Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Smoke said:

I'm planning on doing 40 mph when I have to but regularly cruising between 20-30 on streets with speed limits between 25-35 mph.

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That seems generally sensible except that doing 40 mph on relatively flat ground may draw attention to you that you don't want. And I'd wonder whether that the situation where you do 40 is really necessary or if it is simply more convenient. For instance, I have one stretch where I tend to go fast (28-30) since it is a 40 mph street and there is no bike path. But I could instead ride on the sidewalk at a slower rate and be generally safer.

Smoke said:

Exhaustion doesn't improve that situation at all but a bit more speed and a more upright and visible riding position would improve it.

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I definitely agree that a more upright posture not only improves you ability to be seen, but improves your ability to see.

Smoke said:

Maybe you are projecting when you imagine that I would ride like an idiot if my bike was capable of speeds higher than I could pedal.

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What I imagine is that a lot of people on fast two wheeled motor vehicles think that they are behaving relatively safely when the numbers show that they are not. I have no idea whether you fall into that group or not. And I wouldn't base laws on what you or I might do. I'd base them on what people do in general.

wturber said:

What I imagine is that a lot of people on fast two wheeled motor vehicles think that they are behaving relatively safely when the numbers show that they are not.

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Indeed in every type of thing we do, we are rarely sensible about risk. As a rule, I believe, if you do something infrequently, you will be overly sensitive to the risks - and if you do it frequently, you'll underestimate the risks. It's essentially impossible to do better - with fairly low odds but very high cost of losing, even if you're the rare person with a natural sense for that kind of numbers, you don't have good data on the actual odds or costs - so we do what we want, and sometimes we kid ourselves that we're smart.

MadRhino said:

Some are stucked with the idea that one who has a fast ebike, did build it improper for the task and ride it like an idiot.

My experience is that idiots are riding all sort of bikes, slow or fast, and there are more unsafe slow bikes than fast ones.

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Safety is generally more an aspect of behavior than it is equipment. So yes, stupid behavior is what tends to cause accidents. But going too fast for conditions or speed is one of those stupid things that people do. And injury and death are more likely at higher speeds for unprotected riders. Riding a slow bike takes that one extra stupid thing away from stupid riders (except on steep downhills) and makes injury and death less likely since the speed is lower.

The rate of motorcycle accidents isn't that much different than the rate for cars. But the death rate is 35 time higher. A recent UK study has the number at 15 times higher for cyclists. The lessons seems clear. Travel slower and stay away from cars.

donn said:

Indeed in every type of thing we do, we are rarely sensible about risk. As a rule, I believe, if you do something infrequently, you will be overly sensitive to the risks - and if you do it frequently, you'll underestimate the risks. It's essentially impossible to do better - with fairly low odds but very high cost of losing, even if you're the rare person with a natural sense for that kind of numbers, you don't have good data on the actual odds or costs - so we do what we want, and sometimes we kid ourselves that we're smart.

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Yeah. That's why I try to regularly re-evaluate my commuting route practices and choices. The more you do something with no bad consequences, the more you get convinced that it is reasonable. But that isn't necessarily true.

As I've been responding to these posts and also recently read through an AZ cycling deaths chart , I've decided I've probably been kidding myself about that one section of my route where I do go extra fast. I think I'll be switching to the sidewalk and slower travel for that stretch in the future.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IQhPFF7DELUAXMuB6J97sRY6W1rwfo2w7xXbbXwEqqE/edit#gid=0

wturber said:

Smoke said:

I'm planning on doing 40 mph when I have to but regularly cruising between 20-30 on streets with speed limits between 25-35 mph.

Click to expand...

That seems generally sensible except that doing 40 mph on relatively flat ground may draw attention to you that you don't want. And I'd wonder whether that the situation where you do 40 is really necessary or if it is simply more convenient. For instance, I have one stretch where I tend to go fast (28-30) since it is a 40 mph street and there is no bike path. But I could instead ride on the sidewalk at a slower rate and be generally safer.

Smoke said:

Exhaustion doesn't improve that situation at all but a bit more speed and a more upright and visible riding position would improve it.

Click to expand...

I definitely agree that a more upright posture not only improves you ability to be seen, but improves your ability to see.

Smoke said:

Maybe you are projecting when you imagine that I would ride like an idiot if my bike was capable of speeds higher than I could pedal.

Click to expand...

What I imagine is that a lot of people on fast two wheeled motor vehicles think that they are behaving relatively safely when the numbers show that they are not. I have no idea whether you fall into that group or not. And I wouldn't base laws on what you or I might do. I'd base them on what people do in general.

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I would do 40 when some idiot is trying to run me off the road. In that situation I want to get noticed.

As for who to base laws on, I say use me and let Darwin sort it out.

Anyone who spends the money to get a 40+ mph E-bike is doing it intentionally and should be able to own the consequences of their actions.

I don't want to own the consequences of a law that prevents me from riding the safest bike for me.

Smoke said:

I don't want to own the consequences of a law that prevents me from riding the safest bike for me.

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Well, the simple reality is that most of us choose to live with other people. And that means we have to deal with the consequences of their opinions and the laws they create. I think your arguments are unlikely to be persuasive for many of those people.

Yes, because a lot of people are stupid.

You are saying I should accept the fact that government regulations are going to compromise MY physical safety. Only stupid people think that is a good idea.

If you want to make a law that prohibits me from compromising OTHER people's safety, that's great but it's different.

That's the difference between sensible regulations and big brother.

Give me sensible regulations and I'll only break them when someone is trying to kill me.

With a nonsense regulation I'm an outlaw worrying about enforcement.

I know which world I would rather live in.

The law has to be enforced and let's be honest I don't see pc plod going out of their way to chase ebikes specially in rural areas.
Build your ride so it's not slow and don't get caught while not taking the piss it's as simple as that, I ride a kuberg freerider off-road, ive covered thosands of mikes on electric scooters and spent last summer on my ebike so just use your head don't let yourself be cornered.
I've spotted quite a few people in my area that just obey the law no matter what like lemmings no thought of their own just bum the law and government like they have the people's interest at heart when we know that's bollocks everything you see is being manipulated for power the back hander is everywhere our history is show and tell some humans are greedy alone with all the money but still worthless pieces of crap that want your fun to end so they can hold you in fear and control their nations like Orville the duck just look at the state of affairs in most nations corruption has taken over.

Law is sometimes unjust and insensitive and often made to benefit the powerful-- but traffic law isn't really like that. It's part of the law that's made most directly in response to public demand, and it exists to help us get along and help keep irresponsible people from harming others. It's made to protect the vulnerable and preserve the peace to some degree. Speed limits are good. Licensing and inspection and insurance requirements for dangerous machines are good. If you think those things shouldn't apply to you, then I'm telling you you're one of the reasons why we have those rules.

Smoke said:

You are saying I should accept the fact that government regulations are going to compromise MY physical safety. Only stupid people think that is a good idea.

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No. I'm saying that you have no choice. Stupid or not, you'll have to deal with the laws if they are enforced.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying you can't have your 40 mph ebike. They are just saying you need to get it inspected, registered and insured the same as any other motor vehicle. So there is no safety compromise at all. Just register it and ride it all ya want.

Smoke said:

If you want to make a law that prohibits me from compromising OTHER people's safety, that's great but it's different.

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Well making sure vehicles that are operated at higher speed on public roads meet certain safety standards is done, at least in part,
to limit how much the safety of others is compromised. That usually requires that the vehicle is made by a certified manufacturer or is inspected as an experimental or custom build. I grant you that this system has plenty of flaws. For instance properly made vehicles can be poorly maintained and can be operated stupidly. But then, that's one reason why operators are required to have liability insurance, licenses, and can have licenses suspended or revoked if they show a pattern of poor operational behavior.

I agree that speed limits are good but too often they are set lower than they should be for "traffic calming" or outright revenue generation.

There is no legitimate reason to tell me I can't keep up with traffic when it would be unsafe to go slower.

If you want to prohibit E-bikes from roads with speed limits over 45 mph, that's pretty reasonable, any E-bike capable of keeping up with 50+ mph traffic is really blurring those E-bike/Motorcycle lines. I know I wouldn't ride on those roads without a full face helmet and leathers.

As far as licensing, insurance and inspection laws for dangerous machines, I'm not sure I would call an E-bike any more dangerous than a pedal bike for anyone but the rider unless they are riding on the sidewalk which is already illegal.

Dealing with California Smog checks and hearing about other inspection programs, I feel like inspecting E-bikes will just discourage people from using a clean transportation method.

As for insurance, maybe. Some liability insurance for lithium batteries is probably a good idea and medical coverage for crashes would be good but I kind of think the premiums would be rediculous until everyone starts buying it.

I think rider education is great but making riding a bicycle (electric or not) require a license is a bad thing, that's why certain Mopeds don't require a license. Some people without a license for whichever reason need a method of transportation without resorting to driving a car without a license. The more you allow in a E-bike that is not dangerous to anyone beside the rider, the more people will do the right thing.

Bicycle privileges are for bicycles. Electric bicycles get a special pass to enjoy those privileges, predicated on them staying within the normal bicycle performance envelope. It's anyone's prerogative to take advantage of this dispensation, but you can't legitimately claim the privilege if you don't observe the conditions under which it's offered.

I don't think that any real cyclist wants electric motorcycles encroaching on our hard-won rights and privileges while failing to deliver the benefits to society of going by bicycle rather than by a faster and more dangerous motor vehicle.

As far as your psychological need to keep up with car traffic, I think can I speak for most pedal cyclists when I say: harden the f*k up. We've been sharing the road with these stinking speed demons driven by morons for over a century, and we have always been safer while doing it than motorcyclists. If you want to be a motorcyclist, do it. But don't pretend to be a bicyclist.

I want to avoid getting passed by a car which then immediately proceeds to make a right turn in front of me or force me to ride in to a car door that is swung open without warning.

That happened to me a lot and I want to fix that for me as much as for them because if I get run over and don't die, I'm going to try to get to the driver and beat them to within an inch of their life or maybe a few feet more.

As far as getting hard, I was involved in a bicycle accident that was more than a close call once. I was attempting to pass a car that was driving erratically, making a right hand turn ahead of me (from the center of the intersection) when they suddenly slammed on the brakes causing me to rear end them on my bicycle.

I was undamaged, their car, not so much.

Before anyone thinks about blaming me, realize I was practically in the oncoming traffic lane trying to go around them, they just truly had no idea how to drive.

I'm plenty hard, everything is just better when people don't mess with me.

Chalo said:

Bicycle privileges are for bicycles. Electric bicycles get a special pass to enjoy those privileges, predicated on them staying within the normal bicycle performance envelope.

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Or that's how it should be, anyway (loosely speaking - whether you call that a "special pass", or just not making up arbitrary distinctions is a matter of semantics.)

It's complicated, though. That performance envelope ("how fast is your bicycle") is not just a simple number. Expectations vary from one place to another. There's some talk above about riding on sidewalks, and I assume that's in a situation where it's fine - but right here on my street, it's certainly not fine, you're not at all welcome to ride on the sidewalk here. A couple blocks away, there's a narrow arterial, with 5-7% grades in places; a hardy cyclist can be seen once in a while pumping up the hill with cars whizzing by at his elbow, and even there, sorry, sidewalks are not really there for bicycles. After I got my electric bicycle going, I tried that stretch at traffic speed, and I don't think I'm going to do that again real soon. A guy in a pickup truck behind me couldn't bear it, and passed me even though there wasn't really room between me and the car in front of me. On other arterials of more of the "busy street" variety, where it's more of a stop and go situation, it can make lots of sense to get in with the traffic, as indeed I might have in places prior to the motor, but now I can do it better.

Yes and another thing, the more times that drivers see a bicyclist keeping up with traffic, the less they will assume they have left a bicyclist behind when they are in reality only back at their rear wheel.

Smoke said:

Yes and another thing, the more times that drivers see a bicyclist keeping up with traffic, the less they will assume they have left a bicyclist behind when they are in reality only back at their rear wheel.

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You have brakes and you have motor power. Use one of them to keep cars at a safe distance. As a rider, it is something that you have to take in your own hands, because they don’t.

Cycle paths are mostly a dangerous place to ride, because they are leaving you without escape choices. Riding stucked between trafic, parked cars, and the curb... not for me, thanks.

I like to have the power and speed to be a fair user of the street, with all the options to keep cars at a safe distance, front, rear and sides. Some may feel otherwise and I am not the one to tell them how/where to ride, nor am I giving them the right to tell me. I haven’t succeeded to ride past 70 years still strong and healthy, being a stupid rider. I wish you all the same.

Great post, MR! And, if you drive a car.... it will make you a safer driver also, super defensive driving that is. When I go through a green lighted intersection in my 54,000 lb crane truck, the habits I have learned riding all things 2 wheeled over the years, automatically come into play: I always look to see if someone is blowing thru the light. Regardless of the fact that it would not be my problem but theirs, just a habit now to look, always. I'm always amazed when stopped at a red light, and the driver next me, just stomps on the throttle, without looking for a red light runner, when the light turns green, ARE YOU KIDDING ME? 2 wheeled operators, motorcycles, bikes, whatever, (OK, 3 wheeled also), are probably some of the safest drivers of car or trucks out there. Several times just today, while having the legal right of way, and seeing a car at a stop sign waiting for me to pass by before they pulled out, I just assumed they may not see me and pull out in front of me. Probably like many here, I am an avid reader of the local police log, concerning vehicle accidents, as an educational tool. So many accidents could be avoided if the drivers were more vigilant, even though they were in the right, ( had the green, whatever) they were still wrong by not keeping their eyeballs peeled.

What pisses me off is the ebike power regs they state 350w nominal but the new rocky mountain ebike has 1000w peak power and electric scooters again illegal yet firms are making capital renting them in London so to me fuk the law I'll respect people's safety specially around roads arc but I'm harming no one riding my kuberg on trials.
I got the rant your destroying the trail in fact a mountain bike with a skinny tyre makes more of an impact than a 3.00 tyre running 10psi amd mt 34mph top speed can be best on a downhill non powered ebike in some areas so again it's just arseholes that not willing to accept new methods of having fun responsibly and would rather use sections of road to implement speed traps on the busiest section of motorway that make over 1 million pounds in a rush hour that has little deaths while a road that has 14 deaths in a year goes unmonitored because of the expense to fix the problem and straighten the road or camber it.

I'm a respectful person help they neighbour but suspicious of those with power they don't drive jags for nothing.

Again , I keep coming back to liability, and insurance issues, as they are making as much of a threat as legislation.
Here is a link to a firm hunting e-scoots:
https://www.mcgeelerer.com/personal-injury/electric-scooter-accidents/

Good regulation is a part of reducing ALL the risks to everyone

onemorejoltwarden said:

Good regulation is a part of reducing ALL the risks to everyone

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You are a candid dreamer.

There are no regulations that can make idiots and distracted drivers any better. As a rider on the street, we are potential victims of every driver who is not alert and careful. Our only safety is to develop extreme environmental consciousness, and to constantly explore all defensive options.

Never trust drivers to obey the rules.

MadRhino said:

onemorejoltwarden said:

Good regulation is a part of reducing ALL the risks to everyone

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You are a candid dreamer.

There are no regulations that can make idiots and distracted drivers any better.

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I dunno. I think traffic citations do modify behavior. I shudder to think what drivers would be doing if we had no traffic laws, no registration rules or vehicle safety regulations, no insurance requirements, and so forth. So I do think that regulations tend to make drivers better. Not perfect by a long shot. But better for sure.

MadRhino said:

As a rider on the street, we are potential victims of every driver who is not alert and careful. Our only safety is to develop extreme environmental consciousness, and to constantly explore all defensive options.

Never trust drivers to obey the rules.

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Fully agree with this bit.

wturber said:

I dunno. I think traffic citations do modify behavior. I shudder to think what drivers would be doing if we had no traffic laws, no registration rules or vehicle safety regulations, no insurance requirements, and so forth. So I do think that regulations tend to make drivers better. Not perfect by a long shot. But better for sure.

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Well ... to perhaps get excessively philosophical about it, it isn't clear that people follow the law very often at all. Rather, we behave ourselves primarily according to social expectations, which in a well regulated society correspond very closely to the law where appropriate. So the difference is almost a matter of semantics, because surely if we had no traffic laws etc., it would reflect a total lack of consensus on social expectations, same results. But it explains some things about law and its application, that are relevant to e-bike law.

donn said:

wturber said:

I dunno. I think traffic citations do modify behavior. I shudder to think what drivers would be doing if we had no traffic laws, no registration rules or vehicle safety regulations, no insurance requirements, and so forth. So I do think that regulations tend to make drivers better. Not perfect by a long shot. But better for sure.

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Well ... to perhaps get excessively philosophical about it, it isn't clear that people follow the law very often at all. Rather, we behave ourselves primarily according to social expectations, which in a well regulated society correspond very closely to the law where appropriate. So the difference is almost a matter of semantics, because surely if we had no traffic laws etc., it would reflect a total lack of consensus on social expectations, same results. But it explains some things about law and its application, that are relevant to e-bike law.

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The original assertion was "good regulation." To me that means sensible laws (which implies fairly wide agreement with social expectations) and reasonable enforcement (actually citing violators within the spirit and intent of the laws made.) If cops stopped pulling cars over for expired registration, you can be sure that the number of unregistered vehicles would increase significantly as would the number of vehicles that were properly insured. There's a reasons traffic typically travels within 10 mph of the posted speed limit except in school zones. That's the way speed limits are typically enforced. Enforcement is a factor.

One example here. No surprise to me.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16688057

If we do not create the legislation it will be done for us.
If not through the legislative process, by common law
JAMA January 25, 2019
Injuries Associated With Standing Electric Scooter Use
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2722574

As Deaths, Injuries Pile Up, So Do Claims Against Electric Scooter Firms
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/10/31/506097.htm

Riding an illegal scooter or ebike will potentially compromise coverage, with resulting rejection of coverage and claims.
Getting cited by a LEO is the least of your concerns. They can do little damage
compared to having a liability, injury or theft claim put back in your lap.