new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

but I would like to be able to push it 40 mph if I have to for short bursts.

This is what I replied to. I wrote just about any setup can be configured to do it.
In english we are talking peak here. Unless you are a terrible builder or abuser it is very easy to do.

The 25-30mph cruise should be easy, and honestly anything above that and the danger levels rise exponentially.

More amps will mean higher stress(torque) on the drivetrain plain and simple. On a 72v system you can still get the desired wheel torque by using a higher cog on the rear. But if you use a low voltage high amp setup, all the torque is there from the motor shaft, and goes through every component, including the internal reduction gear(hence bbshd blowing up at 52v 60A but doing fine with 72v 40a).

Aside from that, let's talk about the battery itself. You are building a 180 cell pf battery. So it should be good for 3.6*10*180=6480w peak. This can be entertained with a 90a controller at 72v. If you ever used this battery with a different motor, this is all good and reasonable on both numbers.
With a 52v system, you would need over 120a to make use of your 6.5kw battery, which leaves you with much fewer and more expensive options in terms of BMS, controller and motor. To extract 5kw peak you would need 96A from your controller and the 3kw cyclone not handle it realistically, so it would be untapped performance, forever. With 72v only 69a is needed for 5000w, many people run this setup.
I would certainly not leave any performance on the table.
I think you know even the stock controller is capable of doing 72v, so with the 40a one, you would be having 2880w instead of 2080w from day one.

In practice, if you aren't interested in shifting before and after every stop light, a motor with a broader power range is more hub-like, far better to commute with, which is what the 72v setup gives you. Yes, you can do the same on a 52v bike in a lower gear with a higher amp controller, but you would be changing the drivetrain parts more often.
 
I don't think I would mind shifting because I'm working on modifying my integrated Shimano thumb shifters to have cable pull compatible with my IGH.

I'm only 36 cells away from an 18s12p setup and I could try 18s 6p to see if the higher voltage is worth it.
 
Smoke said:
I don't think I would mind shifting because I'm working on modifying my integrated Shimano thumb shifters to have cable pull compatible with my IGH.

I'm only 36 cells away from an 18s12p setup and I could try 18s 6p to see if the higher voltage is worth it.

180 cells already is very heavy, I wouldn't be getting more, for commuting. It will make stopping even more difficult.
 
According to Shimano, my 203mm disks will make my brakes too powerful and even with 216 cells, that pack will only weigh about 25 lbs.

A cargo bike is pretty heavy either way but I think I would rather stop sprung weight than a big heavy hub motor but people seem to stop hub motors all the time.

I'm pretty sure that won't be an issue unless I totally fail at bleeding my brakes.
 
Smoke said:
According to Shimano, my 203mm disks will make my brakes too powerful and even with 216 cells, that pack will only weigh about 25 lbs.

A cargo bike is pretty heavy either way but I think I would rather stop sprung weight than a big heavy hub motor but people seem to stop hub motors all the time.

I'm pretty sure that won't be an issue unless I totally fail at bleeding my brakes.

Talking from experience, an extra 15kg on the bike(not your body) with completely change how it brakes. I have 203 brakes with 26 wheels and they would stop super fast, added 12kg, I can't lock the front only on dirt or going very slow.
Friend with cargo bike, he has downhill brakes. I tried his brakes and I almost flew off the bike it was so strong. He added 18kg including motor and battery, now, he is looking to buy new brakes. If you don't need the extra huge battery for the commute, you shouldn't get it. Your motor won't be able to use all that power anyway.
You are much better off saving the money and weight and spending it on reliability upgrades, like better freewheel, or maybe a bluetooth controller module if you don't have one.
 
khorse said:
Any word on who's selling better motor mounts for the 3000 at the moment? Google brings me threads here for ones no longer sold, Luna doesn't have any in (and don't reply to questions about it)...

I used to think the standard mounts were fine, got used to seeing them twist a little bit. But I've been having problems with the motor freewheel slipping for no reason (not worn chain/freewheel) and eventually figured out what's going on. The flexing has gradually loosened up the bottom bracket lockrings, letting it twist more, until eventually it's flexing so much the chain detentions.

Now that's a real mess for me because my chain fell to bits when I took it off to investigate, and being in holland half links are hard to find. I need this bike for my job.

Taking every failure as an opportunity to upgrade to a stronger part.


Seems the AFT is the only one selling upgraded cyclone 3000w kits brackets ceramic bearings etc https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87658
 
I'm actually thinking about trying no freewheel if possible, my crank and rear hub already freewheel and my crank is a Patterson so nothing to upgrade there.

I intend to get a Phaserunner although it sounds like I may want to re-think that.

While I do intend to save money everywhere that I can do it without sacrificing quality, my battery budget isn't eating in to my controller budget or anywhere else where durability or efficiency are a concern.

I'll be happy if I'm under $2,500 when it's all said and done if it's a good commuter and good for longer trips too.
 
Why not, the phaserunner is now listed as 90v 50a max. It should be fine.

What's the goal with no freewheel? You still won't get regen as afaik there is an internal one at the planetary gears.
 
The goal of no freewheel is that I would have to try really hard to break a keyed shaft sprocket and I could get a sprocket with less teeth for higher motor rpm with smaller hub sprocket and crank sprocket.

Although I don't have mine in hand yet, it's my understanding that the stock setup has a freewheel adapter that fits on the keyed shaft of the gear box, not a freewheel inside the planatary reduction.

While regen isn't a big goal for me, it could help take stress off the brakes during descents.

If the drag of pedaling unpowered isn't too high, it seems like it might be a good trade off.
 
If that sounds weird, it's because I'm not going to be using my crank as a reduction gear for the motor, I'm only going to have one chain. An 11 tooth motor sprocket might be a good thing for me compared to a 13 tooth freewheel.

It's a different way of doing things but with a 20" wheel I think my gear ratios are going to be similar or a little better than the kit setup on a more conventional bike.
 
I too am interested a 11t non freewheeling sprocket, I figure if the batteries die I can just remove the primary chain.
In theory with a 3spd fixie IGH you could run regen with the cranks freewheeling.
 
A few months ago, I bought cyclone-tw's 4kw Elite e-bike and have spent more time repairing than driving. Until today I had the following problems:

- two engine defective
battery overheats after 15 minutes cutoff
-Water caused toltal failure
-The rear hub broke after very few rides
-Three bolts of the rear suspension are too short
-The right gear shift was impossible to use because the throttle was too big to handle.
-The rear derailleur stopped working blocked the chain and destroyed the engine.
-The brakes had to be readjusted with washers
-The chain was too short and blocked
-The front derailleur is extremely difficult to adjust because of the frame / engine.
-The pedals are not the same distance from the frame.

The first engine damage happened in a slope with 32T front and 42T rear. The gears were destroyed and the shaft bent. Paco said I should drive only with the highest gear (say something before ..). The second engine (paid, Cyclone does not give a proper warranty ... only a limited warranty on the engine, controller, battery, and when it doesn`t work it is the fault of the buyer) was caused by a malfunction of the rear derailleur, which blocked the chain and completely destroyed the engine.
The battery overheated and the bike was useless a ride was only possible with long breaks. The partially paid replacement battery... I am tired of the bike and writing about it, I could describe more defects and wrong parts which I paid and were sent to, but I do not want to deal with cyclone anymore.

So think three times before you buy something from cyclone.

greetings and sorry for my English
Jonas
 
I hope you changed that battery/cells that showed rubbing and possibly dents on the bottom as it is a fire hazard in that state. The elite bike should be sold as a frame only and for advanced builders.
 
Grantmac said:
I too am interested a 11t non freewheeling sprocket, I figure if the batteries die I can just remove the primary chain.
In theory with a 3spd fixie IGH you could run regen with the cranks freewheeling.

I got my motor a few days ago. Spinning the sprocket by hand, I'm not sure if the fixed sprocket would work because it seemed quite difficult to turn.

I plan to use it primarily in pedal assist mode which should be fine and allow regen if I have a fixed sprocket but if my battery dies it might create too much drag to pedal.

It might not be a big issue because my battery will be about 1.9kwh, I would have to ride pretty far before the battery dies. Worst case I would have to re-route my chain and shorten it to bypass the motor before I could ride home.

Before I worry about that I have to get pedal assist working right so I'll worry about that first and try a fixed sprocket after PAS is working just right.

As far as reliability goes, I'm going to use no deraileurs, my chain line will never change and hopefully my chain will never want to leave it. As long as I can keep the motor happy, I'm not expecting any issues because I'm not using any other Cyclone kit parts.
 
Should I run out of battery I'd just remove the primary chain.
I agree that pedaling through the motor would be extremely tiring, then again I'm trying to build a bike I can pedal along with but always running at least a little assist.
 
So after finally getting a replacement half link chain here in the netherlands, where nobody sells them, I've put my motor kit back together and it's still slipping under even light acceleration.

I can't figure it out. At first I thought the chain was worn out, because it broke when I took it off. But then I noticed the motor mounts were loose, and figured that was the problem. The motor freewheel has no measurable wear on it and engages as it should when I hold it in my hand. If I lift the back wheel there's no slipping, only when I'm riding it.

The only thing I can think is either the motor freewheel's pawls are worn out and slipping, or the gearbox is. I'm going to try replacing the motor freewheel first.

The only problem is I don't know what to order. I can get the freewheel and it's adapter off the motor, but not separate them. Cyclone-TW sells the complete assembly together in two versions, CW14T and CCW14T but don't explain the difference.
 
khorse said:
So after finally getting a replacement half link chain here in the netherlands, where nobody sells them, I've put my motor kit back together and it's still slipping under even light acceleration.

If your old chain was worn and elongated, then the chain in turn wore out your sprockets. Worn sprockets will misbehave even with a brand new chain.

Putting much greater than human power through a pedal drive system causes the components to wear much faster than normal. You can mitigate it somewhat by using the largest sprockets possible both front and rear.
 
Yea, somehow my smaller 11-28 steel cassette cogs got worn even by a chain that disintegrated after 500km (didn't even stretch to .75, just kept ripping). The smaller cogs I barely used are skipping with a fresh chain, but the bigger 32-50t cogs on the same cassette are fine. Even though I used them a lot more, I guess the stress is better distributed. Seems like the best way to go about it is buy 3 chains for 1 set of cogs front and rear and rotate them so they all wear evenly.
 
Chalo said:
khorse said:
So after finally getting a replacement half link chain here in the netherlands, where nobody sells them, I've put my motor kit back together and it's still slipping under even light acceleration.

If your old chain was worn and elongated, then the chain in turn wore out your sprockets. Worn sprockets will misbehave even with a brand new chain.

Putting much greater than human power through a pedal drive system causes the components to wear much faster than normal. You can mitigate it somewhat by using the largest sprockets possible both front and rear.

I'm well aware of this, I used to earn a living fixing bikes. This is why I have to repeat that I checked the motor freewheel, it isn't worn. Worn teeth are easily visible.

In the end it's turned out that the 14t cog on the cassette was the culprit. I'd originally dismissed it being a problem in the bicycle side of the drivetrain because I'd only been using that cog for all of 8 hours total riding. (I don't have a shifter cable fitted, I'd originally ran on the middle cog but changed it as an experiment)

I suppose that says something about the quality of this cassette!
 
What was the nature of the damage? Normal wear, bent teeth impinging on its neighbors, or something else?

I got a 14t outer position sprocket for my BBS02 bike. I would use a bigger outer sprocket if I could get my hands on one, because 46/14 is too high a ratio to be of use to me.
 
Other than that it's happened in an extremely short amount of time, it's just normal wear. The bike chain still measures up as being brand new. I can only guess that it's just a very soft metal, which is surprising because it's a proper shimano part.
 
Just posted a build thread entitled Specialized Enduro 2014 Cyclone 3000 build in E-Bike Build Threads / Photos & Video.

I included a brief description, pictures and a link to a video. Thanks very much to everyone for all your contributions - couldn't have done it without you.

m4zRlXml.jpg
 
Hi guys
What is the maximum voltage you are running with the stock controller that came with the cyclone?
Rated 36-72V, but wondering if anyone has pushed it beyond 72V??
 
ebike11 said:
Hi guys
What is the maximum voltage you are running with the stock controller that came with the cyclone?
Rated 36-72V, but wondering if anyone has pushed it beyond 72V??

Caps are 80v on older ones, 100v on new ones. So no point pushing it past 72v nominal which will be 84v max already.
 
Tommm,
Caps are 80v on older ones, 100v on new ones. So no point pushing it past 72v nominal which will be 84v max already.

The opening page of the emotor program when used on the programmable controllers displays 87 volts as 100%. When running my C4000 at 100volts which is full charge, the emotor program displays voltage at 118%. But my latest C3000 kit purchase, coming with the motor equipped with a water proof plug and stock controller, when hooked to 100volts will not move but shows the voltage at 118%. Is this a safety feature imposed by the throttle or the controller?

The controller labeled as HD or 60 amps along with an unknown throttle does run one of my C3000 builds at 100v all the time. Jim of SBP says he will find out from Cyclone which set up of controller & throttle to use on the 3000 motor to operate at 100 v.
 
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