Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

[adam B]

Just got my frame from Riesen g510


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[Bigwheel]

Very nice Adam. I'll look forward to seeing how it all goes together. You should probably start your own build post though.

[Surfingjeff]

Wayne I checked M2S bikes and they too now have a aluminum frame Bafang M600 mid drive bike available on preorder at $3500 . But I noticed it does not come with a throtttle . This is the only bike they do t have without a throttle . They just say it’s not available. I don’t know there is any speed control. Most all bikes by M2S do not have any speed restrictions like my dual sport 500Watt hub motor goes to about 35 mph with peddling and 25 mph with throttle only.

https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collections/f ... suspension

[Bigwheel]

Wayne I checked M2S bikes and they too now have a aluminum frame Bafang M600 mid drive bike available on preorder at $3500 . But I noticed it does not come with a throtttle .
https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collections/f ... suspension

The M2S mentioned is just a re-hash of the same old 4 bar Alibaba FS design that has been being produced for several years now, albeit with other motors. Geometry wise it is way behind the times as to what is current today, long chain stays, steep head tube and short top tubes are not going to handle as well as bikes that have developed over the years nor be as popular with those that keep track of modern geometry figures.

Eco-Motion lists one with the same frame design, albeit with an external battery, and a integral Bafang 350w mid-drive for around 2k. While it might not be as well speced as that M2S version at the end of the day both bikes are going to basically handle the same. While that feature might not be important to some I feel in order to further the interest in bikes in this price range it is possible to have current geometry at the same price point.

The fact that the M2s does not have a throttle is a deal breaker for me also. It is the main reason I started looking at the M600 and has kept me out of the torque assist integrated motor systems, I don't like the Ultra for my needs, and if they can't get it together soon and back this platform I think they are missing out.

[Bigwheel]

cccc

[waynebergman]

Yes I agree with bigwheel, this bike looks kind of dorky complete with kick stand. Real mountain bikes dont have kick stands. Complete with that steep seat tube, the bike just looks like a wall mart special in every way.

[Animalector]

no bearings either, you can see some sort of plastic bushings on all linkage pivots. I doubt it will last considering the places you can go with an ebike.

There is a plus side.. If the bike is cheap enough, rip the drivetrain, bars, grips, gears, wheels and M600 motor off of that frame, and put it into another frame, a Dengfu or whatever)

Andy

[waynebergman]

no plus side Andy, waste of paint.

[Animalector]

Ok ok. Trying to be optimistic I certainly wouldn't get one

[Surfingjeff]

I have the hub motor version of this m2s frame and yes it’s heavy , and really it’s not true mountain bike more of a Jeep road bike because when I take it through my normal mountain bike the battery screws rattle out and very cumbersome the shocks bottom out . But my bike was only $1750 so for that price it’s not a bad deal esepciallly with a throttle .its great for commuting through the dirt canyon to my work .

[mike425]

Hi, really interesting read. I have been looking at the M600 for a while, but it is almost impossible to find any bikes with one in the EU to test.

Do you find that you can reach maximum speed with pedal assist quite easily? If so what is the motor like at this point? Does it decouple? Or do you get noticeable resistance?

I have tested the Bosch motor over and it had a really bad resistance when you hit the limited top speed.

Thanks

[waynebergman]

Hi Mike
I am thinking back to when I first got the bike when I was on pavement with hills to ride down that would let me feel if it coasted after max speed and letting gravity take you even faster . I think it coasted just fine after the max speed was reached but its been a while. I am in Arizona right now and lots of mountains for MTBing but I am not near any hills that have pavement. I will find one for you and test. Also I will see how easy it is to get to max speed on the flats with pedal assist at level 5 which is max power. If I remember right it was easy to get it to max speed in the flats. Yes it continues to be a bit of a mystery after all this time hardly any of these drives are out there. I have not heard of one single M600 with throttle except mine in North America. I have mixed feelings when riding it as I feel I have a great bike thats kind of rare at this point but allways with my fingers crossed that nothing goes wrong with it.

[mike425]

That would be great thanks, I think you are the first person I have seen with this motor. I totally get the parts support worries, I am in the process of building a frame for the g510 motor as a commuter/trail bike.

Spare parts over here seem almost impossible to come by for these mid integrated motors.

I have been looking at the m600 as a potential to build an enduro full suspension frame around. I toyed with the idea of using the g510 but it weighs over 7kg which is way to much for a decent MTB.

The m600 on paper sounds ideal as the weight and power sound perfect. It would just be great to know whether it is really in the same ball park as the Bosch/shimano offerings for a proper MTB motor

[waynebergman]

I will keep you updated Mike on your questions. One option (sounds a little crazy however) buy two complete drives with two batteries and go the dengfu route. Still cheaper than a specilized or the German stuff and you have a throttle to boot.

[Animalector]

I haven't actually ridden the m600 yet. But I owned and thrashed the previous 350w torque sensor model on an enduro bike and I am confident that it was "right up there" with the likes of Bosch and Shimano. The torque control was excellent, very natural feel, good torque and much quieter than the Shimano. So my guess is the m600 is an improvement.

Andy

[waynebergman]

Mike to answer your question on coasting after full speed and how easy to pedal assist to full speed here is what I tested today......

On dead flat aground pedalling fairly hard the bike getts up to 43 km no problem. Once the drive cuts out at this speed you can feel the bike slowing because the motor cuts out even if you are still pedalling fairly hard, if you were going down hill you would still be able to COAST faster. So there is no drag coming from the motor just the stopping of the power from the motor so it seems like a bit of a motor break but it is not. I think with the Europe style of programing limits a lower speeds it would be more noticable and annoying but I find at 43 km I am going fast enough anyways and its not an issue at all. Also the reason we get a good range out of these 600wh pack is from the lower speeds so I am fine with the way the cut out works at a max speed of 43km. Not all of these drives come with this pre programed in this way, some will cut out earlier but I dont knnow at what speed, maybe 30km not sure. With very light pedal input - as in just enough to active the torque sensing you are running around 25km on flat ground powerlevel 5 using about 850 watts.

I am 63 years old and not that strong for pedal input and 43km is not problem but it is a bit of a workout, hopes this helps.

[mike425]

Hi, thanks for that write up, it's very helpful.

I had presumed that the higher top speed on these would mostly hide over any resistance as well but it's good to confirm it.

I need to finish this g510 frame I am making and then I'm pretty set on the m600 now for build number 2.

I had been speaking with dengfu about the fame you have as it does look the part. I don't know why but the fact it's carbon worries me more than if it were alloy. I would be using it at bike parks and for some DH racing so with it being so unsupported over here I have my doubts.

It definitely looks like you biting the bullet had paid off as the whole build looks awesome.

[Bigwheel]

I have been looking for an M600 equipped bike for awhile and gone to some lengths overseas that in the future will be beneficial if in fact the system works as well as it looks like it will. It is funny that this bike never showed up on my radar but I might just get one in order to test the system as it will be cheaper than getting a sample from the suppliers I have been working with.

https://flx.bike/collections/bikes/products/trail

Screen Shot 2019-02-21 at 11.10.01 PM.png (155.52 KiB) Viewed 784 times

It is a hardtail with not so great components but I can swap out for the better bits I have in stock. Probably relace the wheels with wider rims and source a 140mm fork which would slacken the ht a bit. I would go for the bigger battery and definitely the throttle option.

[waynebergman]

Thanks for posting this Bigwheel. I see the web site for FLX has there contact info regarding test/demo rides. I have pasted it here...
4170 Morena Blvd, Suite D San Diego, California 92117
Hours: Monday - Sunday 10AM-5PM
Phone: (844)-548-3359
Email: hello@flx.bike
They also seem to able to offer diffferent max power programing for US or regional limits so that is encouraging. I will call them to see if they offer any kind of M600 support for parts or service.
Also Bigwheel, keep us updated on how the service is from this vendor, not big on their bikes but if they offer service and or parts for the M600 drive this could be a really good find.........wayne

[Bigwheel]

The way I read it was that it ships with the throttle restricted to 20mph and PAS @28mph. That would work fine for me as I only use throttle in low speed situations but don't want to run up against any shut off with the PAS at 20mph like a typical Class 1 does. May be a few weeks before I pull the trigger as I have other things going on but if and when I do I will update here or start another thread perhaps to not clog up yours Wayne.

The interesting thing regarding the throttle however is that it doesn't appear that the battery is the stock Bafang unit yet you indicate that the throttle is tied to the battery on your bike? Perhaps FLX made a BMS that has the CANbus protocols necessary, I guess a call to their offices would straighten that out. The most important thing is that it does have a throttle function and weighs significantly less than the Ultra model Blade albeit with less power. The weight difference between the FLX Blade and the Trail is around 10lbs, 46/56.

[waynebergman]

Interesting to know bigwheel. No worries at all posting anything related to the M600 drive on this thread, I welcome it. The drive is the main thing we will all surely want to share info on. All the different frames will come and go but the M600 and its components are what we want info on.

Interesting I see the throttle they supply at FLX is the trigger one. I have tried that and did not like it at all. Behaved like an on off switch if you ask me. I hacked a Luna cheapy throttle shown in this thread earlier and used the connector from the trigger throttle which seemed to work much better. Also I wonder when they claim the speed limit being different on the throttle than the pedal assist are they truely using a speed cut out for the throttle or just dumb down the amps for the throttle use on all its powe levels? This is important because on my bike the throttle is linked to the power level you choose which is also a bummer, it would be much better if the throttle could overide the pedal assist setting and give full power at any time but it does not, which means a nice low power setting for pedaling around in tight trails will only give you lame throttle boost and if FLX has further dumbed down throttle output this could be bad. Now if FLX has crippled the throttle by speed only that would be OK as you maybe still have the full 850 watts on tap but only up to a certain speed . Who knows? It will be good to talk to them and see if they actualy reprogram or even understand how it has be reprogramed.

Thanks again Bigwheel and keep us posted if you hear any details from FLX, I have left a phone message at FLX myself to find out more details from them, let hope they support and underestand the M600 drive.

[Bigwheel]

I agree Wayne that sorting out the M600, which I think we both see the potential of as well as others, is the main goal. It is funny that Bafang doesn't seem interested in supporting it, but they really haven't been all that supportive of some of their other drives. I have saved this article for over 2 years now: https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws/201 ... s-10130989 it even mentions near future spec of 21700 cells which is part of my equation.

There is a company called BTN that does OEM bikes in China with a warehouse and representative in Vegas that has their office in the same building as Bafang, USA? I am in contact with the guy Kevin there to see if he can get any answers but am afraid it is the typical asian "it can do" "how many units want you" line of support.....Although my goal is to do multiple units with the M600 until I can get to a version that is sell worthy for the purpose I feel most warranted via testing it isn't happening.

[Vividguy]

Hi everyone

Just wanted to say that my bike is 90% ready.
Thanks you all for the help, specially Wayne.
The bike runs smooth.. 40km/h on a flat.
The geometry is very nice and fits for my trail use.
The build was a hard thing to do.. Any new ones who approach it should understand bike mech.

[Rydon]

Hi everyone

Just wanted to say that my bike is 90% ready.
Thanks you all for the help, specially Wayne.
The bike runs smooth.. 40km/h on a flat.
The geometry is very nice and fits for my trail use.
The build was a hard thing to do.. Any new ones who approach it should understand bike mech.

There are a lot of lurkers (interested parties) on this thread like me. If you could provide some build details battery, components, etc. it would be appreciated. Problems you had. Pictures too.

[Vividguy]

1. Fox 34 150mm fork,fox preformane 51/200mm on the rear.
2. custom 48V 12ma Battery without that strange com. protocol.
3.running 1*9 shiftter shimano alivio , cassate 11-42 sunrace.
4.Bafang M600 mid drive, magura MT5 180mm rotor.

about the build it's you on your own, there specific tools like locking ring tool that no one haves.
the installation of the engine took a while because the frame motor housing didn't fit ...sand scarpt it
a lot of fitting adj. on the rear susp. and other stuff.

It's not a job for beginners, I wish everyone good luck and I will keep posting