Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 20 2019 7:41pm

Panels are about 55c/W at the wholesale price:
Panel Wholesale Price.JPG
Inverters are about $800.

We have installers offering complete 6.6 kW systems for $3000. Crazy cheap.

cricketo   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 21 2019 1:34am

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 19 2019 11:05pm
What happened when i bought a house with Solar already installed..
What happened to pedant in you ? You didn't buy squat with solar installed, somebody else did :) Second, I am actually a SunRun customer with 2kW array (I have another 6kW array that I own in another location). As such I fail to see the morale of the story. SunRun had multiple models to run their business. I've paid a small amount upfront, and got a contract with them for 20 years without any additional costs. If I sell my house, new owner will continue to operate the array without paying anything to anyone for it, while enjoying NetMetering with the power company.

cricketo   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 21 2019 1:40am

jonescg wrote:
Feb 20 2019 7:41pm
Panels are about 55c/W at the wholesale price:
Panel Wholesale Price.JPG

Inverters are about $800.

We have installers offering complete 6.6 kW systems for $3000. Crazy cheap.
My project with SunRun was about $14,000 for rooftop 2kW in 2011. Only half or so of that amount was equipment cost back then. The rest of it was contractor overhead.

I also think your numbers are way off. Even if you get the cheapest panels at $0.55 per watt (such as from wholesalesolar.com), you're still not getting away with less than $3500 for panels alone. Then add racking (definitely not free), and inverter. 5-6kW grid-tied inverter for $800 ? Good luck!
Last edited by cricketo on Feb 21 2019 2:10am, edited 1 time in total.

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 21 2019 2:46am

cricketo wrote:
Feb 21 2019 1:40am
jonescg wrote:
Feb 20 2019 7:41pm
Panels are about 55c/W at the wholesale price:
Panel Wholesale Price.JPG

Inverters are about $800.

We have installers offering complete 6.6 kW systems for $3000. Crazy cheap.
My project with SunRun was about $14,000 for rooftop 2kW in 2011. Only half or so of that amount was equipment cost back then. The rest of it was contractor overhead.

I also think your numbers are way off. Even if you get the cheapest panels at $0.55 per watt (such as from wholesalesolar.com), you're still not getting away with less than $3500 for panels alone. Then add racking (definitely not free), and inverter. 5-6kW grid-tied inverter for $800 ? Good luck!
GTI.JPG
GTI.JPG (32.6 KiB) Viewed 657 times
Panels get a bit cheaper by the sea container load, and all the racking needed for a 5 kW array comes to about $250.
I still don't know how some installers can pitch a no-strings 6.6 kW system for under $3000, but they do. The (much maligned) federal incentives amount to about $1000 on a good day; even so, installed solar in Australia is massively cheap.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 21 2019 6:19am

Solar rooftop pricing in the USA drifted down since the last time I looked. 7.44 kW grid tie system parts delivered for $10,700 including 24 power optimizers. $1.44/ Watt
.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891214/ ... 10w-panels
.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/9994650/ ... -optimizer
.

cricketo   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 21 2019 10:41am

jonescg wrote:
Feb 21 2019 2:46am
Panels get a bit cheaper by the sea container load, and all the racking needed for a 5 kW array comes to about $250.
I still don't know how some installers can pitch a no-strings 6.6 kW system for under $3000, but they do. The (much maligned) federal incentives amount to about $1000 on a good day; even so, installed solar in Australia is massively cheap.
I guess you're right, though I'm wondering about quality of those things - too much price discrepancy with a lot of major vendors.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 21 2019 11:46pm

cricketo wrote:
Feb 21 2019 1:34am
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 19 2019 11:05pm
What happened when i bought a house with Solar already installed..
What happened to pedant in you ? You didn't buy squat with solar installed, somebody else did :) Second, I am actually a SunRun customer with 2kW array (I have another 6kW array that I own in another location). As such I fail to see the morale of the story. SunRun had multiple models to run their business. I've paid a small amount upfront, and got a contract with them for 20 years without any additional costs. If I sell my house, new owner will continue to operate the array without paying anything to anyone for it, while enjoying NetMetering with the power company.
Are you really telling us that you got a 20 year contract for a $14k system, with costs frozen for 20 yrs ?
and if someone buys that house tomorrow, they do not have to continue the contract payments ?
Something does not add up there ?
PS... You need to check facts before rattling the keyboard....or just keep quiet.
I have just bought a house with solar installed.....which is why i came across this article !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

cricketo   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 22 2019 2:36am

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 21 2019 11:46pm
Are you really telling us that you got a 20 year contract for a $14k system, with costs frozen for 20 yrs ?
and if someone buys that house tomorrow, they do not have to continue the contract payments ?
Correct.
Something does not add up there ?
US companies that were leasing solar systems were feeding on various incentives and tax benefits. This system has already paid off for SunRun, and now it's a solid depreciation write off that they can use for funding other projects.
I have just bought a house with solar installed.....which is why i came across this article !
Render me shocked! Also you started looking for articles about solar on houses after you bought one ? Double shocked!

Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Feb 22 2019 4:04am

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 21 2019 11:46pm
I have just bought a house with solar installed.....which is why i came across this article !
I assume you'll be removing and junking the PV system on principle? ;)

cricketo   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 22 2019 12:03pm

Punx0r wrote:
Feb 22 2019 4:04am

I assume you'll be removing and junking the PV system on principle? ;)
:mrgreen:

Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Feb 22 2019 2:14pm

I'm sure there's room for an open fireplace. I can attest from experience that there's nothing quite like burning bucketfuls of filthy coal that stinks out your street (or your living room when things go wrong) to provide heating at 5% efficiency that takes 1-2 hours to kick in after you need it and requires constant maintenance 8)

Ianhill   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Feb 22 2019 3:09pm

I'm not using coal or will I since our valley stopped the majority of use I can go in my attic and not have a layer of soot over the plastic xmas tree.

I will say though that a decent coal fireplace is around 80% efficient less for an open fire but nowhere near 5% unless you trying to heat your house from next doors fireplace.

And if a house takes 2 hours to heat from coal god help it with any other source, how big is the house are they the queen ?

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 22 2019 7:36pm

Germany wind was running 20% of capacity and their solar PEAKED at 17% of capacity for a few hours at midday. 470 gm CO2 all day.
.
https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=co ... tryCode=DE
.
France was under 75 gm.
.
https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=co ... tryCode=FR
.
Cali went from 290 gm to 170 gm once the Sun came up.
.
https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=co ... Code=US-CA
.
NY rides along at 220.
.
https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=co ... Code=US-NY
.
Ontario also cruises at 90.
.
https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=co ... Code=CA-ON
.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Feb 22 2019 10:08pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 21 2019 6:19am
Solar rooftop pricing in the USA drifted down since the last time I looked. 7.44 kW grid tie system parts delivered for $10,700 including 24 power optimizers. $1.44/ Watt
Yep. Then there's racking. Then there's conduit, wire and protection. Then there's installation. (And installing most any racking system takes a lot of labor.) Then there's permitting; fees for drawings and applications.

You end up at about $3/watt unless you do everything yourself. Then you can get away for about $2/watt.
--bill von

cricketo   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 22 2019 10:55pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 22 2019 10:08pm
Yep. Then there's racking. Then there's conduit, wire and protection. Then there's installation. (And installing most any racking system takes a lot of labor.) Then there's permitting; fees for drawings and applications.

You end up at about $3/watt unless you do everything yourself. Then you can get away for about $2/watt.
+1

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 23 2019 1:14am

Wow. I guess you guys in the USA have tariffs applied to solar panels and stuff?

In the land of sunshine down under:
Un-subsidised solar panels are $0.56/W
Un-subsidised inverters are as los as $850 each for a 5 kW GTI, but as high as $2600 with all the fruit.
Racking, cable, conduit and ancilliaries might come to $500 on a big job.
Labour is about $50/h (only the sparky charges $200/h, for an hour of his time).

Hence we get ads like this: http://regenpower.com/solar-power-offer ... ItEALw_wcB

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Feb 23 2019 1:26am

jonescg wrote:
Feb 23 2019 1:14am
Racking, cable, conduit and ancilliaries might come to $500 on a big job.
Wow, you guys must have REALLY cheap copper and aluminum down there.
--bill von

Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Feb 23 2019 6:32am

Ianhill wrote:
Feb 22 2019 3:09pm

I will say though that a decent coal fireplace is around 80% efficient less for an open fire but nowhere near 5% unless you trying to heat your house from next doors fireplace.

And if a house takes 2 hours to heat from coal god help it with any other source, how big is the house are they the queen ?
Sorry, typo, should have been 15% (normal range is 10-20%). Combustion efficiency might be 80% but most of that heat goes straight up the chimney: it's really only the radiant heat that warms the room. And it is the room (or half of it unless it's small), not the house. Each room needs it's own fireplace. Oh, and the chimney needs to draw cold air from outside into the house to work (else it spites you by filling the room with smoke) from ou You come home to a house that's cold-soaked all day. It's then 30-60 mins depending on fuel type from lighting to when the fire is chucking out decent heat, then another hour to warm the room. Then when you get up in the morning, it's freezing again. And it needs cleaning out, and you need to fetch more coal and kindling, and yoy need to keep paying someone to come and sweep the chimney. Good for ambiance but a 2kW electric fan heater is far superior in every way.

Thankfully a coal-fire power plant is more efficient, but the other shortcomings are very similar.

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 23 2019 8:51am

billvon wrote:
Feb 23 2019 1:26am
jonescg wrote:
Feb 23 2019 1:14am
Racking, cable, conduit and ancilliaries might come to $500 on a big job.
Wow, you guys must have REALLY cheap copper and aluminum down there.
Yep. So a 5 kW system calls for 8 of these:
alu rail.JPG
alu rail.JPG (41.36 KiB) Viewed 549 times
2.5 of these:
clamps.JPG
clamps.JPG (48.13 KiB) Viewed 549 times
Cable is $1 a metre, isolators are $50 each... I think $500 is about right.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 23 2019 9:17am

The complete parts call out is listed for the 7.44kW/ $10,700 system that I linked to if you scroll down the page to see what is needed for a rooftop install.
.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891214/ ... 10w-panels
.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 23 2019 9:36am

Excellent new Chris Martenson essay.
.
"The widest wealth gap in human history
Massive income inequality
Entire generations saddled with high debts and low opportunities
Broken “markets” that have become policy signaling devices for the central planners, offering no price discovery or reliability to investors
Ripping the last oil and gas out of the ground as fast as possible while not using any of it to build out a sustainable energy infrastructure
Losing species at a rapid pace that nobody can comprehend let alone predict what the effects might be"
.
https://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/114 ... ndhog-show
.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 23 2019 11:16am

Daniel Christian Wahl
.
"Ultimately, the shift towards a regenerative human civilization and increased human and planetary health will require a majority of global citizens to assume full responsibility for their co-creative involvement in shaping humanity’s and the planet’s future. To a greater or lesser extent, we are all designers of this future. We can intentionally choose to create healing relationships in the communities and ecosystems in which we participate"
.
https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/sca ... XjZW1md96k
.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Feb 23 2019 11:26am

jonescg wrote:
Feb 23 2019 8:51am
Yep. So a 5 kW system calls for 8 of these . . . Cable is $1 a metre, isolators are $50 each... I think $500 is about right.
Well, good luck. I've seen similar math from people on several US solar forums, and they all come to the same conclusion - those installers are totally ripping me off! I can do it myself for half that! The ones that keep posting are interesting; they talk about all the hidden costs they didn't expect, and how their 2 week install turned into a 4 month one. The ones that can pull it off without major troubles/redesigns/delays end up paying about $2/watt.
--bill von

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 23 2019 6:19pm

Who Can explain the correlation shown in thiis chart ?....
Image
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Feb 23 2019 7:31pm

It shows a correlation of 1 between your posts and whatever is posted on denialist blogs by know-nothing, self-professed experts spreading FUD about climate change :thumb:

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