Razor e300 ultra. Technical guide

Ianhill · Jan 20, 2019

Those with a keen eye will have seen the rear wheel is off centre by 5mm so the rear drop out needs to be 1cm wider to get perfect alignment.

I'm going to cut the centre bar out of the rear and widen the frame in that area by the 1cm then I'm going to cut the dropout plates off and make new ones out of 12mm steel so I can use a bolt to tighten the dropout and lock the hub down from both sides rather than use the skinny torque arm, I'll have to work out my spacings but I have alot of thread left over on one side and a spacer to that I can remove to gain room so 12mm should be possible I'll have to get the calipers out.

The rear footplate mounting bracket was very close to fowling on the tyre on oneside so I've cut the offending part off and I will replicate it with a mirror image of what is left on the otherside, it could be used as is when bolted down it's plenty strong enough but I plan on making a metal deck to replace the plastic one down the line after I've chopped it up to get a good fit to be a template for the metal one to be built off of.

I'm going to have a look at the disc brake bracket and revise it into the dropout if I'm making a thicker one from new I should be able to do something to get it mounting straight to the caliper mount so I could upgrade disc size from 140 to 160 if i liked easily enough in the future along with enough room for a vented pad 4 piston caliper setup.

So there's a lot of metal fabricating and working out of measurments to be done to move forward but if a jobs worth doing its worth doing it right and the final product will be that much better for it.

detrailers · Jan 28, 2019

Following, about to do this to an E300 I have in the attic. So far the only company I found that has the hub motor conversion kit is overseas...

Im in the states, Ill check Monster Scooter...

Ianhill · Jan 31, 2019

Cheers detrailers things will move slow but they will move, I got my hub being done this weekend so I'll have some pics finally of a completed front wheel.

I got an oset sprocket carrier that's spare so i could make this a dual drive on a single wheel, I'd need to get a new side cover machined for the one side so id have a disc brake mount on both sides i can then use a lmx 005 motor with a 60t rear sprocket and have a very close match to the tyre wheel speeds per volt applied so they will complement each other nicely one inrruner the other outrunner.

With the hub and a inrunner motor in 2 compact strong drivetrains side by side I could run upto 8.88kw at 12s in a 6.5inch wheel that's geared for 45mph it's going to be burnout time and it will pull very strong always.

I'll have to think on this one, its going to add alot of cost and time, I'll need a dual vesc 6.6 plus to power it but the end product will be a total one off highly configurable settings still have variable regen but send the power levels through the roof easily be a mad wheelie machine that's calling me to build it.

Ianhill · Feb 2, 2019

The front wheel is complete, I'm extremely happy with the hub it's come out perfect big dual row bearings mounted in the alu 7075 stock that was used to make the part and theres a thicker 12mm axle to make sure this is a complete one off, it's got to be the best designed hub I've seen on a wheel of this size the measurements are spot on, the bolt relief everything was thought out so this first piece has no areas I would change or could improve on.

I've got to get m5×30mm shoulder allen bolts to lock the hub to the wheel and then I can dynamically balance it and be done with it, from test spins it's not to far out but I've found to get these wheels past 40mph they have to have decent balancing or they will hop about in extreme speed circumstances.

View attachment 2

ElectricGod · Feb 4, 2019

That wheel looks great. You will have no problems stopping with that giant rotor.

Get sealed bearings for it.

The one bearing in the Currie that is shielded is now failing...that's the skirt bearing in the motor. I have a replacement sealed bearing, but I was hoping the factory bearing would last a good while longer before I needed to replace it.

Are you going to do anything to the hub motor? Like open it up and install bigger phase wires?

Ianhill · Feb 4, 2019

I done a bit of research on bearings before I order them, there's a few different suffix, rs, 2rs , zz/2z, z and e, both the 2rs and the 2z/zz are sealed but the zz has lower rolling resistance due to being all metal.

The zz are the most expensive so they tend to be knocked off the most make sure to order a good quality Dunlop bearing etc and pop the front and rear caps off clean them out with wd40 and then repack them with a high quality grease end of every riding season and they will last a long time.

I noticed the kuberg had all zz bearings and some of them had failed with damp ingress mostly due to humidity and lack of grease then taken them out riding in this condition the ball will pit and wear fast, they have covers on the axle to ensure they are sealed but one front and one rear had failed along with a swing arm bearing.

I bet your motor bearing dried up with thermal cycling and time then the lack of grease and humidiy in the air started the pitting process and allowed room for more crap to get it if it's open to the elements then during use it wore out fast keep the bearings well packed to keep any damp and crap out.

I've never tryed these double row angular bearings before but the complete wheel rolls nice doesn't slow fast feels strong but time will tell.

The hub motor is gonna get some love it's on the list after my front fork is remade from 125mm dropout to 135mm with a disc mount, once thats done I'll open the motor up again and have a good look what can be improved as we do.

This is a problem I spotted with the lmx 005 motor it has an exposed bearing on the drive side where all the grease and crap builds up on the kuberg this is sealed but for some reason they fitted the bearing from the front of the housing instead of from the rear keeping it well sealed recessed in the case, in theory the bearing cover could be flipped off and cleaned out without taking the motor apart, bad idea but nothing a custom bit of alloy on the lathe and some milling around its edge can't fix

I'm undecided yet to stick with single hub motor or just use a lighter motor than the lmx 005 to complement the hub rather than overpower it and keep total weight low as I can but im open to still going dual maybe a 6374 motor I'll have to look at the hub first see it's current handling and go from there.

ElectricGod · Feb 7, 2019

That top motor is an HLD inrunner.

All they did was mill off the face of it and remachine the output shaft a little. That output bearing won't be a problem. I can tell you that from having 2 of these motors.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC48V-60V-72V-1200W-3200rpm-Small-DC-magnetic-brushless-motor-differential-motor-electric-scooter-motor/32813151889.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.375.6bec3c00cTNsIi

3000%20watt%20inrunner%20with%20bracket%203_zpsgi1ad0nw.jpg

Ianhill · Feb 8, 2019

2.5mm phase wires teflon coated
46mm wide stator 0.5mm lams
0.6mm wire 14 strands
11 ×3 ×45mm magnets ×30
27n30p config 3 to 4 turns per slot ?
Wye termination.

View attachment 1

View attachment 5
View attachment 6

Looking at the motor it should handle 80 batt amps for short bursts I imagine or around 4.8kw, the bearing design is excellent concealed in the case mounted from the inside with a rubber dust sleeve to the front, the winding is not that neat on one side it could have used sleeving on the phases but the hall placement is excellent notched out done decently and potting added to the hall circuit board wire to keep them stable, for the price I'll give the motor an 8/10 i would add sleeving and the magnets are seated on a solid piece of magnet steel to complete the magnetic circuit but a bit of heat could have been avoided here it it was laminated sheets pressed into the alloy to act as a heat sink the design would be more effective than an ebike motor due to having the extra alloy mass of the rim.

But if you look there's 6 mounting areas where the hub meets the rim thats where the heat will have to pass through to get to the outer of the case this is a thermal barrier that will limit the heat at peak currents it's better than the ebike design but could be even more improved.

But for the price and it's intentions I never even expected this quality, it's simular to a hoverboard motor same slot count and magnets just the stator is wider so has more iron and copper for larger phase currents and torque with increased magnet size on the rotor.

Looking at the motor some effort has been made to keep eddy currents small so it can achieve higher frequency, there looks to be a decent amount of torque up for grabs more testing needs to be done before I can give the nod but it looks very promising I'm going to wrap the winding tight and conformal coat it and run it single drive it will have enough grunt on its own and ill have less losses, complexity and price with 1 motor + controller vs 2 as it's getting out of hand I'll be finishing it next year otherwise.

ElectricGod · Feb 8, 2019

That looks like a reasonably good motor.

Consider getting a Nucular controller for it. If you do ever go dual motor, these controllers have the ability to run in parallel.

The 12 fet version is good for 5kw and they are fully FOC. I have 2 of them and so far I'm liking them a lot.

While you are inside that motor, consider rewiring it for delta.

The hall placement is weird. How many stator teeth are there? It looks like 27 to me. Maybe it's set up for 60 degrees which is far less common and some controllers don't support it.

This is typical hall placement rules for 120 degrees.

Hall%20Sensor%20Positioning_zpswm8bs0v5.jpg

Ianhill · Feb 8, 2019

Let me add even more confusion kuberg motor same hall placement 18n16p bit poor pic but it's the same centre hall is inbetween/overlapping phases.

I like those nuclear controllers they seems good quality robust, down the line I may well upgrade to one.

The phase wires should be ok I'll have my controller right next to the motor so I'll have 15cm of phase wire, at that length 2.5mm will be upto the task, battery wires again will be even shorter I got my self some xt150 motor and power connectors.

Just laced the phase wire up it's been sprayed I'll check it out in morning now keep your dick in a vice.

detrailers · Feb 10, 2019

I asked UU which one I should order and this is what they recommended, i wanted it to be as powerful as possible so I planned on the 48v 800 watt......anything I should know?
https://www.uumotor.com/ws/p/fat-tire-10-inch-48v-800w-electric-scooter-kit/

Ianhill · Feb 10, 2019

detrailers said:
I asked UU which one I should order and this is what they recommended, i wanted it to be as powerful as possible so I planned on the 48v 800 watt......anything I should know?
https://www.uumotor.com/ws/p/fat-tire-10-inch-48v-800w-electric-scooter-kit/

I can't comment on the hub you listed it seems decent enough but looks to be a 36v 500w bike hub or very simular where as the dualtron ultra hub is 60v 1600w or about 2 times the power handling at the same driven voltage, I got mine off aliexpress annoybike if you Google that and click on items for sale its top of the list £115 and for the price of have to recommend that really but be sure you have a 140mm rear dropout.

detrailers · Feb 10, 2019

Thanks for that, yes the one pictured is the 36v 500 but you can select a 48v 800.

With that being said I like the 1600 idea but not sure if they will ship to the states, ill check them out..what measurement is the "dropout"

detrailers · Feb 10, 2019

Wow i just checked them out, looks like a better site, just messaged the seller to see if he can put me together a full kit with controller, throttle, etc....sorry to hijack your thread just really excited about doing this.

Ianhill · Feb 11, 2019

detrailers said:
Wow i just checked them out, looks like a better site, just messaged the seller to see if he can put me together a full kit with controller, throttle, etc....sorry to hijack your thread just really excited about doing this.

Hijack away thats what its for and ill help as much as I can, the dropout is the width between the rear of the frame that the wheel fits into, They sell controllers so imagine they can do you a kit they were helpful to me quick with reply just give them a week or so to post and then 14days later it's at my door.

Stripped the hub down laced the winding up and conformal coated the stator, rotor and side covers, assemble it next then add xt150 motor connectors but unsure on what to use for my hall connector at the moment.

ElectricGod · Feb 11, 2019

Ianhill said:
Let me add even more confusion kuberg motor same hall placement 18n16p bit poor pic but it's the same centre hall is inbetween/overlapping phases._IMG_000000_000000.jpg

The kuberg motor isn't an HLD. It has far more poles and stator teeth. HLD's use pretty large magnets and there are 8 of them. The Kuberg motor will stand up to higher RPM's and not throw a magnet. On the 25mm HLD, I was running it at 82v with field weakening set to 200% and popped a magnet out of the armature. I doubt the Kuberg motor would do that.

Competed%20motor%20rewire_zpssglhyq2d.jpg

Ianhill · Feb 12, 2019

ElectricGod said:
Ianhill said:

Let me add even more confusion kuberg motor same hall placement 18n16p bit poor pic but it's the same centre hall is inbetween/overlapping phases._IMG_000000_000000.jpg

Click to expand...

The kuberg motor isn't an HLD. It has far more poles and stator teeth. HLD's use pretty large magnets and there are 8 of them. The Kuberg motor will stand up to higher RPM's and not throw a magnet. On the 25mm HLD, I was running it at 82v with field weakening set to 200% and popped a magnet out of the armature. I doubt the Kuberg motor would do that.

Whoa there crazy horse 20s with 200% phase u say it would have been ripping rpms if it held together.

I clocked myself at 35mph with a 14inch trials rear wheel and tyre at 13s 12kw it's there straight away front wheel in the air but I find the motor gets up to some decent rpm there must be field weakening on the stock controller but I've not done the math yet to work out how much I'll have to experiment one day run it on a stand off my vesc record it at 1000fps and see what's the true kv of this motor as I'm a bit blind with the stock setup as to what is going on the controller was a $1000 So it must have some goodies in there, when I went to disassemble it had a temp sensor to the heat sink and some potting it would come apart but not easy so I didn't want to destroy it and left it a mystery.

detrailers · Feb 12, 2019

Ianhill said:
detrailers said:

Wow i just checked them out, looks like a better site, just messaged the seller to see if he can put me together a full kit with controller, throttle, etc....sorry to hijack your thread just really excited about doing this.

Click to expand...

Hijack away thats what its for and ill help as much as I can, the dropout is the width between the rear of the frame that the wheel fits into, They sell controllers so imagine they can do you a kit they were helpful to me quick with reply just give them a week or so to post and then 14days later it's at my door.

Greets, tried to PM you instead of clogging up your thread, having trouble getting ahold of the annoybike sellers on AliExpress...is that who you got your stuff thru? When I add it to the cart it shows the sellers and "Green E Bike"
I've messaged them and no response but maybe I'm not messaging in the correct location?
I know there are chinese holidays happening right now so maybe they are gone

detrailers · Feb 12, 2019

Disregard, I see they are having chinese new year until the 13th so maybe they will respond after then

Ianhill · Feb 13, 2019

detrailers said:
Disregard, I see they are having chinese new year until the 13th so maybe they will respond after then

Fingers crossed they get hold of you tomorrow they get it to you before march I imagine.

ElectricGod · Feb 13, 2019

Ianhill said:
Whoa there crazy horse 20s with 200% phase u say it would have been ripping rpms if it held together.

I clocked myself at 35mph with a 14inch trials rear wheel and tyre at 13s 12kw it's there straight away front wheel in the air but I find the motor gets up to some decent rpm there must be field weakening on the stock controller but I've not done the math yet to work out how much I'll have to experiment one day run it on a stand off my vesc record it at 1000fps and see what's the true kv of this motor as I'm a bit blind with the stock setup as to what is going on the controller was a $1000 So it must have some goodies in there, when I went to disassemble it had a temp sensor to the heat sink and some potting it would come apart but not easy so I didn't want to destroy it and left it a mystery.

Potting = can't fix your stuff. No thanks! Mobipus controllers are supposedly really good, but they are fully potted which means repairs are impossible and your only choice is to buy another one. In my experience, the #1 thing in a controller to fail is the mosfets and replacing them is cheap and easy. Why would I spend $1000 for a replacement controller when $40-90 worth of mosfets fixes the controller? IMHO, potting is used to guarantee return sales. It does add a small margin of additional reliability, but at the cost of being non-serviceable, it's not worth it.

I know...200% field weakening under load would not result in 200% more RPM's on any motor. I was goofing around. I popped the magnet back into place. It was undamaged...just a few scuff marks on the chrome. I poured super glue in the gaps behind the magnets. After that the magnets would not come loose at 200% FW.

Any kind of SPM motor will present far more RPM's on the bench under zero load with field weakening. Load it just a little and all those extra RPM's will disappear. You really need a lot of exposed iron on the armature for FW to work well. Typical SPM's won't have that while an IPM armature will and as a result will hold power with FW much better. Your motor has a moderate amount of exposed iron, it may benefit a little from FW. The HLD inrunner with max FW, got me 2 more MPH over no FW. On the C80100 outrunner, I got an additional 3 mph. The HLD did better IMHO since it got the extra speed with virtually no change in current draw. The C80100 pulled down 10-20 more amps for it's very small gain.

I've never done it because on an outrunner armature spinning mass needs to remain low, but I considered making some iron blocks to go between the magnets to create more exposed iron in the armature. Who knows, the added mass may not matter that much and maybe the iron would get me a lot more FW benefit.

You may have some FW in there, but I doubt it. There's just not very much exposed iron between the magnets here. The usable RPM gains with FW would be small.

2019-02-13%2014_04_01-_IMG_000000_000000.jpg%20-%20Windows%20Photo%20Viewer.png

This armature however would provide lots of FW gains.

Do you have a drill you can close it's chuck on the motor shaft? Do you have a laser tacho and a DMM? you have everything you need to find your motors Kv.

1. Use MAX RPM for your drill and just hold it there.
2. Use the laser tacho to determine the RPM of the motor shaft.
3. Connect the DMM to any 2 of the motor phase wires. What's the voltage it reads with the drill maxed out?

Kv=RPM/V

If you then discover that the motor is running faster than it's Kv limit on the controller, it is using FW.

$1000 does not prove anything other than the controller costs a lot if you want to replace it with another provided by Kuberg. It's just an 18 or maybe 24 fet FOC controller. That ought to set you back something like $500-800.

Ianhill · Feb 13, 2019

Ill use the vesc when i got time I can work out my no load current at the same time but 10 out of 10 for knowing that way easy enough to get the result on a bench setup fairly quick, I love using methods like that to get the job done and find out whats what.

I'll be honest I think the kuberg uses a 12 fet design it's small the potting ain't covering the whole board it's just on a corner around the heatsink and temp sensor but the fets live underneath and that has to come off to get a view so they could be swapped out easily enough it's not been completely potted/ruined.

Field weakning relies on torque reserves being used as a kv increase, the magnetic linkage between rotor and stator is reduced with advanced timing leading to the rotor speeding up and torque reducing as there's less induction so bmf will lower also and allow more current to be drawn like a stall situation.

What you are pointing out is the area of motor that acts as a yoke to the magnets and helps guide their field lines from under the magnet back to their surface to increase surface tesla of the magnet, that's why the kuberg motor has the iron up the side of the magnet it increases surface strength and in the ipm motor the magnets again act as if they are in a yoke because they are and when designed correctly the surface tesla of the rotor is actually increased even though there is an increased distance to the magnet, the yoke guides the field lines into a more compacted stronger field.

Another point is that the larger exposed surface iron then undergoes induction just like a hob so there's a reluctance torque that also builds with current draw and increases the motors output even further but this area needs to be designed not to become saturated with the magnetic field of the magnets plus what's being induced by the stator in heavy use or thermals will go through the roof on the rotor, a standard controller will no longer control the motor to take advantage but I think a vesc could do it with an encoder.

The fact there's that iron exposed on the rotor you shown helps with field weakening because of the increased induction of the motor means a larger bemf if that can be weakened with a timing advancement based on rpm and current demand then a large amount of bemf can be removed at high rpm allowing the motor to draw extra current as the decreasing magnetic linkage between stator and rotor allows the rpm to increase further.

Its the same as the alternator motors when the stator is powered and the rotor voltage is reduced the rotors rpm speeds up but torque output drops, there's a point when we lower the rotor voltage low enough it can not hold it's own mass to the rotating field and it slips away from it.

If the motor does not respond well then I would have thought the timing is either off or the induction properties are not responding well it's hard to say with these things lots of variables that are invisible to the naked eye the brain must be trained to see them.

I'm always learning and by no means a pro just a hobbiest that has a long road ahead, I try to spot the extremes of an interaction to draw a mental picture in pencil so i can use a rubber on my mistakes.

detrailers · Feb 13, 2019

The peeps at Annoybike got back to me and sent me the link for the wheel/kit. I see its advertised for 60 or 72v.....i was planning on 48v. Won't 60 V take up more battery space. My plans are to get a batt that fits in the stock battery tray and I'm thinking if its a 60v I won't have much AH capacity....

Ianhill · Feb 13, 2019

detrailers said:
The peeps at Annoybike got back to me and sent me the link for the wheel/kit. I see its advertised for 60 or 72v.....i was planning on 48v. Won't 60 V take up more battery space. My plans are to get a batt that fits in the stock battery tray and I'm thinking if its a 60v I won't have much AH capacity....

If you plan on running 48v or 13s I would recommend getting the flipsky vesc 6.6 I know it's a little more on cost and fiddly but the end result will be foc commutation and variable regen with a button that flips the throttle and being able to control the throttle deadzones max current etc,

It depends what you want if you want to power the hub but don't want all the hastle then a ebike controller is for you, but if you like to potch and would like to tune the ride with a laptop or over Bluetooth then I'd consider a vesc it will power the hub to the 30mph range with plenty of torque plus Its light and small with loads of features.

Foc commutation runs the hub very quietly and a vesc allows you to change the switching frequency above 18khz standard so at 24khz it becomes very quiet only dogs hear it hum.

ElectricGod · Feb 13, 2019

For dual wheel drive, get the dual VESC 6.6. You have to program each one individually, but the dual is cheaper than 2 separate VESC 6.6's. They come in 100 and 200 amp versions with a max of 60v.

Razor e300 ultra. Technical guide

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