ElectricGod
10 MW
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Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons
- Thread starter ElectricGod
- Start date
John in CR
100 TW
EG,
It's all about the stator steel. I have a strong suspicion, confirmed by high no-load currents on every motor they've put out, that our friends in Israel used the absolute cheapest stator steel they could get their mitts on to produce these motors. AFAIC it makes them not worth spending any time on one, whether it's careful rewinding for better fill like Larsb did so beautifully, or spending time detail testing like you're doing. Thank goodness I only spent $300 plus a bit for international snail mail postage along with 3 months of patience for my original batch 120, because there's no way to overcome bad stator steel other than to spin it a relatively low rpm (ie low power) I'll certainly never use it, except maybe to use to build an electric weedeater.
It's all about the stator steel. I have a strong suspicion, confirmed by high no-load currents on every motor they've put out, that our friends in Israel used the absolute cheapest stator steel they could get their mitts on to produce these motors. AFAIC it makes them not worth spending any time on one, whether it's careful rewinding for better fill like Larsb did so beautifully, or spending time detail testing like you're doing. Thank goodness I only spent $300 plus a bit for international snail mail postage along with 3 months of patience for my original batch 120, because there's no way to overcome bad stator steel other than to spin it a relatively low rpm (ie low power) I'll certainly never use it, except maybe to use to build an electric weedeater.
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
John in CR
100 TW
2 months? This thread started last June. If you're talking about a newer motor, then yeah let's hope they're better. Just take a controller and spin it up and measure the current. That simple test will immediately tell you if it's worth any more time. I'm not going thru the whole thread, but I'm have a sense of deja vu, and really can't believe more money was spent.
BTW, not only do I have HubMonsters, I have over a dozen of their original beast, the MiniMonster (a 3 phase with a 150mm diameter by 50mm) that has the same expensive top quality Japanese laminating steel as HubMonster. I was selling them for a while on the forum after the factory discontinued their production for $200, but like all 3 models, foolish knowitalls tried to say they were too good to be true and very few were smart enough to snag one. Still no one other than CSIRO with their $10k+ 1kw hubbie for solar competitions has sold a hubbie with higher efficiency than any of the 3 Monster hubbies. With a rewind to a Kv of 30 or so, the diminutive Mini-Monster would easily be a 30kw+ motor even keeping rpm relatively low at a quiet 4krpm max.
BTW, not only do I have HubMonsters, I have over a dozen of their original beast, the MiniMonster (a 3 phase with a 150mm diameter by 50mm) that has the same expensive top quality Japanese laminating steel as HubMonster. I was selling them for a while on the forum after the factory discontinued their production for $200, but like all 3 models, foolish knowitalls tried to say they were too good to be true and very few were smart enough to snag one. Still no one other than CSIRO with their $10k+ 1kw hubbie for solar competitions has sold a hubbie with higher efficiency than any of the 3 Monster hubbies. With a rewind to a Kv of 30 or so, the diminutive Mini-Monster would easily be a 30kw+ motor even keeping rpm relatively low at a quiet 4krpm max.
I encountered this company sometime around 2014 when they started spamming the endless sphere facebook page.
I remember thinking... okay, let's give these guys a chance because they're a small motor manufacturer and it seems like a cool item for ES users..
I asked for a standard dyno sheet and what size laminations were in the motor and they immediately started dodging questions.
I wrote them off as a shitty company and stopped paying attention and later banned them for violating our sales rules again ( ads belong in the sales group )
It seems that they are selling these low quality material motors in a misleading way. Peak power is probably quoted as continuous power. Because there is no way you can make that kind of power *continuously* without thin laminations and/or really high RPM at that size. Many people got fooled by this because they don't understand electrical motor engineering ( something a lot of very smart people on this forum have been trying to teach )
Hopefully some things have changed over there and they are no longer overselling mid 2000's motor designs with those thick 0.5mm laminations.
I remember thinking... okay, let's give these guys a chance because they're a small motor manufacturer and it seems like a cool item for ES users..
I asked for a standard dyno sheet and what size laminations were in the motor and they immediately started dodging questions.
I wrote them off as a shitty company and stopped paying attention and later banned them for violating our sales rules again ( ads belong in the sales group )
It seems that they are selling these low quality material motors in a misleading way. Peak power is probably quoted as continuous power. Because there is no way you can make that kind of power *continuously* without thin laminations and/or really high RPM at that size. Many people got fooled by this because they don't understand electrical motor engineering ( something a lot of very smart people on this forum have been trying to teach )
Hopefully some things have changed over there and they are no longer overselling mid 2000's motor designs with those thick 0.5mm laminations.
John in CR
100 TW
The disappointing part with them is when they went to thinner lams, the motors didn't get any better. Since then I've always visualized them as some Israelis using ultra-cheap labor Palistinians to wind their motors. I could be wrong, but that's my impression until they put out a motor with what I feel is appropriate peak efficiency, which is the name of the game to achieve high power in a light-weight motor. In the meantime, I'd rather get the cheapest wound RC type motor from China that at least has decent lam steel and rewind it myself, since the loose hair thin type copper of Hobbyking motors "sing" at speed and break copper strands, or they have missing or strands shorted to each other, but at least the stator gives you a reasonable base to build a good motor.
John in CR said:
Hmm... did they lie about the laminations? I don't see how the motors couldn't have got better.
It's a real shame because they are the perfect size for a single reduction rear.
Yeah, it's weird to see Israelis building motors, if they are at all. Probs just speccing out some motors and reshipping them.
It is sad how little interest there is in efficiency on ebikes. You could build the CSIRO motor of hubs and only two dudes would buy one. I've been trying to badger multiple manufacturers to sell me a DD with 0.27mm lams for use in a 20" bicycle wheel. Even offered to pay 100% of the R&D even if it means a single motor costs me 4x more than their retail price, just so that i can get a prototype and dyno it. No biters!
John in CR
100 TW
They may have gotten a bit better after switching away from the .5mm steel, but the results speak for themselves in that the steel was crap. After the guy in Sweden did a great cargo ebike build based on a Revolt 120, and had nothing but heat problems and high wh/km, I wrote them off to being worse than the cheapest Chinese stuff.
To me efficiency is everything, and even moreso when it comes to hubbies. Not only does efficiency directly impact range, ie the size required of our most expensive part of any EV (the batts), but it also directly impacts performance limits. How else can an ebike hack like me get to enjoy the highest performance 2 wheel EVs? My little commuter scooter embarrasses anything but 1L or bigger sportsbikes leaving red lights, and they have to rev their engines before launch to not be bested out to nearly 1/8th mile. With my bigger machines, I can ride pretty hard (faster than all cars and motos that cross my path) during errands of 20+miles round trip, and the motors never get warmer than 70°C. Then for longer rides I can be conservative with the throttle and get close to 100mi or range... That's what efficiency does for you. Too bad the factory's claims were treated as too good to be true, otherwise many more on the forum would enjoy transportation like I have, and maybe we could have created enough demand to keep them in production. Oh well, at least I have enough for myself despite making them available to all at essentially cost.
To me efficiency is everything, and even moreso when it comes to hubbies. Not only does efficiency directly impact range, ie the size required of our most expensive part of any EV (the batts), but it also directly impacts performance limits. How else can an ebike hack like me get to enjoy the highest performance 2 wheel EVs? My little commuter scooter embarrasses anything but 1L or bigger sportsbikes leaving red lights, and they have to rev their engines before launch to not be bested out to nearly 1/8th mile. With my bigger machines, I can ride pretty hard (faster than all cars and motos that cross my path) during errands of 20+miles round trip, and the motors never get warmer than 70°C. Then for longer rides I can be conservative with the throttle and get close to 100mi or range... That's what efficiency does for you. Too bad the factory's claims were treated as too good to be true, otherwise many more on the forum would enjoy transportation like I have, and maybe we could have created enough demand to keep them in production. Oh well, at least I have enough for myself despite making them available to all at essentially cost.
larsb
1 MW
Read the thread on rewinding revolt motor..
When you guesstimate copper fill i weighed it and also calculate the fill exactly. 22%
I bet you a pizza, delivered to your house that you are not even close to the correct fill percent in your other guesses.. 80% is impossible to wind.
You still haven't learned a lot and continue to post misleading data.
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
Let's not forget that we're all brothers in arms, fighting for the same interests and not against each other. I'm learning a ton from all of you, despite of (or thanks to) different approaches. Thanks a lot ElectricGod, Larsb, John, neptronix etc.etc.etc.!
Let's give revolt a chance to prove that they learned some lessons. I'm opting for a RV-160Es, so I'm very much interested in the tests of you guys.
Let's give revolt a chance to prove that they learned some lessons. I'm opting for a RV-160Es, so I'm very much interested in the tests of you guys.
ElectricGod said:
You will never find out by just looking at them
I must think about a situation where two people are standing in front of a painting and one says he likes it and the other one not.
If you do a comparison of two different motors, you should at least do PERFORMANCE relevant measurements what you have not done so far.
It is hard to believe for me too that you spent the money for three new motors without knowing if the first one you bought one year ago performs good or rather not.
larsb
1 MW
The problem at ES is that people here are fixing the manufacturers issues. The "single bad soldering" happened to other users and the motors just died since the solder melted. I am pretty sure user "dauntless" or "boisrondevens" had it, can find it if i look a little, One of my two motors had this issue.
If i ask like this: did they improve between 2014 and 2019? Answer is: not as far as we can see in their quality.
Please remind, that kind of issue is a stopper. It's fixed with some hassle for the diy guy but it's still not acceptable. Don't buy their crap..
If i ask like this: did they improve between 2014 and 2019? Answer is: not as far as we can see in their quality.
Please remind, that kind of issue is a stopper. It's fixed with some hassle for the diy guy but it's still not acceptable. Don't buy their crap..
ElectricGod
10 MW
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ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
larsb
1 MW
I have my adress ready for when you send that pizza.
onlinepizza.se will deliver straight to my door and i bet they take US credit cards
onlinepizza.se will deliver straight to my door and i bet they take US credit cards
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
larsb
1 MW
It's in my threads, can't you find it?
Let's just agree that some of us including me were lied to through the inflated specs and poor performance. I paid total 500usd but couldn't get a warranty replacement when the hall sensors didn't work (which i had proof on)
The poor copper fill, soldering etc was equally justifying the replacement.
User wheazel had issues, boisrondevens,johnnydrive, me. I can't remember a single happy user actually.
I wouldn't want to support the same company again with my cash, but that is what you are doing. Please stop calling it hating.
Let's just agree that some of us including me were lied to through the inflated specs and poor performance. I paid total 500usd but couldn't get a warranty replacement when the hall sensors didn't work (which i had proof on)
The poor copper fill, soldering etc was equally justifying the replacement.
User wheazel had issues, boisrondevens,johnnydrive, me. I can't remember a single happy user actually.
I wouldn't want to support the same company again with my cash, but that is what you are doing. Please stop calling it hating.
larsb
1 MW
neptronix said:
Maybe it's time for a group buy? I'll be happy to pay for one motor in the 500 usd range later this year. Even though shipping cost would be less than optimal
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
EG your passion and intrigue is admirable. Your past posts are a great read and stand out from many others on here. As an average consumer you get my vote. Anyway keep posting and disregard the non helpful comments, as it is only words on a screen. Nothing more. Others please feel free to comment on what i have said. I wont respond. I like the wealth of information that is available here as there are great minds and unfortunately the usual disruptive forum keyboard warriors.
EG please continue...................
EG please continue...................
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
When going through this thread it seems like you do not have much interest to do and share the measurements because so far it is only a discussion about what you like and what you dislike from the looking and some mechanical aspects.
This is a bit annoying as the thread says "motor review and comparisons" which should be changed then to something like "pictures of revolt motor internals".
I must say that i am with larsb as the work he had put into his RV120 review and rewinding was quite helpful for potential buyers (like me).
EG you mentioned that the latest batches of the Regular or PRO versions might be better as older ones... I dont think they are as every manufacturer would at least give them the name V2 then or something like that, but i still have hope that you do the measurements.
This is a bit annoying as the thread says "motor review and comparisons" which should be changed then to something like "pictures of revolt motor internals".
I must say that i am with larsb as the work he had put into his RV120 review and rewinding was quite helpful for potential buyers (like me).
EG you mentioned that the latest batches of the Regular or PRO versions might be better as older ones... I dont think they are as every manufacturer would at least give them the name V2 then or something like that, but i still have hope that you do the measurements.
ElectricGod
10 MW
dead thread
