GNG / CYC X1 Pro 3000w

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 20 2018 2:53am

?
Did you mean to write 52 volt ( 14s )
or
48 Volt ( 13s ) ?

For higher speed and lower leg cadence ... what is the largest front chain ring that this motor will accept ?
and
Who knows that chain/rear cog number , type of chain ring they are using
8 speed or 9/10 speed ?

hypertoric_amplituhedron wrote:
Dec 20 2018 12:51am
I was thinking of running 50v 50a for most hot rodding.
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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Dec 20 2018 9:45am

hypertoric_amplituhedron wrote:
Dec 20 2018 12:51am
You think that would be a good idea if I'm only using it at 100 rpm at the crank? 120 rpm max? 12s would be perfect for those speeds. Even if I restricted the rpm that low on 20s, wouldn't I be better off going 12s in the long run? The size of the pack is for decent range at 35 mph, a typical cruising speed for me in some places. I was thinking of running 50v 50a for most hot rodding.
Doesn't matter. The controller will convert the higher voltage to run the motor at whatever speed you want. Higher input voltages will allow higher top speed while staying just as efficient. It might even turn out more efficient since higher voltages will mean lower battery amps for the same watts. Losses in wires and transistors are scaled by amps.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by hypertoric_amplituhedron » Dec 20 2018 10:33am

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Dec 20 2018 2:53am
Did you mean to write 52 volt ( 14s )
or
48 Volt ( 13s ) ?

For higher speed and lower leg cadence ... what is the largest front chain ring that this motor will accept ?
and
Who knows that chain/rear cog number , type of chain ring they are using
8 speed or 9/10 speed ?
Nope, 12s = 44.4v nom , 50.4v hot. Someone answered back with 53-54T chainring may be the largest, which works with my usage. By the looks of it, the chainring is probably compatible with 8~11 speed. A 120 rpm at the crank + 53T + 11T rear sprocket + 700x28 tire = about 40 mph.
n2mb wrote:
Dec 20 2018 9:45am
Doesn't matter. The controller will convert the higher voltage to run the motor at whatever speed you want. Higher input voltages will allow higher top speed while staying just as efficient. It might even turn out more efficient since higher voltages will mean lower battery amps for the same watts. Losses in wires and transistors are scaled by amps.
Well, I'm not opposed to more power/efficiency. From what I've learned though, it just seemed like choosing a lower voltage for lower motor speed was better for efficiency. Technically I'd be running it at part throttle for 95% of the riding. The ebike sim will show how a high voltage makes a motor run kinda hot at (a relative) low speed , even at part throttle, since the efficient zone is pushed to much higher speeds. But, at the same time, this is a 0.2mm lam motor we're talking about, so everything may balance out.
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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 20 2018 6:41pm

Which version of this motor will give the best top speed
The Geared or Chain Version ?

By about how much would you estimate ?

Which version would go up paved mountain roads faster ?
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Dec 20 2018 8:26pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Dec 20 2018 6:41pm
Which version of this motor will give the best top speed
The Geared or Chain Version ?

By about how much would you estimate ?

Which version would go up paved mountain roads faster ?
If they have the same reduction ratio, they will perform the same.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 21 2018 5:02pm

The Chainring and the toothed sprocket are different sizes. Why would you think they would have the same reduction ratio ?
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Animalector » Dec 23 2018 2:08am

maybe the drive gear is smaller on the direct drive vs the chain drive, thus overall same ratio? I don't know for sure but this is certainly possible .. and makes sense.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Grantmac » Dec 23 2018 3:18am

GNG confirmed the ratio is the same, 6:1.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by hypertoric_amplituhedron » Dec 23 2018 7:59pm

The reduction is the same, but the chain version can fit a larger front chainring, which allows a higher top speed than the gear version.
There are two types of people in this world.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by hypertoric_amplituhedron » Dec 25 2018 3:36pm

And, for those not following their FB page, they will be working on a torque sensor bb for release in ab 4-5 months. It will easily adapt to the 1st batch, they said. Looking forward to that!
There are two types of people in this world.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Smoke » Jan 03 2019 4:32pm

I hope someone lets us know when they finally get one of these in hand.

I want to see it in the wild.
Don't let me out.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Electricglider » Jan 04 2019 2:39am

Ok, just ordered a chain version. :flame:
Want to have the option to mount it inside the frame. Had a long chat with them on FB, super nice help.
The App looks very promising. 3 programmable ride options. Power/PAS/Throttle in any configuration. Very 25kmt/PAS only friendly.
I have a 72v 25Ah battery ready.
They claimed 80-90kmt with that setup. So no need to run on the 11t for normal speeds.

But no shipping untill mid February :cry:
Well, ok, still winter here in Norway in February.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Shepherd » Jan 08 2019 12:17pm

If all other things are equal then the chain version will be faster.
A chain drive is about as efficient as any drive system ever invented. Gears offer considerably more friction and hence power loss.
The gear's advantage is in durability. It won't suffer chain stretch, and if robust enough and designed properly,will outlast a chain drive and require much less maintenance.
Pick your poison.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 08 2019 12:22pm

Electricglider wrote:
Jan 04 2019 2:39am
Ok, just ordered a chain version. :flame:
Want to have the option to mount it inside the frame. Had a long chat with them on FB, super nice help.
The App looks very promising. 3 programmable ride options. Power/PAS/Throttle in any configuration. Very 25kmt/PAS only friendly.
I have a 72v 25Ah battery ready.
They claimed 80-90kmt with that setup. So no need to run on the 11t for normal speeds.

But no shipping untill mid February :cry:
Well, ok, still winter here in Norway in February.
I was thinking of using a 52V 12 Ah battery, now thinking more about 72V 10Ah.
https://lunacycle.com/luna-wolf-52v-ebike-battery/
vs
https://lunacycle.com/72v-triangle-panasonic-GA-10-5ah/

They are roughly the same size and weight. They also have the similar continuous and peak wattage. If the controller is designed correctly, that should yield the same phase amps and torque at slow speeds, despite having lower battery amps.

But, the benefit of 72V vs 52V should be that the motor should spin faster, allowing to use a larger gear on the cassette. Higher chain speed should reduce the torque on the cassette and freewheel, hopefully improving lifetime.

Sound right?

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by neptronix » Jan 08 2019 12:57pm

Neither of those packs will come even close to delivering the 65 amps that the controller wants.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 08 2019 1:03pm

The 52v one will do 50a continuous 70 amps peak.

I have to imagine that the current limit will be lower at 72 volts. 65 amps at 72 volts is 4700 watts. I think the motor is only rated at 3000 watts.

I'm aiming to go Max of 35 miles per hour, so I probably only need 1100 to 1200 watts continuous. I would just use the peak wattage to accelerate.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by neptronix » Jan 08 2019 1:18pm

The BMS will do 50 amps continous, 70 amps peak. The cells will not.
Look at the datasheet for the cells, and you will see what i mean.

The GA is rated for 3C maximum continuous in a temperature controlled lab. Therefore, 3C is the absolute maximum in that situation - in an enclosed pack, much less.

The 30Q is rated for 4C maximum in the same way. In an enclosed pack, much less.

That puts the absolute maximum at 30A for the 10AH GA pack and 48A for the 12AH 30Q pack.
But both will die very quickly and perform horribly, and might even catch fire if you use them at their absolute maximum continuously.

Real world safe maximum continuous is more like 25A and 40A, respectively. But even then, you will see horribly poor performance as ~14% of your battery's energy will go to heat. But it won't explode..

But the controller of this drive is designed for 65A continuous, so even the BMS cannot handle what it could dish out.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 08 2019 1:24pm

neptronix wrote:
Jan 08 2019 1:18pm
The BMS will do 50 amps continous, 70 amps peak. The cells will not.
Look at the datasheet for the cells, and you will see what i mean.

The GA is rated for 3C maximum continuous in a temperature controlled lab. Therefore, 3C is the absolute maximum in that situation - in an enclosed pack, much less.

The 30Q is rated for 4C maximum in the same way. In an enclosed pack, much less.

That puts the absolute maximum at 30A for the 10AH GA pack and 48A for the 12AH 30Q pack.
But both will die very quickly and perform horribly, and might even catch fire if you use them at their absolute maximum continuously.

Real world safe maximum continuous is more like 25A and 40A, respectively. But even then, you will see horribly poor performance as ~14% of your battery's energy will go to heat. But it won't explode..

But the controller of this drive is designed for 65A continuous, so even the BMS cannot handle what it could dish out.
I agree on all the battery specs. Continuous amps is likely to be 20A or so on the 52V, 14A on the 72V, when cruising on the road at 35 mph (~1100 watts).

The controller might be rated for 65A continuous, but I don't think the motor will be able to handle that without overheating, especially not at 72V. That would be huge wattage... I don't know what will be reasonable, though. Maybe 2000W continuous from the motor? It will depend on speed and cooling air, etc....

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by neptronix » Jan 08 2019 1:39pm

Well, it's said to be a 3000w rated motor and GNG has stated conservative figures in the past.
I think it's safe to assume it's really a 3000w drive.

If you want to hit the 3000W mark with 65A.. a 52V battery is your best bet.

Unfortunately you are going to have a hard time finding a battery with that kind of power delivery. Even the EM3EV selections fall short due to the BMS used. I asked him if there were any other options for higher discharge, and was told that there weren't any.

You'll want a custom battery or lipo.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 08 2019 1:46pm

neptronix wrote:
Jan 08 2019 1:39pm
Well, it's said to be a 3000w rated motor and GNG has stated conservative figures in the past.
I think it's safe to assume it's really a 3000w drive.

If you want to hit the 3000W mark with 65A.. a 52V battery is your best bet.

Unfortunately you are going to have a hard time finding a battery with that kind of power delivery. Even the EM3EV selections fall short due to the BMS used. I asked him if there were any other options for higher discharge, and was told that there weren't any.

You'll want a custom battery or lipo.
I had this battery in the past:
https://west-coast-electric-cycles.mysh ... amsung-30q

It's a beast and would do 80A at 60V, so 4800W no problem. It fit even my small triangle full-suspension mountain bike... But, it is quite heavy... I was hoping to go lighter on this build... 9 lbs of battery plus 7.7 lb motor plus 32 lb bike, should be under 50 lbs total.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by neptronix » Jan 08 2019 2:06pm

My bad for forgetting about that company :oops:
That's gonna sag a lot on 3C ( 63A ), so hopefully you won't be pulling that continuous.

I think if that pack had Samsung 25Rs in it instead, it'd be pretty ideal.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 08 2019 2:17pm

neptronix wrote:
Jan 08 2019 2:06pm
My bad for forgetting about that company :oops:
That's gonna sag a lot on 3C ( 63A ), so hopefully you won't be pulling that continuous.

I think if that pack had Samsung 25Rs in it instead, it'd be pretty ideal.
Yeah, it sagged a bit, but didn't seem too bad.

How would you draw 63A continuous? I only draw that for a few seconds while accelerating, then it drops off. Even my Sur Ron is less than that at full speed (47 mph, about 3400W). I guess if you were doing a lot of climbing...

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by neptronix » Jan 08 2019 2:37pm

..or if you're just using the continuous capabilities of the motor by gong fast, which let's be honest, you're likely to do. At least i am :)

I have a 30Q 15AH pack and it sags to an extreme at 40A and limits my top speed and wastes energy.. at 30A ( 2C ), it starts to become acceptable at 4v of voltage sag, but not ideal, for sure.

Overspec your batteries whenever possible.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by 2old » Jan 09 2019 10:23am

A 52V, 6ah, 30q (14s, 2p) battery can power a 750w BBS02 for off road riding up to 20 miles with 2,000'+ climbing or 1000w rear hub (30 amp) system to 33 mph which it has done for the past year without any complaints. I know it's stressed beyond normal limits, but wanted to determine the capability of a light battery, plus enjoyed my <35 pound BBS-powered MTB.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 09 2019 10:26am

2old wrote:
Jan 09 2019 10:23am
A 52V, 6ah, 30q (14s, 2p) battery can power a 750w BBS02 for off road riding up to 20 miles with 2,000'+ climbing or 1000w rear hub (30 amp) system to 33 mph which it has done for the past year without any complaints. I know it's stressed beyond normal limits, but wanted to determine the capability of a light battery, plus enjoyed my <35 pound BBS-powered MTB.
Mighty mini battery?

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