from ASI. It says a lot about the Sur-ron motor. 10 hp is all we are looking at maximum.
Yeah, with 20s there is some more power, but 10 hp is all we can expect. Which is double what we get stock.

It's interesting to me that the best numbers are at about 2000 rpm, which makes me think of variable torque converters and
such. A 2 speed would be nice.
Last edited by motomoto on Dec 26 2018 10:37pm, edited 1 time in total.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 10:36pm

motomoto wrote:
Dec 26 2018 10:22pm
You motor heads should look at the data from ASI. It says a lot about the Sur-ron motor. 10 hp is all we are looking at maximum.
Yeah, with 20s there is some more power, but 10 hp is all we can expect. Which is double what we get stock.

It's interesting to me that the best numbers are at about 2000 rpm, which makes me think of variable torque converters and
what not. A 2 speed would be nice.
Seems like this kind of design could be less finicky and more bomber than a derailleur. More efficient than a chain too.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Dec 26 2018 10:46pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:40am

Besides, as I pointed out, I can keep up with 250cc bikes and have no need (nor is it really possible) to go faster. Aspencreek: how many CC's is the bike you came up on? I think it was around 200cc, right?
That bike is a 240cc 4-stroke. Not a rocket, but made for tight trails. The Sur Ron was surprisingly capable and did some pretty steep hills at a good pace. If it had been a slug that couldn't even keep up with a basic youth dirt bike I certainly wouldn't have gone ahead and bought one after testing yours.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 27 2018 12:29am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 26 2018 10:22pm
You motor heads should look at the data from ASI. It says a lot about the Sur-ron motor. 10 hp is all we are looking at maximum.
Yeah, with 20s there is some more power, but 10 hp is all we can expect. Which is double what we get stock.

It's interesting to me that the best numbers are at about 2000 rpm, which makes me think of variable torque converters and
such. A 2 speed would be nice.
A 2 speed with 100% reduction would be perfect.

Wonder if an IGH could fit between the belt and chain instead of the jackshaft?

10hp would start to be interesting.

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 27 2018 5:33am

Offroader wrote:
Dec 26 2018 6:52pm
No luck with the rear fender :cry: , the fender failed on its first ride. It wasn't my bracket, it was the aluminum bracket on the fender that slowly cracked.

While it worked it was really nice being able to ride over anything and get almost no mud thrown up all over your back. I would say it stopped about 98% of the mud in the rear. It seemed a few drops got by the fender when riding in really wet and muddy dirt.

The fender was also kind of annoying in that it did make some noise when riding over stuff, it was too long I think to not be supported on both sides. I see that its going to take much planning to make a fender that looks good, blocks most mud, and is very stable.

I normally don't use fenders as I mostly ride in the summer where one is not needed. At this point I'm just going to wait to see what someone else comes out with for the bike.

Image
Just swap the bracket to a steel one. Thin Alu is never good where you have flex and vibrations.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by freeflow » Dec 27 2018 7:49am

Allex wrote:
Dec 26 2018 12:30pm
I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike
Coming!
Allex, it sounds like you have more information. You can't just say coming, what do you know? :D

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 27 2018 10:36am

Allex wrote:
Dec 26 2018 12:30pm
I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike
Coming!
:bigthumb:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 27 2018 2:57pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 26 2018 6:52pm
No luck with the rear fender :cry: , the fender failed on its first ride. It wasn't my bracket, it was the aluminum bracket on the fender that slowly cracked.

While it worked it was really nice being able to ride over anything and get almost no mud thrown up all over your back. I would say it stopped about 98% of the mud in the rear. It seemed a few drops got by the fender when riding in really wet and muddy dirt.

The fender was also kind of annoying in that it did make some noise when riding over stuff, it was too long I think to not be supported on both sides. I see that its going to take much planning to make a fender that looks good, blocks most mud, and is very stable.

I normally don't use fenders as I mostly ride in the summer where one is not needed. At this point I'm just going to wait to see what someone else comes out with for the bike.

Image
Can you make a bracket to extend the fender from the seat? I don't think any swingarm mount will work with a fender that long, plus you are adding unsprung weight.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 27 2018 3:11pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 26 2018 6:52pm
No luck with the rear fender :cry: , the fender failed on its first ride. It wasn't my bracket, it was the aluminum bracket on the fender that slowly cracked.

While it worked it was really nice being able to ride over anything and get almost no mud thrown up all over your back. I would say it stopped about 98% of the mud in the rear. It seemed a few drops got by the fender when riding in really wet and muddy dirt.

The fender was also kind of annoying in that it did make some noise when riding over stuff, it was too long I think to not be supported on both sides. I see that its going to take much planning to make a fender that looks good, blocks most mud, and is very stable.

I normally don't use fenders as I mostly ride in the summer where one is not needed. At this point I'm just going to wait to see what someone else comes out with for the bike.

Image
have you looked at mudhugger rear fenders? I think a few ppl are running those on here.. or maybe cut something similar out of plastic ??
example : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1285596
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by StingerRUS » Dec 27 2018 3:37pm

motomoto wrote:
Dec 21 2018 1:57am
It's exactly like my quality. I don't see a difference.sprocket.jpg
Just received 58 tooth sprocket form motomoto and put it on my bike immediately! Thanks motomoto!
Comparison.jpg
Made some comparison table
Table.png

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 27 2018 3:45pm

Allex wrote:
Dec 27 2018 5:33am
Just swap the bracket to a steel one. Thin Alu is never good where you have flex and vibrations.
Good idea, however, the fender flapped around too much, especially the very end which was plastic, so I don't think I want to use this particular fender anymore.


Grantmac wrote:
Dec 27 2018 2:57pm
Can you make a bracket to extend the fender from the seat? I don't think any swingarm mount will work with a fender that long, plus you are adding unsprung weight.
I agree if you put any fender on the swing arm its going to be problematic because of the swing arm movement, as I have discovered. The end of my fender which was plastic would make a flapping sound because the end was like whiplashed when hitting things in the rear.

The issue with attaching the mud guard to the seat is that it starts to make the bike look like a dirt bike. I was looking for something a bit more conspicuous and smaller.
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Dec 27 2018 3:11pm

have you looked at mudhugger rear fenders? I think a few ppl are running those on here.. or maybe cut something similar out of plastic ??
example : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1285596
This may be a good option as it looks really light weight. It would need to be plastic like this through the whole length. This may be worth looking into if it doesn't flap around on the swingarm and make noise.

At this point I'm leaning on not using a rear mud-guard and just not ride when the ground is muddy. What I found is the summer is never an issue as the ground dries within hours after it rains.

The winter takes like 3 days after it rains to be dry enough to ride without constantly riding through mud.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 27 2018 3:59pm

StingerRUS wrote:
Dec 27 2018 3:37pm

Just received 58 tooth sprocket form motomoto and put it on my bike immediately! Thanks motomoto!
Comparison.jpg

Where do you order at?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 27 2018 4:05pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 27 2018 3:59pm
StingerRUS wrote:
Dec 27 2018 3:37pm

Just received 58 tooth sprocket form motomoto and put it on my bike immediately! Thanks motomoto!
Comparison.jpg
Where do you order at?
sur-ronusa.com
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 27 2018 5:33pm

motomoto wrote:
Dec 26 2018 10:22pm
You motor heads should look at the data from ASI. It says a lot about the Sur-ron motor. 10 hp is all we are looking at maximum.
Yeah, with 20s there is some more power, but 10 hp is all we can expect. Which is double what we get stock.

It's interesting to me that the best numbers are at about 2000 rpm, which makes me think of variable torque converters and
such. A 2 speed would be nice.
With this said do you still think the big controller is the way to go? Or is the bac4000 more proportionate? Did ASI have input on this?

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 28 2018 12:06am

I think it was about $100 more for the 8000. We did talk about the 4000 and Martin said we should use the 8000

You are welcome on the sprockets guys !!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Dec 28 2018 2:52am

Rix wrote:
Dec 27 2018 10:36am
Allex wrote:
Dec 26 2018 12:30pm
I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike
Coming!
:bigthumb:
we need specs

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