New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

The other thing about longer cranks you missed here is that they work better for tall folks and bikes are generally supplied with cranks in proportion to frame size. Even high end racing bikes for racers. With my 35.5" cycling inseam (measured to the ground) I have ridden 175s on my pedal bikes including racing bikes for a very very long time. No way that I should be riding the same size cranks that a 5'4" woman would. I have no trouble spinning those up to warp speed when necessary. I plan to get the Shimano 175 cranks for my TSDZ2 e-bike.

Not sure what you mean by the motor pulling on the bike and brakes whilst stopped since you don't have brake switches. The motor provides no power unless it sees torque from pedaling. The only time I see the brake switches being necessary would be if you had a throttle (which you don't) and had that pressed (or if it was stuck) at the same time as the brakes. The brake switches override the throttle.

I use pieces of iron or copper pipe as cheaters on the ends of my bike bottom bracket tools when they are stuck. That gets em off, unless they are fully corrosion welded into the frame. Sometimes a *little* heat helps... but never on a CF bike.

I am about to be retired, too.

Retrorockit said:

One is the longer cranks available from Shimano in the E600 series 175mm which is what I'm running on my BBSHD. It not only produces more torque it also favors a slower cadence. There is a pedaling style that goes with long cranks. Racers scoff at it because it inefficient due to having to raise and lower the whole leg a greater distance but for false flats or short rises it's a lot of fun to maintain your cadence when everyone else is dropping a gear and spinning like mad. It involves dropping the heel on the upstroke so you can start the power stroke sooner. The longer cranks give you room to do this. Then extend the ankle across the bottom of the stroke and keep the power going around the bottom. The longer cranks cost you power very stroke due to raisng the leg higher on the upstroke. This involves the calf muscles more but very few people do this naturally or continuosly. I learned about the inefficiency when I tried a set of 180mm cranks.
My take on the need for a delay with no brake switches is it seems to me with no cadence or speed sensor shutoff the motor is pulling againt the brakes the whole timeyou're stopped. This can't be good for the motor or the battery. I also wonder if an extra magnet or 2 would help with the walk assist sensitivity?
Here's a link to my BBSHD project if anybody wants to look at my setup. Nothing TSDZ2 there of course. There's a summary near the end if the whole thing doesn't interest you.
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/main-forum/diy-discussion/73463-gary-fisher-solsitice-bbshd-project

Click to expand...

My thinking is that standing still at a stop w/o brake switches and a leg /foot on the pedal applies some torque. Unless of course you artificialy stop at 6 O'clock which isn't normal ( or very useful). I would want a cadence sensor delay. But I haven't installed mine yet so I'll see what happens.
Yes I did leave out the size factor. My cycling inseam is 34" so I could go either way. Back in the day I could spin the 175s too. But with a motor I feel like I'm just pushing air. 50tx11t and 175 cranks I can cruise at 25-28MPH and feel like I'm doing something. But if the motor is forcing a "low" cadence then long cranks and long gears can help. But yes for many people particulary most orientals 170mm may actually be a long crank. On serious road bikes 172.5 is considered very long.

My 1/2" drive impact wrench was starting to tear up the splines on the BB nut.

I don't think the torque sensor is that sensitive. If the weather ever breaks I'll get out and see how it behaves at a stop with no brakes and report back. As for cadence, the motor doesn't force anything. It has a freehub mech in it and you can pedal at any cadence you want. My 52v version assists up to 100 RPM but I am free to spin faster if I want on my own watts... which I don't really want or need.

Plenty of very high end road bikes and racers around here with 175s. I have 2 of them. Stumpy cranks are for little people.

Retrorockit said:

My thinking is that standing still at a stop w/o brake switches and a leg /foot on the pedal applies some torque. Unless of course you artificialy stop at 6 O'clock which isn't normal ( or very useful). I would want a cadence sensor delay. But I haven't installed mine yet so I'll see what happens.
Yes I did leave out the size factor. My cycling inseam is 34" so I could go either way. Back in the day I could spin the 175s too. But with a motor I feel like I'm just pushing air. 50tx11t and 175 cranks I can cruise at 25-28MPH and feel like I'm doing something. But if the motor is forcing a "low" cadence then long cranks and long gears can help. But yes for many people particulary most orientals 170mm may actually be a long crank. On serious road bikes 172.5 is considered very long.

My 1/2" drive impact wrench was starting to tear up the splines on the BB nut.

Click to expand...

I need help with some troubleshooting here:

Recently my LBS did an oil change on my hub and replaced the chain on my cargo bike. This moved the the whole rear wheel slightly forward so that due to a bit of wheel flexing my rear studded winter tyre slowly chewed away on the the speedo sensor cable coming out of the motor.

The funny thing is, the motor continued working all the time, but I didn't notice that the display at some point stopped working (XH-18 inside the bar mitts - it doesn't get looked at that often).

But, I've lost the walk assist, ability to change the assist level (it seems to be stuck in level 3) and the speedlimiter seems to cut assistance at around 23 km/h (gps-speed). The power button works though. I tried another display, and the results are the same.

Upon inspection I see that the green wire has been completely broken, and the black and orange (I think) where partly cut. Anyway. I repaired the cable by joining them up again and adding a bit of heat shrink tubing to cover it all up.

But that didn't really fix anything. Now I'm wondering if I might have shorted something on the controller. Perhaps those metal studs on my snow tires had a part in that - I dunno.

So the question is, should I look some other obvious places before I order a new controller?

The bike works fine, though, but I miss beeing able to change the assist level. I removed the magnet to bypass the speedlimiter as 23 (maybe 22) km/h is a bit on the slow side. I prefer 27 km/h which is within the legal limit, but no magnet makes my bike an illegal moped.

Hey, just a quick heads up, colours for the motor to display have changed. Just bought a new 36v version, white is now yellow and purple is now red. Speed sensor colours did not change. See pictures attached.
Great project, kudos to the developers!

The 52v, and overdrive 48V setups can go 100+RPM. But the basic 36V and 48V stop assisting at 90rpm. I saw a lot of discussion about getting these to run faster than that, but nothing about riding under the 90RPM "limit". I'm not a Guru or expert on the subject. I just thought it was an appropriate subject to consider. I'm located in the US and may not be as knowledgable as others due to that. The myth of Lance Armstrong is all we have.
Stripped down the small frame Trek and took the frameset to the LBS. He got the BB out OK. I gave him the motor and we looked at the gap to the chainstay. I'm having him take the BB frame facing tool and cut the BB shell down until the motor touches the chainstay. I'll get some shims in case I need them. So 73mm BB fixed. The motor tube was a snug fit in the frame. Maybe it's the steel and high alloy frames with thinner BB shells that wiggle around?

How did he get the BB out? I am always up for learning and comparing techniques. Lance... <sigh>. Don't even get me started.

Retrorockit said:

The myth of Lance Armstrong is all we have.

Stripped down the small frame Trek and took the frameset to the LBS. He got the BB out OK.

Click to expand...

The BB problem I had was that with "long" tools the bike was moving around too much. The shop has a workstand and that made all the difference. I was working with the bike turned upside down and no helpers available. Since I needed the BB shell trimmed I was going to the shop anyway. I pass by about a dozen other shops to see the one guy who likes and understands what I'm doing. He works on anything that comes through the door. So my parts swapping is business as usual for him. I may be the only person who actually surprises him with what I'm doing. When I hand him an NOS Rapid Rise 8 speed ShimanoGrip shifter from 2000 his eyes light up and he knows exactly why I want that part, and how rare it is to find one in new condition. Everybody else just says "what for?"
I'll post my BBSHD drivetrain here because it could be relevant to others.
On a 26" bike I'm running a 50T Narrow/Wide chainring, and a Sunrace 11-40 8 speed casette.
The 8 speed is for chain strength, and also allows RAPID Rise shifters and derailers which don't exist in 10Spd and up ASFAIK. Also it's what the bike came with and I have many spares for testing.
I'm going to Wippermann 8SE chain. KMC Missing Link folds up. Will rivet my chains if I need to.
XTR Rapid Rise short cage derailer, Shimano Rapid Rise 8 speed Twist shifter.
The RR setup allows downshift while sitting still. The shift won't happen until after the bike rolls forward but the shifter can be shifted sitting still. Useful for sudden stops in traffic where using both brakes, an air horn and throttle might take priority.
I didn't use the derailer hanger adapter but cut 2 Wheelsmith 6065 hangers in 2/3 size pieces and welded them together to make one long enough for the 40T casette which didn't exist in the Rapid Rise era. By not using cast parts it can be bent for alignment during service.
My chainline isn't perfect, I'm using a flat gear because no one makes an offset 50t.
The 11-40 casette for street lets me take off in the 28T 3rd gear (front wheel up with 1500W)
This makes the chainline acceptable. The 2 lowest gears 34-40T are there just to keep the speed down for operating around pedestrians or on uneven terrain. I use very little power in those gears to avoid spitting the chain. 11,13,15,18,22,28,34,40t. 50x11t is an overdrive for occasional use. It uses a lot of watts to run it very much.

An other montage of temperature sensor (LM35) . with a cooper sheet direct the stator.
Easy and direct.
Cheers

After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.

Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to refer to.

sysrq said:

After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.

Click to expand...

Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to post to and refer to when needed.

sysrq said:

After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.

Click to expand...

[/quote]

First real test ride today on my TSDZ2 bike. I just did 10 miles from the house including the 2 mile climb back up. The bike performed flawlessly and I had a big grin on my face all the way. Used about 1/2 of my EGO 5 Ah battery. I need to get out on my real road bike Monday. After this nasty unrideable winter that will be more of a grimace than a grin.

kalleg said:

I'm about to start a 2-wheel cargo build (Bullit-style Longjohn but in steel), and have a few questions. I understand theres quite a few variables concerning which motor to buy, and I have a hard time getting my head around it. I already have a BBS02 48V 750W system on a different cargo bike, so I would like to stay with 48V for compatibility. I'm gunning for an IGH 3 or 7 gears on a 26" rear wheel. I will transport my two kids and myself which adds up to about 120-130 kg atm. The commute is mostly flat with a long slight incline at each end (I would love a nice combination of torque and speed). I'm looking to buy from PSWPowers german stock, as I live in Copenhagen. I'm planning to run the Open Source firmware with the KT-LCD3.

In your opinion, should i go for overvolting the 36V to 48V, or should I go with a 48V version from the get-go? I also had the understanding that an electric motor runs cooler at higher cadence in regards to overloading. Is this true?

ATM I have my eyes on this one (8-pin version!?):

Also do you have any advice as to how I should set the gearing (front and rear sprocket size/teeth)? Again there's a lot of variables. The Nexus IGH3 seems like a simple and cheap solution:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/...-power-speed-nexus-3-igh-paired-with-a-bbs02/

Let me know if you have any advice. Thanks all for your great work and information.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a fun project. In your case everything follows a pedal cadence that is comfortable for you. After you have that number you know what motor to order. On your bike find a gear that is comfortable and time how many crank rotations you make per minute. For example count the revolutions you make in two minutes and divide by two. The the motor decision is probably easy. Your natural cadence is probably 80 rpm or less (most people are in that range). In your case that means a 48V motor on a 48V battery. Use the standard 42T front chainring. It gives the best chainline. Personally I would buy 8-pin because throttle/temp sensor can be added later.

If your natural cadence is over 90 you may want to run a 36V motor on 48V. If you are definitely going open source with the KT-LCD3 no issues, buy a 36V system and set the battery parameters with the KT-LCD3. If you are using stock display and firmware for a while you would need to flash stock 48V firmware onto the 36V controller.

kalleg said:

I also had the understanding that an electric motor runs cooler at higher cadence in regards to overloading. Is this true?

Click to expand...

It is a factor in a limited technical sense but not worth worrying about.

3 vs 7 speed, the rear cog, the amount of power you will use in assist all interact, but the nice thing about an IGH is the rear cog is easy to change to lower or raise the whole range. If you really want to calculate in advance you need to know:
1. Your natural cadence
2. Grade of the steepest hill you want to climb (you can use google elevation to figure this out for a given climb)
3. Power use on the flat (do you want to go fast and draw 350W? Do you want to save battery and draw 150W?) this tells you the speed to gear to at natural cadence
4. the ratios in the hub for each gear

Use bikecalculator.com if you want to to get a feel about how watts relate to hills, weight, and speed.

It's a lot of calculation (the sort of thing I love), but if you aren't an engineer you can pick a common rear cog and adjust if the range is too high or low.

I live in hill country so I cannot imagine choosing 3-speed over a 7-speed, but in Denmark 3-speeds might make total sense if the jumps between gears are not too large. If it is a wide range 3-speed you could end up only using one gear. If you never see more than a long slight incline you might not need gears at all, just a well-chosen rear cog. Use more assist and climb the long slight hill at the same speed you ride on the flat.

raylo32 said:

Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to refer to.

sysrq said:

After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The service manual was available somewhere in this thread, so I'll have to check that out for any pictures instead.

Here is a gear calculator tool that includes IGH ratios. It can solve for whatever cadence you choose, and output in various units.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
One option that might interest you is the SRAM DD3-24 hub.
It's a 3 speed IGH with an 8 speed etc. casette on it. It basically replaces the front triple crankset with an IGH. The front ring ends up acting as a middle ring.
https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/sram-dd3-24
In the US Luna Cycles sells these at a decent price.

sysrq said:

raylo32 said:

Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to refer to.

sysrq said:

After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The service manual was available somewhere in this thread, so I'll have to check that out for any pictures instead.

Click to expand...

I dont remember pics but here is two videos from jbalat who has been quiet lately in this forum. He has also great videos for programming.

Replacing sprag glutch: [quote]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-SY0rGMEMo[/quote]

Blue Gear Replacement and Service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTbDKN2GzNE

Hi!

I've been riding a tsdz2 for a while now, with the open-source firmware. It works quite good, not as good as my former bosch performance but it works. I burned the 48v motor some times ago, I hope because of some water that could get in the motor (the cover was not totally waterproof because a phase cable was caught between the motor and it). Or because of the heat...
So I ordered a 36V motor and it is really nice when powered at 48V. The freewheel in the metal gear was also stuck so I changed it for a blue one and ordered a new metal one.

Now I have a quite big problem: the motor makes jolts during the first kilometres. Does anyone already encounters such things? It's like he can't give any power, starts, stops, starts again, then after some time it works without any problem. I got it appart twice since then with no result... Any help?

Thanks

Excellent, thanks. I hope I can find these when I need them. I subscribed to the channel. That should do it.

dameri said:

sysrq said:

raylo32 said:

Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to refer to.



I dont remember pics but here is two videos from jbalat who has been quiet lately in this forum. He has also great videos for programming.

Replacing sprag glutch: [quote]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-SY0rGMEMo[/quote]

Blue Gear Replacement and Service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTbDKN2GzNE

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I wonder if that might be the torque sensor failing?

Diva said:

Hi!

I've been riding a tsdz2 for a while now, with the open-source firmware. It works quite good, not as good as my former bosch performance but it works. I burned the 48v motor some times ago, I hope because of some water that could get in the motor (the cover was not totally waterproof because a phase cable was caught between the motor and it). Or because of the heat...
So I ordered a 36V motor and it is really nice when powered at 48V. The freewheel in the metal gear was also stuck so I changed it for a blue one and ordered a new metal one.

Now I have a quite big problem: the motor makes jolts during the first kilometres. Does anyone already encounters such things? It's like he can't give any power, starts, stops, starts again, then after some time it works without any problem. I got it appart twice since then with no result... Any help?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Yes, I'll maybe try to change it as I have a motor for spare parts... I'll tell you what comes out of that "for the science"

I bet that is a little more involved than the simple blue gear greasing or replacement which from the video you linked seems almost trivial. I'd like to see a video of the torque sensor R&R. I didn't look to see if the author also had one for this procedure.

Diva said:

Yes, I'll maybe try to change it as I have a motor for spare parts... I'll tell you what comes out of that "for the science"

Click to expand...

Diva said:

Hi!

I've been riding a tsdz2 for a while now, with the open-source firmware. It works quite good, not as good as my former bosch performance but it works. I burned the 48v motor some times ago, I hope because of some water that could get in the motor (the cover was not totally waterproof because a phase cable was caught between the motor and it). Or because of the heat...
So I ordered a 36V motor and it is really nice when powered at 48V. The freewheel in the metal gear was also stuck so I changed it for a blue one and ordered a new metal one.

Now I have a quite big problem: the motor makes jolts during the first kilometres. Does anyone already encounters such things? It's like he can't give any power, starts, stops, starts again, then after some time it works without any problem. I got it appart twice since then with no result... Any help?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Sounds like a bad connection somewhere. When everything heats up and expands after a while then the connection improves. I would not fallow this advice myself since it could be anything or something entirely different as well.
The tsdz2 appears to be notorious for being jolty in general, especially at 4th assistance level, since 1th, 2nd and 3rd assistance levels give impression of slowing down than assisting.

Price of tsdz2 went up again. For the last 2-3 months pswpower changed price at least 3 times. Now tsdz2 48V 750W with throttle in German warehouse is €345 ($390). A bit insane?

[/quote]

Hi tomtom (& all)

I've read your tutorial, and followed this thread for a while. I'm about to start a 2-wheel cargo build (Bullit-style Longjohn but in steel), and have a few questions. I understand theres quite a few variables concerning which motor to buy, and I have a hard time getting my head around it. I already have a BBS02 48V 750W system on a different cargo bike, so I would like to stay with 48V for compatibility. I'm gunning for an IGH 3 or 7 gears on a 26" rear wheel. I will transport my two kids and myself which adds up to about 120-130 kg atm. The commute is mostly flat with a long slight incline at each end (I would love a nice combination of torque and speed). I'm looking to buy from PSWPowers german stock, as I live in Copenhagen. I'm planning to run the Open Source firmware with the KT-LCD3.
[/quote]

I'm new to this forum and having trouble with the quote tool.
I mentioned the SRAM DDS3-24. But I've become aware of a better option. Sturmey Archer makes an IGH 3 speed that takes 8-9 speed casettes also. Much stronger and probably better parts availability than SRAM.
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/cs-rk3-silver