Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 25 2018 11:43pm

madin88 wrote:
30ft/lbs at which motor current?

500+ amps at about 43 volts.

Why don't you do the testing instead of whining about someone else not doing it? You test the winding resistance and kV and tell us about it.

I spent thousands of dollars to fly to ASI to get the motors tested and you just sit there
and whine about nobody testing the motors....jeezzz

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 12:51am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:30pm
I have been looking at what ERT has been doing and 6.5 kWs is about right for the Sur-ron motor. We got 7770 watts of mechanical power out of the motor on my visit to ASI at 60 volts. An interesting note is that we got 30 ft/lbs of torque out of the motor where a 250cc motocross bike makes only about 20 ft/lbs of torque.
The Alta 2019 Redshift produces 42 ft/lbs at the wheel, with a gear ratio of 3.53:1. So with the same gearing, that would be 105 ft/lbs at the wheel. Crazy! :shock:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chilli P » Dec 26 2018 12:54am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:30pm
I have been looking at what ERT has been doing and 6.5 kWs is about right for the Sur-ron motor. We got 7770 watts of mechanical power out of the motor on my visit to ASI at 60 volts. An interesting note is that we got 30 ft/lbs of torque out of the motor where a 250cc motocross bike makes only about 20 ft/lbs of torque.
This development is exciting to see. That sounds like some decent torque alright, nice. Pretty unbelievable the Luna escapade, sorry to hear you can't get the bike, bad businesses really going on that long without letting you know what was going on.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 26 2018 1:23am

3DTOPO you sound like someone who definitely comes from a bicycle background. I'm the opposite, I've spent +10 years riding cross country off road enduro and some trials. Doing +90km/h off road is not unusual, neither is climbing +500m in a single slope with rock steps along the way. You'd go up that at a snails pace instead of blasting up it at 20-40km/h.
Have you ever actually ridden a trials bike? It's your Sur-Ron but better in every possible way except slightly more noise. I'd put the running expenses and reliability on par with anything electric once you factor in cell life.

Where I am in Canada the Sur-Ron is treated the same as a scooter. So insurance is required and then you can't touch a bike lane/path. If I'm going to deal with that nonsense I'll just take a motorcycle (which I don't).

The motorcyclists who built all the trails locally are slowly being banned from them as the city expands (not where I am yet) while traffic in town is a gridlock. That's where a powerful ebike works great and the Sur-Ron is as useless as a motorcycle but without any of the power.

I'm glad you enjoy it, but I don't think you have enough perspective to call it a motorcycle substitute.

P.S. like ever other bike, the Alta is rated at the crank.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 1:40am

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
3DTOPO you sound like someone who definitely comes from a bicycle background.
True.
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
I'm the opposite, I've spent +10 years riding cross country off road enduro and some trials. Doing +90km/h off road is not unusual, neither is climbing +500m in a single slope with rock steps along the way. You'd go up that at a snails pace instead of blasting up it at 20-40km/h.
I routinely climb the mountain in the backyard. It's about 1,200 vertical meters to the top. It's steep, its technical and, yes, I blast my way up at 20-40 km.
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
Have you ever actually ridden a trials bike? It's your Sur-Ron but better in every possible way except slightly more noise. I'd put the running expenses and reliability on par with anything electric once you factor in cell life.
No, but frankly I'm not interested if it is not electric. Also, I'm not in the market for a new bike - I am perfectly content with the Sur Ron.
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
Where I am in Canada the Sur-Ron is treated the same as a scooter. So insurance is required and then you can't touch a bike lane/path. If I'm going to deal with that nonsense I'll just take a motorcycle (which I don't).

The motorcyclists who built all the trails locally are slowly being banned from them as the city expands (not where I am yet) while traffic in town is a gridlock. That's where a powerful ebike works great and the Sur-Ron is as useless as a motorcycle but without any of the power.
I just took a quick look, and it seems the Sur Ron could be considered a moped or ebike. Specifics vary from province to province. And allowed in bike lanes in Toronto: https://nowtoronto.com/news/scooters-to ... ike-lanes/
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
I'm glad you enjoy it, but I don't think you have enough perspective to call it a motorcycle substitute.
Personally, I don't. But I know of plenty people (both in person and online) with heavy motorcycle backgrounds that are perfectly happy with the Sur Ron.

Besides, as I pointed out, I can keep up with 250cc bikes and have no need (nor is it really possible) to go faster. Aspencreek: how many CC's is the bike you came up on? I think it was around 200cc, right?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 1:47am

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
P.S. like ever other bike, the Alta is rated at the crank.
Why does it have the word "Wheel" then?

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Dec 26 2018 3:22am

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:47am
Why does it have the word "Wheel" then?
You really think thats how it is, and no typo?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 3:30am

madin88 wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:22am
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:47am
Why does it have the word "Wheel" then?
You really think thats how it is, and no typo?
How could that be a typo? It's not like it says "Wheal". Someone very intentionally added the word wheel there.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Dec 26 2018 3:42am

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:30am
How could that be a typo? It's not like it says "Wheal". Someone very intentionally added the word wheel there.
Come on man, do you seriously think this 50HP motorcycle comes with just 42lb-ft at the WHEEL?
What i meant is a mistake in writing and not typo. sorry for my bad english..

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 3:51am

madin88 wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:42am
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:30am
How could that be a typo? It's not like it says "Wheal". Someone very intentionally added the word wheel there.
Come on man, do you seriously think this 50HP motorcycle comes with just 42lb-ft at the WHEEL?
Maybe. Look, this 45HP engine puts out 20.73 lb-ft at the shaft:
Image

So geared 3:1 that would be 60lb-ft at the wheel, definitely more than 42lb-ft, but maybe its 50HP peak power and 35HP sustained. Just like they claim the Sur Ron is 6KW peak - but we all know how much that means.

All I know for sure is that it has the word Wheel where torque is specified.
Last edited by 3DTOPO on Dec 26 2018 4:34am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 4:32am

...and if a 45HP engine puts out 20ft-lb at the shaft, I really doubt the 50HP Alta is putting out 42lb-ft at the shaft.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 26 2018 5:06am

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
I've spent +10 years riding cross country off road enduro and some trials.
Bro... and yet you tell us that a DIY middrive MTB would be much better than a Sur. I can tell you it is not. The riding and handling is a joke compared to the Sur. Sure, you will have more power - but strait lines is probably not your thing at all ;)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 26 2018 10:04am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 25 2018 8:32pm
I paid for a bike on November 26thluna order.png

I got this email a few hours ago after asking for a month about where is my bike, it hasn't shipped.
Gary replied:
Hi Kim, unfortunately the shop has declined to fill your order and will be fully refunding instead.

You’ll see refund notification email soon as it posts, within couple business days.

Sorry for the inconvenience, I assume their decision stems from previous soured business dealings but it’s not something I have much firsthand knowledge of.


-Gary
Luna CS Mgr.
Pretty chicken sh#@ in my book. Just tell me what the plan is. I understand Eric is mad that I tried to get the Sur-ron deal
for 2019. The Factory told me that Luna is the importer for 2019. Congratulations to them. I hope everyone gets good service.
I know I won't, but it's ok. I have lot's of fun projects to do this year. I am starting a new shop separate from the job shop I
have owned for 30 years. I'm excited. I will make a kit for the Sur-ron that will double the stock power as well as other
go fast stuff. Can't wait for a real Sur-ron World Championship race. I will be there, kicking ass.

The Sur-ron import deal would have bogged down my life with customer support, when what I truly have to offer the world
is my creativity, and ability to make those things, and offer them to others for their gain.
That's a crap way to do business. Sure, they can refuse the sale, but to hold your money for a month before doing so??? I'd be tempted to send them a bill for interest.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 26 2018 11:19am

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am

Where I am in Canada the Sur-Ron is treated the same as a scooter. So insurance is required and then you can't touch a bike lane/path. If I'm going to deal with that nonsense I'll just take a motorcycle (which I don't).

The motorcyclists who built all the trails locally are slowly being banned from them as the city expands (not where I am yet) while traffic in town is a gridlock. That's where a powerful ebike works great and the Sur-Ron is as useless as a motorcycle but without any of the power.

I'm glad you enjoy it, but I don't think you have enough perspective to call it a motorcycle substitute.

P.S. like ever other bike, the Alta is rated at the crank.
That seems to be the same deal in most places in USA. The Sur-Ron requires insurance and you shouldn't be using it in the bike lanes.

However, nobody follows that rule and they use the Sur-Ron illegally because nobody really makes a big deal about it because its not gas powered, loud, and large.

This is where the Sur-Run shines is that although it is pushing the limits in size, no pedals, and noise, for an ebike, it is still passable in most places to not cause too much trouble. This means you should be able to use the Sur-Ron on those bike trails without issue, although it may be illegal.

The next step up in an electric bike above a Sur-Ron would probably be the Alta. But that looks way too big and like a dirt bike. You would have lots of issues running this on the bike trails, but the Sur-Ron will be passable.

Now if you are in a rural area where most people run 250cc dirt bikes, then it would make sense to go with something larger. That is what Rix did. I actually always wondered why Rix ran ebikes in the desert, but he eventually moved to an Alta because it made more sense as I guess he wanted to stick with electric.

I don't know trials bike well enough to know if you can ride them in the bike lanes without causing trouble. I didn't know they were so quiet and small for a gas powered bike.

The picture is of an Alta electric bike.
Image
Last edited by Offroader on Dec 26 2018 11:30am, edited 1 time in total.

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 26 2018 11:28am

Here is the test results from ASI.
Surron Dyno Run 2018-11-26 (1).xlsx
(281.9 KiB) Downloaded 215 times

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 26 2018 12:16pm

Now if you are in a rural area where most people run 250cc dirt bikes, then it would make sense to go with something larger. That is what Rix did. I actually always wondered why Rix ran ebikes in the desert, but he eventually moved to an Alta because it made more sense as I guess he wanted to stick with electric.
You are correct about my move to the Alta, but it wasn't just one reason, more like several reasons. The biggest reason I moved to the Alta was I wanted the ability to climb gnarlier terrain and see more of the off road world that involved climbing mountains. More power, bigger battery, and better suspension all played an important reason in my decision. It should also be noted that I wouldn't have bought an Alta if I couldn't get it licenses and insured. This allows me to ride from my garage which I do when I can't dedicate several hours to haul my bike to the trail head and ride. All that said, I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike with 14kw of power and a 3.6kwh battery. 50MPH top speed would be ideal. A 21x1.60 MC rim on the front and a 18x1.85 MC rim on the rear with enough tire clearance to run 4.0-4.5" wide MC tires on the rear and upto 3.25" wide tires on the front. Throw some lightweight MC suspension on the front and rear for good measure. I believe if Alta just scaled up the lightbee, this could be achieved and be just under 200# of ready to ride. I would gladly pay $8,000 or so for something like this, which is totally feasible given the price of the current SurRon.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 26 2018 12:30pm

I really wish SurRon would make a bigger version of their bike
Coming!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 26 2018 12:45pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:51am
madin88 wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:42am
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 26 2018 3:30am
How could that be a typo? It's not like it says "Wheal". Someone very intentionally added the word wheel there.
Come on man, do you seriously think this 50HP motorcycle comes with just 42lb-ft at the WHEEL?
Maybe. Look, this 45HP engine puts out 20.73 lb-ft at the shaft:
Image

So geared 3:1 that would be 60lb-ft at the wheel, definitely more than 42lb-ft, but maybe its 50HP peak power and 35HP sustained. Just like they claim the Sur Ron is 6KW peak - but we all know how much that means.

All I know for sure is that it has the word Wheel where torque is specified.
If you look just above that bullet point list they state it's at the crank. Although personally I find that questionable unless it drops off rapidly. Because if it's peak HP is at the quoted 14000rpm then it should only be making ~18 lb-ft at the crank which is a reasonable number. Which given the overall reduction of ~15:1 and ignoring losses put it around 270 lb-ft at the wheel, also reasonable.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 26 2018 12:50pm

Allex wrote:
Dec 26 2018 5:06am
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 1:23am
I've spent +10 years riding cross country off road enduro and some trials.
Bro... and yet you tell us that a DIY middrive MTB would be much better than a Sur. I can tell you it is not. The riding and handling is a joke compared to the Sur. Sure, you will have more power - but strait lines is probably not your thing at all ;)
Better because of where I can ride it and it's lower weight. I'd rather be on a proper motorcycle (preferably trials) than either one. But since I want to make use of bicycle infrastructure and access I need something which is still a bicycle. Around here that means functioning peddles and minimal bodywork.
The Sur-Ron can't replace my motorcycle and can't go where I can take a bicycle.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 26 2018 12:55pm

Maybe with 30 ft/lbs of torque at the motor there is 220 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheel of the Sur-ron?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 26 2018 5:31pm

I haven't run the numbers but I assume that's the gear reduction to back sprocket. It would go the other way from sprocket to wheel.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 26 2018 6:52pm

No luck with the rear fender :cry: , the fender failed on its first ride. It wasn't my bracket, it was the aluminum bracket on the fender that slowly cracked.

While it worked it was really nice being able to ride over anything and get almost no mud thrown up all over your back. I would say it stopped about 98% of the mud in the rear. It seemed a few drops got by the fender when riding in really wet and muddy dirt.

The fender was also kind of annoying in that it did make some noise when riding over stuff, it was too long I think to not be supported on both sides. I see that its going to take much planning to make a fender that looks good, blocks most mud, and is very stable.

I normally don't use fenders as I mostly ride in the summer where one is not needed. At this point I'm just going to wait to see what someone else comes out with for the bike.

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 26 2018 7:09pm

Just wanted to clarify that the Sur-Ron has decent power, it has more than enough power/speed to keep up in city traffic, to climb anything no matter how steep. By no means is it a slow bike. There really isn't any urgency for me to upgrade the power.

The suspension is quite amazing on the bike and it is much better than my hub motor ebike, it just rides over the harshest terrain very smoothly. The rear suspension seems to be as smooth as the front, which I thought would never be possible.

However, what I think everybody needs to understand is that it is highly unlikely that Sur-Ron will increase the power/speed of the bike above what it is now. The reason is the bike is built with bicycle components and it isn't built to ride above 50MPH, if even 40MPH. The front fork alone weighs like 6lbs, think about that for a second.

Could you imagine if Sur-Ron put out to the public a bike that can hit 60MPH with bicycle components like the brakes and suspension it comes with? Those components were not built for those kind of speeds and what you would have is people who will buy the bike and start pushing the bike like it was built like a 250cc 220lbs dirt bike.

Think of some recent posts here about people wanting the Sur-Ron to do what a larger dirt bike will do, imagine if you gave them Sur-Ron modified to do 15KW, they may very well kill themselves on the bike.

This would be dangerous and possibly criminal, I don't think Sur-Ron wants the liability or isses. The only way you are going to get any more power out of the bike is if you mod the bike yourself for more power.

The only way you are going to get a faster Sur-Ron bike from Sur-Ron is if they build a larger bike with dirt bike suspension and components.

Will I be modifying my bike to do 8 or 10KW? You bet. But I fully understand the limits of the bike. I surely would not give my 10KW bike to a pro dirt bike rider and let him treat start doing crazy jumps and stuff with it, when he does not understand the limits of the bicycle components its built with.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 26 2018 7:23pm

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 26 2018 12:50pm
Around here that means functioning peddles and minimal bodywork.
Install the pedal kit then. :wink:

As for bodywork, I don't think there is any?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 26 2018 10:22pm

You motor heads should look at the data from ASI. It says a lot about the Sur-ron motor. 10 hp is all we are looking at maximum.
Yeah, with 20s there is some more power, but 10 hp is all we can expect. Which is double what we get stock.

It's interesting to me that the best numbers are at about 2000 rpm, which makes me think of variable torque converters and
such. A 2 speed would be nice.
Last edited by motomoto on Dec 26 2018 10:37pm, edited 1 time in total.

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