New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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mctubster   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Jan 03 2019 11:57pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Jan 03 2019 6:33pm
My first impression is holy hell it's even louder than I feared it would be after reading this thread. Even in assist level 1, even lightly pedaling, it sounds like an RC car. Really disappointing and it might be a bit of a deal-breaker if the opensource firmware doesn't help somehow. Unfortunately I don't know what else I'd use since I don't know of any other torque-sensing mid-drives in its weight class that don't require a custom frame. Huge bummer.
Having come from a BBS01B which was almost silent the TSDZ2 is a little on the nose in the noise department.

Yes they are loud. There are people claiming they have quiet copies, but I have yet to see/hear evidence on youtube ;)

I plan to have a really good go at quieting mine next month once I have moved. I haven't pulled apart yet other than the chain side where I added some more grease to the secondary reduction with no real change.

On the plus side the opensource firmware is amazing, the new color screen coming and the torque sensor means I will never go back. I have ridden a bosch mid drive and it is quite noisy too. Maybe the Bafangs are the outlier?

Mine is in a Cargo bike ... though I just spotted a German Cargo bike with integrated Steps mid drive, hydraulic disks, suspension, carbon belt drive and electric infinitely variable rear hub ... for the price of a small car :) Not sure the wife will go for it but far superior tech to mine

Cheers

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Jan 04 2019 1:09am

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Jan 03 2019 9:09pm
Rydon wrote:
Jan 03 2019 8:20pm
Some motors are louder than others. The open source firmware in my experience is nominally quieter and more efficient.
I wish I knew what the variable was so I could try to make mine quieter. I'm going to need a lot more than a nominal improvement to get it down to what I'd like (I'm used to a BBS02, which is insanely quieter than this).
The stock firmware is locked into a maximum wattage and none of the stock displays can change it. You can reprogram it to different max watt levels but that is as hard as doing the opensource and the opensource firmware is much better. There is work being done on the open source thread by Marcoq to allow you to use the VLCD6 display with the opensource firmware.
Supposedly the VLCD6 can change the max power, but I haven't been able to get the buttons pressed in the right way. I have an LCD3 and flashed it already and made the connector to flash the controller, I just wanted to get a few miles in with everything stock first to have a baseline for comparison. Yeah, I'm the guy in the other thread who's planning to try to bring marcoq's vlcd6 work into casainho's tree.
You are spoiled by your Bafang mid-drive. :) They are the quietest out there. Bosch, Yamaha, and Brose are all noisy by comparison.

The VLCD5 has a setup screen for amps. It doesn't actually do anything. People have wasted more time screwing around with it and trying to feel a difference. Shame on TongSheng. I assume the VLCD6 is the same. If you get it in the Power Select mode I doubt it actually does anything.

Ron Paul's Blimp   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ron Paul's Blimp » Jan 04 2019 3:15am

mctubster wrote:
Jan 03 2019 11:57pm
Yes they are loud. There are people claiming they have quiet copies, but I have yet to see/hear evidence on youtube ;)

I plan to have a really good go at quieting mine next month once I have moved. I haven't pulled apart yet other than the chain side where I added some more grease to the secondary reduction with no real change.
Nice .. I hope you'll keep track of your progress and post a lot about it.
Mine is in a Cargo bike ... though I just spotted a German Cargo bike with integrated Steps mid drive, hydraulic disks, suspension, carbon belt drive and electric infinitely variable rear hub ... for the price of a small car :) Not sure the wife will go for it but far superior tech to mine

Cheers
:) I kind of enjoy the DIY project aspect of it. It's too bad the mid-drive market seems to be moving away from conversion kits and towards custom frames.
Rydon wrote:
Jan 04 2019 1:09am
You are spoiled by your Bafang mid-drive. :) They are the quietest out there. Bosch, Yamaha, and Brose are all noisy by comparison.
Oh interesting. I assumed the big-name motors were similarly quiet. I wish Tongsheng would reverse engineer whatever Bafang did to get that noise level. It's just not even close.
The VLCD5 has a setup screen for amps. It doesn't actually do anything. People have wasted more time screwing around with it and trying to feel a difference. Shame on TongSheng. I assume the VLCD6 is the same. If you get it in the Power Select mode I doubt it actually does anything.
Ah thanks for saving me the hassle of messing with it any more.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by elem » Jan 04 2019 5:44am

The VLCD5 has a setup screen for amps. It doesn't actually do anything. People have wasted more time screwing around with it and trying to feel a difference. Shame on TongSheng. I assume the VLCD6 is the same. If you get it in the Power Select mode I doubt it actually does anything.
No, it work .. i m using a 14A setting and you can see that all levels are decrement from the max current .

Max current is 18 A , it do nothing if you select more than 18A but it work if you decrement A .

I was using a 13/14A set up because stock firmware doesn t implemented a current ramp and at lvl2 and more it was too strong and dangerous in mountain biking ( specialy trial using ) .

My 2 bike are frame modified and 26"" full suspended 32T 11/40, other one is 27.5 boost and 36T 11/40 for friend use .

I just move my 2 bike to open source firmware, one with VLCD5 and marcoq set up and now it s exact that now with this firmware setup screen for amp do nothing, second with open firmware and LCD3 and curent limit could be decrement from display .

my report are on the other tread .
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .
https://www.strava.com/athletes/20806862

thineight   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jan 04 2019 8:07am

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Jan 03 2019 9:09pm
Yeah, I'm the guy in the other thread who's planning to try to bring marcoq's vlcd6 work into casainho's tree.
I'm with you in this task!! :thumb:
Otherwise I feel we are missing a train...
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 04 2019 1:10pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Jan 03 2019 6:33pm

My first impression is holy hell it's even louder than I feared it would be after reading this thread.
Do a 100 miles or so and the motor quietens down somewhat and your ear gets used to it. What used to be a bit of noisy motor now seems to be pretty normal. No it will never get as quiet as the Bafung series as they are even quieter than the Bosch and Yamaha units I have ridden.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Jan 04 2019 1:15pm

The newer version of the motor with the helical gear is a good bit quieter than the older one with the straight cut gear. But neither are as quite as a Bafang. However, they perform so much better that a Bafang once you install the open source firmware. My Bafang bbs01 is going up for sale.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Jan 04 2019 1:17pm

Has anyone tried that 100mm or 120mm adapter axle from futurebike in Italy. I’m interesting in building a fat cargo bike but it will need the longer version of the pedal axle.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by flufferty » Jan 04 2019 3:15pm

Bartman wrote:
Jan 04 2019 1:17pm
Has anyone tried that 100mm or 120mm adapter axle from futurebike in Italy. I’m interesting in building a fat cargo bike but it will need the longer version of the pedal axle.
I am running a 100mm kit on my fatbike (non-cargo). It was easy to install and works as expected! :)

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Marin   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Marin » Jan 04 2019 3:59pm

I’m running a 120mm kit on a 100mm fatbike, its really a nice machine.
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Jan 04 2019 4:24pm

Wahoo! Finally made it to the end of the topic! A long but very interesting read that is.

Thanks to all of the people who have taken the time to share their experiences and a huge and respectful thanks to @casainho for his work.

I have ordered a 36v version of the motor for testing purposes that will arrive in a few weeks.
I will test it at it's default state first and then I will play around with the unit to see what can be done to make it better, more reliable, more silent, etc.

Of course I will share my experience over here ;)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Jan 04 2019 9:30pm

elem wrote:
Jan 04 2019 5:44am
The VLCD5 has a setup screen for amps. It doesn't actually do anything. People have wasted more time screwing around with it and trying to feel a difference. Shame on TongSheng. I assume the VLCD6 is the same. If you get it in the Power Select mode I doubt it actually does anything.
No, it work .. i m using a 14A setting and you can see that all levels are decrement from the max current .

Max current is 18 A , it do nothing if you select more than 18A but it work if you decrement A .

I was using a 13/14A set up because stock firmware doesn t implemented a current ramp and at lvl2 and more it was too strong and dangerous in mountain biking ( specialy trial using ) .

My 2 bike are frame modified and 26"" full suspended 32T 11/40, other one is 27.5 boost and 36T 11/40 for friend use .

I just move my 2 bike to open source firmware, one with VLCD5 and marcoq set up and now it s exact that now with this firmware setup screen for amp do nothing, second with open firmware and LCD3 and curent limit could be decrement from display .

my report are on the other tread .
Interesting. Must have something to do with the firmware from TongSheng. We have tried it on a number of motors and it did not work. Also, many other users reported this earlier in this thread. Playing with amps from the VLCD5 did not work. TongSheng does lock out certain features on different versions and releases of their motors so I believe you when you say it worked for you.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rvs4 » Jan 06 2019 1:44am

I set up a 52v 750w tonsheng today with a 52v 13ah u.p.p. battery.. only turns on for a split second then turns off. What could I be doing wrong??

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Jan 06 2019 3:03am

Rvs4 wrote:
Jan 06 2019 1:44am
I set up a 52v 750w tonsheng today with a 52v 13ah u.p.p. battery.. only turns on for a split second then turns off. What could I be doing wrong??
I had the same problem. 52V battery and 52V tsdz2.

It turned out that even though the motor was marked 52V it had 48V firmware installed. Apparently a batch left the factory that way, mine wasn't the only one.

I fixed it by flashing 52V firmware. Merely going into the firmware and editing voltage limits did not work. After the firmware flash it works perfectly.

The way to check this is to discharge the battery until the voltage is below 54.6V (full charge voltage for 48v battery) if your system then works this is your problem.

Eco-ebike.com has the files, instructions, and a video.

ReSa   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ReSa » Jan 06 2019 3:39pm

Hi all! That was a long read :)

I’m planning to install a tsdz2 on my cargo bike, but i have two worries that you might be able to help me with:

1. Bottom bracket play: I will need to apply a 5mm spacer to compensate for the chainstay and there seems to be a 0.5mm play between the motor axis and the inner diameter of the bb.
I’m worried that the force and weight of the bike could cause a wobble due to the axis shifting in the bb, no matter how hard you tension the main ring.

Does anyone have that experience? Or am I unnecessarily worried?

2. Waterproofing/rust issues: the bike is always parked outside, so it will inevitably get wet from time to time. Are there any issues to be expected? Is the motor, or the xh-18 display prone to rust and failure due to water?

I highly appreciate all your comments and experiences!

I’m very much looking forward to the build project :)

mctubster   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Jan 06 2019 8:04pm

ReSa wrote:
Jan 06 2019 3:39pm
Hi all! That was a long read :)

I’m planning to install a tsdz2 on my cargo bike, but i have two worries that you might be able to help me with:

1. Bottom bracket play: I will need to apply a 5mm spacer to compensate for the chainstay and there seems to be a 0.5mm play between the motor axis and the inner diameter of the bb.
I’m worried that the force and weight of the bike could cause a wobble due to the axis shifting in the bb, no matter how hard you tension the main ring.

Does anyone have that experience? Or am I unnecessarily worried?
I had a 2mm gap in my cargo bike. I printed a PLA spacer to centre it. 0.5mm might be a bit thin to hang together though maybe ok. Since it is only under compression if at all it won't go anywhere etc
2. Waterproofing/rust issues: the bike is always parked outside, so it will inevitably get wet from time to time. Are there any issues to be expected? Is the motor, or the xh-18 display prone to rust and failure due to water?
I would be concerned about this for the display and battery. I wonder about the buttons too if in a lot of rain. Plastic bag over the display?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jan 07 2019 2:47am

ReSa wrote:
Jan 06 2019 3:39pm
Hi all! That was a long read :)

I’m planning to install a tsdz2 on my cargo bike, but i have two worries that you might be able to help me with:

1. Bottom bracket play: I will need to apply a 5mm spacer to compensate for the chainstay and there seems to be a 0.5mm play between the motor axis and the inner diameter of the bb.
I’m worried that the force and weight of the bike could cause a wobble due to the axis shifting in the bb, no matter how hard you tension the main ring.

Does anyone have that experience? Or am I unnecessarily worried?

2. Waterproofing/rust issues: the bike is always parked outside, so it will inevitably get wet from time to time. Are there any issues to be expected? Is the motor, or the xh-18 display prone to rust and failure due to water?

I highly appreciate all your comments and experiences!

I’m very much looking forward to the build project :)
I had the same gap between BB and the motor axle in one of the bikes, it's quite annoying as it feels loose and "soft" while pedaling.. I put a set of small wedges (cut from the ones you put in the window frames before you fit the glass if this can help) and the problem was gone, as reported the wedges works in compression therefore they are ok as long as they are stiff enough.

Regarding the bike outside.. it's definitely not a good idea for the bike itself and its moving parts, and also for the electric parts of the kit. Anyway if you remove the battery while parked remember to protect the contacts.. mine for examples are shaped in a way that a little pool is created when the battery is away and the water may stop there.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

ReSa   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ReSa » Jan 07 2019 6:04am

thanks for your input!

Very creative solution with the wedges, but I'm looking for a durable solution for a daily used, loaded cargo bike..., so DIY-ing with wedges seems like a sub-optimal situation...
The battery terminal will be placed in a closed off spot, so I'm not worried about the electrical part fortunately :)

Any other experiences?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Jan 07 2019 4:48pm

ReSa wrote:
Jan 07 2019 6:04am
thanks for your input!

Very creative solution with the wedges, but I'm looking for a durable solution for a daily used, loaded cargo bike..., so DIY-ing with wedges seems like a sub-optimal situation...
The battery terminal will be placed in a closed off spot, so I'm not worried about the electrical part fortunately :)

Any other experiences?
I think using wedges is a great idea, assuming they are made from nylon / plastic which would be very incompressible. The deluxe version would be a thin metal spacer. Here is one I bought to space my bottom bracket from 55mm to 54mm (so it is approx .5mm thick) to fit an eccentric bottom bracket

Image

thineight   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jan 08 2019 3:04am

I had very little space to fill, my best option was a metal sheet like the one shown here above, but
1. or it perfect fits otherwise you just reduce the gap
2. I did not have it

I just had those wedges so I was in a kind of Apollo13 situation. :lol:
Wedges will find the perfect lock due to its shape (then you cut them to length), in addition they get more inside while tightening the big closure nut, so it solved my issue (they go inside by about 2-4 mm).
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

docdelete   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by docdelete » Jan 08 2019 12:50pm

--- as an aside ---- I've just tried to opt in for a 48V 750w TSDZ2 and no-one on Aliexpress seems to list it today. I only reviewed the options three days ago and there were plenty of sellers. Can anyone else bear witness to this? I'm in the UK.

I was going to order from recycles-ebike.com but they've not replied to a query email I sent them a week ago.

Any thoughts anyone?

SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Jan 08 2019 5:00pm

docdelete wrote:
Jan 08 2019 12:50pm
--- as an aside ---- I've just tried to opt in for a 48V 750w TSDZ2 and no-one on Aliexpress seems to list it today. I only reviewed the options three days ago and there were plenty of sellers. Can anyone else bear witness to this? I'm in the UK.

I was going to order from recycles-ebike.com but they've not replied to a query email I sent them a week ago.

Any thoughts anyone?
As long as you're still in the EU (hurry...) you can get one at PSW Power: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-4c-gj4p

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by docdelete » Jan 08 2019 5:27pm

SlowCo wrote:
Jan 08 2019 5:00pm

As long as you're still in the EU (hurry...) you can get one at PSW Power: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-4c-gj4p
Thanks, very helpful. One question: the recycle-ebikes people boast that they sell 18A controllers. I see PSPower state 15A. Should I be bothered by this?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Jan 08 2019 5:34pm

No.
Read back in this thread what is possible with the firmware.


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